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  4. MIR Pro 3D in Logic Pro - channel count

  • MIR Pro 3D in Logic Pro - channel count

    R
    R

    Hello Dietz!

    Just now starting to play around with MP3D in my newly installed 7.1.4 setup in my studio! Much fun! However, I'm trying to work out some initial glitches to get me started.

    In LPX, I'm choosing 7.1.4 as the format. And then adding the 7.1.4 version of the MP3D plugin. However, when selecting the 7.1.4 preset in immersive format, I get a warning for wrong number of channels (as per the attached image). I'm trying to figure out how to think about this and how to get it right.
    The output section of MP3D shows 12 channels, so I'm not really sure which are the 11 channels referred to. Is that because there's no LFE among the virtual loudspeakers?

    PS, the channels doesn't correspond to the logic setup, but I suppose I can just change that in the Decoder Output Matrix to make sure each channel goes to the right place in Logic?

    Image
  • DietzD
    VSL Team
    DietzD

    This is a *cough* not completely streamlined part of MIR 3D's Output Format Editor. 8-)

    Due to the many variables to take into account when working in 3D in general, and with varying Ambisonics orders in different DAWs in particular, it's very easy to confuse the engine while setting up a mix. As a somewhat embarrassing workaround, I suggest that you simply ignore the message as long as you see the right number of outputs in the Output Format Editor.

    ... we'll try to make this a bit less messy, that's for sure. Thanks for your patience!

    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  • R
    R

    I'm very very excited about this in any case, so no need to apologize. Happy to help reporting on any issues regarding integration with Logic, as well as doing experiments, if needed.

    So this mean, as I understand it, that there is nothing to assign to the LFE channel?

    Also, I can't quite get the ceiling channels to play ball. There seems to be no signal present going from MP3D to Logic in the Top Surround Rear mics, even though those are present in the virtual loudspeaker list, as well as in the matrix. Unlike the other channels, I don't get anything into Logic from them..
  • DietzD
    VSL Team
    DietzD

    It's important that the VERY FIRST plug-in in a session is instantiated in a channel with the desired output format already - this will determine all other instances. 

    It's also easy to choose a wrong Output Format in MIR 3D itself: Formats that are labeled something like "7.(1).4" take the LFE channel into account, but don't route any signal to it. Formats with labels like "5.0" will actually omit the LFE channel altogether.

    ... apart from that there might also be Logic-specific issues you're running into. In this case please get in contact with support@vsl.co.at - I can't test in Logic here ATM.

    TIA!

    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  • R
    R

    Right, maybe I can email support. There are some weird things going on regarding ceiling channels.

    All ways I've tried it, in a 7.1.4 setting, the virtual speakers / matrix display the following behaviour:
    The fader volume of TFL raises volume in both TFL and TFR channels. (TFR fader does nothing)
    Same with TRL/TRR.
    However, they also seem to be re-ordered, so its actually not TFL/TFR/TRL/TRR, like it says in the mixer.

    TFL controls output to TFL (and TRL). But TFR does not control TFR (and TRR) as might be expected. Rather, It is the TRR fader that controls those two channels.

    To make it clear:
    TFL: controls TFL and TRL
    TFR: does nothing
    TRL: does nothing
    TRR: controls TFR and TRR.

    This has the odd effect that in a 7.1.2 setting, I'm not able to get any sound at all from the Right side, since those faders needed are no longer present in the matrix display.
  • Dewdman42D
    Dewdman42D
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    @Dietz said:

    It's important that the VERY FIRST plug-in in a session is instantiated in a channel with the desired output format already - this will determine all other instances. 

    This is important point!  One question, if I setup a project in my DAW...and setup MirPro3D on numerous channels, starting with the first one for sure establishing the channel count format I want...  Fine so far...then let's say I decide I need to drop the project back to stereo of whatever.  Is that possible and if so what would be the correct approach?  I guess remove all the MirPro plugin instances, so that MirPro3D has an empty stage...and then add the first one again with the channel format I want and then add all the rest.  Will this work, will MirPro3D adjust to this change, or what would be the correct way to go for quickly changing the channel configuration in an existing project?
  • HelmholtzH
    HelmholtzH

    *sigh*

    Give Dietz a break ...

    RTFM

    "The US 1st Amendment does NOT allow you to yell "FIRE!" falsely in a packed cinema, nor in an online forum." ~ Dobi (60kg Cane da pastore Maremmano-Abruzzese)
  • DietzD
    VSL Team
    DietzD
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    @Dewdman42 said:

    [...] what would be the correct way to go for quickly changing the channel configuration in an existing project?

    Vers. 1: Start with the maximum channel count you will need for a project and implement the "more narrow" formats there. You can use a stereo setting in MIR 3D even when you started in an 5.1.4 format, but not the other way round. - This is a very comfortable way to keep things "live" without changing the session of the hosting DAW, but you need to know the Do's and Dont's of your DAW when you plan to print mixes in different formats in this setup.

    Vers. 2: Create Roles for your signal sources and recall them in your new project in Venue with a different Outupt Format setting. .- That can be considered the "official" way. 😊

    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  • Dewdman42D
    Dewdman42D

    Thanks Dietz.  I will look into roles more.  once I have a work flow with developed roles I'm sure that will become easier to rebuild up a project from scratch.

    I did manage last night to setup my first larger orch project through MirPro3D in LogicPro...using 7.1.4 and well, basically my cheese grater can't handle it. hehe.  So then I'd like to quickly try to do it at say 5.0.2, but sounds like in order to both reduce the CPU overhead I would need to actually change the channel configuration most likely yea?  Or if I use a 5.0.2 mic array in the 7.1.4 configuration...will MirPro3D automatically use less CPU by virtue of no audio on some channels?

    Most likely my cheese grater won't be able to keep up with that either..so after that I will just go back to 5.1 or even quad for now until I can afford a better computer. 

    But from the sounds of it...without having roles, etc...There isn't really a simple way to change the channel configuration on the fly so to speak...basically would need to rebuild up the project, well at least rebuild up the MirPro3D plugins, not necessarily rebuild the whole DAW project...and then as you say..if I have some roles at least I can reuse them.  I have some old MirPro presets I used the last time, but they aren't roles, they are specific for each channel, but it was still pretty cumbersome to have to load them one at a time, 100 channels...
  • DietzD
    VSL Team
    DietzD
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    @Another User said:

    [...]they aren't roles, they are specific for each channel, but it was still pretty cumbersome to have to load them one at a time, 100 channels...

    You build Roles from these channels by assigning a name and saving it in a Venue Preser. Copy/paste of the channel name is a good starting point, most likely, as long you have a somewhat meaningful way of naming your DAW's tracks.

    It's drag'n'drop once this is first step is done. - It won't get much simpler than that. 😊 .... maybe we'll introduce a feature to name Roles automatically, but that won't happen soon, and it means just one step less effort for the user.

    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  • R
    R

    Hi Dietz

    Sorry to bother, I just wanted to check if you saw my reply before the next guy came into the discussion? It described a pretty odd behavior in the ceiling outputs. Is this something you recognize? Or can this have to do with how MP3D communicates back to Logic somehow?
  • DietzD
    VSL Team
    DietzD

    Hi Rasmus,

    like I wrote - I can't test Logic here. We'll have to wait for the development people to chime in.

    Thanks for your patience!

    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  • Dewdman42D
    Dewdman42D
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    @Rasmus Faber said:

    Right, maybe I can email support. There are some weird things going on regarding ceiling channels.

    I guess check LogicPro global preferences,  under IO Assignments.  Presuming you have the project settings for surround set to 7.1.4, the global settings still have ability to define a bit of where the different channels go to.  I don't know if that is related to your issue or not, but its only thing I can think of.  I don't completely understand the issue you're having, but I can try to replicate it here on my LogicPro if you help me understand what is going wrong.
  • Dewdman42D
    Dewdman42D
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    @Another User said:

    [...]they aren't roles, they are specific for each channel, but it was still pretty cumbersome to have to load them one at a time, 100 channels...

    You build Roles from these channels by assigning a name and saving it in a Venue Preser. Copy/paste of the channel name is a good starting point, most likely, as long you have a somewhat meaningful way of naming your DAW's tracks.

    Thanks its on my radar to check out roles for sure...just haven't gotten there yet.  Just had the old saved presets from previous version of MirPro...  After I convert them to Roles I will see how wonderful it is.

    In the meantime, my thoughts in general about how to switch around between channel configurations are basically if you have a powerful enough machine, then like you said, set it up as 7.1.4 and use whichever downmix preset in MP3D that makes sense.  That does take a considerable hit to the CPU though, at least it does here for me on LogicPro.

    In order to change the actual channel configuration used by MP3D, near as I can tell, the process is to remove all MP3D plugin instances from the DAW, and then add them back with the new channel configuration.  This seems to do the right thing in MP3D.  Actually in LogicPro when I just change the surround configuration, it asks me if I want to attempt to convert the project, then it goes through and replaces all the MP3D plugins and this has the effect of updating MP3D to that channel configuration.

    But just to be safe, I feel its wise after that to save the DAW project and basically shutdown LogicPro and and restart it and reload the project with that new configuration, in which case it loads into MP3D probably with that new configuration.  That is easier and faster then trying to rebuild up the daw project from scratch again using either presets or roles.
  • R
    R

    @Dietz: I see, ok! I'll assume this behaviour doesn't have an explanation within MP3D then, I'll email support and see if I can get somewhere!

    @Dewdman: I'd be very interested to know if you are getting all the ceiling channels to work correctly back from MP3D, in 7.1.4. I can't get it to work like it should (as per my post). The reason is not about the physical outputs, but before that, it happens at the level of what MP3D is sending back to Logic. 
  • Dewdman42D
    Dewdman42D
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    @Rasmus Faber said:


    @Dewdman: I'd be very interested to know if you are getting all the ceiling channels to work correctly back from MP3D, in 7.1.4. I can't get it to work like it should (as per my post). The reason is not about the physical outputs, but before that, it happens at the level of what MP3D is sending back to Logic. 

    I think I had it working properly, but my CPU can't handle 7.1.4 so I am using 5.1.2 mode now and it sounds great and all seems to work as expected.

    I'm not sure I understood exactly the problem you were having?

    So basically you have to make sure you do the following things in the following order:

    1. create your project.  Set it up for 7.1.4 surround through Project settings.

    2. create the first instrument channel, assign the output to surround.  Put an instrument on it

    3. Put the first MirPro3D plugin into the FX slot of that instrument channel, make sure you select 7.1.4 as the output format for that plugin.  This first MP3D plugin instance will determine the channel configuration that MP3D will use for the whole project from then on out.

    4. Open up the main MP3D GUI and select one of the 3D Immersive OutputFormat presets, for 7.1.4

    At this point you should be able to play your instrument, position the icon on the stage and you should be seeing signals on 11 meters coming back (LFE is skipped).  You will see these coming into the MP3D plugin GUI meter...as well as the channel strip of LogicPro.

    Make sure you aren't soloing Dry.  make sure you have at least a little bit of wet for the room.
  • R
    R

    Hi guys, and update! Marnix came back to me with a an updated version which fixed the problem immediately, that was great!!
  • DietzD
    VSL Team
    DietzD

    The update also fixes a similar problem with the routing of MIR 3D in ProTools.

    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library