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Fair or unfair?
Last post Tue, Dec 06 2005 by Martin Bayless, 43 replies.
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Posted on Sat, Dec 03 2005 11:06
by tele
Joined on Wed, Jan 12 2005, Posts 110
Hi everyone

I posted a poll over at KVR to ask people if they find it ok that there is no upgrade path to the standard edition or not.
There were quite some people here who found that OK (not me [Wink] ).
It'll be interesting to see, how different the same poll is gonna be in here, I bet it will not be as over there at KVR.
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=113700

Please only civilised answers in this thread and no bad manners. Cool

tele
Posted on Sat, Dec 03 2005 12:14
by mike harper
Joined on Fri, Dec 20 2002, Atlanta, Ga USA, Posts 219
I dont know!! when you look at the content of the extented version it seems thats where you want to go and it seems most of the discount is there.
I guess they can offer it anyhow to the std ed and just apply the difference when they upgrade to the ext version. I think Herb addressed this somewhere as making even more difficult on the reseller.
Regards
Posted on Sat, Dec 03 2005 12:22
by Holgmeister
Joined on Fri, Feb 13 2004, Odenwald, Posts 141
I am sick and tired of all this GEWINSEL about pricing and unfair.
Get over it. This is the World and that is how they is turning.

If you think it is unfair go and howl, when the full moon rise.

Does anyone has a topic which is about actual DOING music?

Gee, even the question is so childish.
Orchestral Noise and Magick
Symphonic Cube, Piano, Prepared Piano and MIR24
Posted on Sat, Dec 03 2005 12:25
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
I'm afraid that your poll is rather unfair, as it glosses over what you really get for the money, and is rather simplistic.

FWIW I think that VSL is one of the few companies that would let you run a poll like this on their own forum and should be commended. I have to say that if anyone tries to beat down my fees or start some sort of action against them I put them up for that client, so beware Big Smile

DG
Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
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Posted on Sat, Dec 03 2005 12:25
by tele
Joined on Wed, Jan 12 2005, Posts 110
Holgmeister wrote:
I am sick and tired of all this GEWINSEL about pricing and unfair.
Get over it. This is the World and that is how they is turning.
If you think it is unfair go and howl, when the full moon rise.
Does anyone has a topic which is about actual DOING something?


Please only polite answers. Thank you.

tele
Posted on Sat, Dec 03 2005 12:28
by tele
Joined on Wed, Jan 12 2005, Posts 110
DG wrote:
I'm afraid that your poll is rather unfair, as it glosses over what you really get for the money, and is rather simplistic.
DG


How good that there is more than one opinion and viewpoint in our world. Smile
I respect your answer and polite replies of disagreement like yours are very welcome.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts

tele
Posted on Sat, Dec 03 2005 12:35
by Holgmeister
Joined on Fri, Feb 13 2004, Odenwald, Posts 141
tele wrote:
Holgmeister wrote:


Please only polite answers. Thank you.

tele


can you grow up and get a life? thx, welcome -
Orchestral Noise and Magick
Symphonic Cube, Piano, Prepared Piano and MIR24
Posted on Sat, Dec 03 2005 13:22
by PaulR
Joined on Mon, Dec 22 2003, England, Posts 2370
Tele

What you have to understand is this. In business, there is no such thing as fair or unfair. There is profit and there is loss - neither of which is fair or unfair.

I understand that you and I and everyone else wants to pay less for everything in the world.

For instance, I pay council tax of £185 per month. For that I get my bin emptied once a week and there is a street light somewhere. That's just one bill I and everyone else here has NO choice in paying.

You could of course get VSL to cave in and take the view that they have not done their financial homework with regard to working it through with their financial consultants - ie bank, accountants etc. So they could cave in and give us what we want for 10 pence and then go out of business and then you and I would be moaning about the loss of a forward thinking company. And that goes for EW and any other company out there that makes sample libraries - or any widget. I've seen in my old career. more companies go down through cash flow problems, than any other reason.
Posted on Sat, Dec 03 2005 14:17
by tele
Joined on Wed, Jan 12 2005, Posts 110
PaulR wrote:
Tele
What you have to understand is this. In business, there is no such thing as fair or unfair. There is profit and there is loss - neither of which is fair or unfair.


Almost a philosophical answer. Smile

PaulR wrote:
So they could cave in and give us what we want for 10 pence


[Indifferent] how did you know that this was exactly the price I was thinking of? Ick!

tele
Posted on Sat, Dec 03 2005 17:47
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7339
Actually you'll pay considerably less for a single sample, Tele. You know that by now, don't you? (... oh, and you could post _this_ fact on the Keyboards.de-forum, too! Wink ...)
/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Sat, Dec 03 2005 17:58
by cm
Joined on Fri, Dec 20 2002, vienna, Posts 9074
tele, it will be very interesting to track the result, although unfortunately the question itself is not valid. you cannot upgrade from opus 1 to the first edition, you cannot upgrade from solo strings to saxophones and there is no upgrade path neither from a VSL sample library to a virtual instrument standard nor from apples to pears.
in your case there _is_ an upgrade path from horizon chamber strings to virtual instruments chamber strings full - it costs 525 EUR and your discount is 565 on the full price of 1.090.
please compare the existing and new content as well as the different content of the standard and extended library - things should become obvious then
christian

ps: i can't remember who said it, but - to get the right answers you have to ask the right questions ....
and remember: a CRAY is the only computer that runs an endless loop in just four hours ...
Posted on Sat, Dec 03 2005 18:00
by metrobot
Joined on Sat, Jan 29 2005, Los Angeles, Posts 74
PaulR wrote:
Tele

What you have to understand is this. In business, there is no such thing as fair or unfair. There is profit and there is loss - neither of which is fair or unfair.

I understand that you and I and everyone else wants to pay less for everything in the world.

For instance, I pay council tax of £185 per month. For that I get my bin emptied once a week and there is a street light somewhere. That's just one bill I and everyone else here has NO choice in paying.

You could of course get VSL to cave in and take the view that they have not done their financial homework with regard to working it through with their financial consultants - ie bank, accountants etc. So they could cave in and give us what we want for 10 pence and then go out of business and then you and I would be moaning about the loss of a forward thinking company. And that goes for EW and any other company out there that makes sample libraries - or any widget. I've seen in my old career. more companies go down through cash flow problems, than any other reason.


VSL is going to pay your council tax? that's pretty cool!
I'm just too lazy
Posted on Sat, Dec 03 2005 19:40
by tele
Joined on Wed, Jan 12 2005, Posts 110
Dietz wrote:
Actually you'll pay considerably less for a single sample, Tele. You know that by now, don't you? (... oh, and you could post _this_ fact on the Keyboards.de-forum, too! Wink ...)


Hey Dietz.
First I would like to acknowledge you and the other VSL staff for being very professional in responding to this type of thread.

There is no doubt to me that the price per sample is really ok.
As I posted on the KVR Forum forum
Quote:
The upgrade path to the VI Complete Edition is very ok, though.

and it's a pleasure to me to post the same info at the keyboards.de frorum.
here's the german quote that I put there upon your request Cool
Quote:
Ich möchte fairerweise ergänzen, dass sich mein "Wiederspruch" nicht auf alles und jedes bezieht. Nur darauf, dass es keinen Upgrade/Sidegrade von VSL Chamber Strings zu der Chamber Strings Standard Edition gibt.
Der Upgradepreis zur vollen Version, Complete Edition is sehr fair.


tele

Still, my opinion remains, there is a missing path for me to the standard edition. Wink

tele
Posted on Sat, Dec 03 2005 20:11
by hermitage59
Joined on Fri, Mar 25 2005, The Slavic Cultural Empire, Posts 1050
Quote:
tele

Still, my opinion remains, there is a missing path for me to the standard edition.


Are you telling us you're the missing link?

I never would have guessed.
[i:d09f9c4039][color=blue:d09f9c4039][size=11:d09f9c4039]Orchestration is the art of making your own choice.....
Genius is the art of making the right choice....[/size:d09f9c4039][/color:d09f9c4039][/i:d09f9c4039]
Posted on Sat, Dec 03 2005 21:16
by tele
Joined on Wed, Jan 12 2005, Posts 110
hermitage59 wrote:
Are you telling us you're the missing link?


Did you understand it that way?

tele
Posted on Sat, Dec 03 2005 21:47
by tele
Joined on Wed, Jan 12 2005, Posts 110
cm wrote:
and there is no upgrade path neither from a VSL sample library to a virtual instrument standard nor from apples to pears.

I thought we're into samples here, not into fruits [[Wink]]

cm wrote:
in your case there _is_ an upgrade path from horizon chamber strings to virtual instruments chamber strings full - it costs 525 EUR and your discount is 565 on the full price of 1.090.

This is a great way for those who like to go it and the discount is very acceptable. The Standard Edition doesn't look less "upgrade-worthy" to me.


Doesn't the Chamber String Standard Edition also come with samples from the Horizon Chamber Strings?
FAQ wrote:
The Standard Library contains some of the Pro Edition sounds and some new stuff, while the Extended Library includes all of the Pro Edition – and lots of new stuff.
However, many of the existing articulations were completely redesigned to adapt
them to the improved algorithms of the Vienna Instruments software.


Looking at your links for the Chamber Strings articulation lists, it looks like there are quite some articulations/samples that made their way to the Standard Edition. Or to use your example of apples and pears - looks like there's quite some apples in use, just like the apples that are already on my HD. [[Wink]]

Quote:

ps: i can't remember who said it, but - to get the right answers you have to ask the right questions ....


It's very intersting to see that the quota here is much different from the quota at KVR. This one here seems to be more representative for the VSL user base.

Maybe I should have chosen other words for my poll, like
Question: Would an upgrade path from Chamber Strings Horizon to Standard series be adequate?
Answer1: No, this would not be an upgrade, since it's apples and pears Smile
Answer2: Yes, an upgrade path to the Standard Edition would be adequate.

We could do a new poll with a choice of your own words on the topic, I don't believe the result would be very different. [[Wink]] (As long as you'd stick to the topic and not ask "who is the best looking actor in the world" Ick! )

tele
Posted on Sat, Dec 03 2005 22:13
by steff3
Joined on Thu, Nov 13 2003, Posts 268
Tele,

I have pretty much mixed feelings about the upgrade and the VI. But I think the explanation you gave on KVR might be confusing. (It is the Full version of Chamber Strings or Solo Strings - as the complete Lib I would consider the cube itself)

Another point towards Chamber Strings or Solo Strings - there were the most complete thing VSL and anybody else could offer for solo- or chamber strings (Solo Stings was more complete as Pro Edition in this domain) - so for me it is completely acceptable, that the upgrade goes to the Full version of those libs.
One could argue if he needs the samples of extended or not - ... Did I always need all the samples of Solo Strings (I mean ALL of them) - it was always nice to have them for the case...

My more critizing points I have told a few times now - so I do not want to add them again. It is generally concerning the users of Horizon Opus, Epic Horns, French Oboe, WW ensemble, etc.
I think Herb and VSL is already reconsidering a Opus VI and maybe they will also reconsider individual instruments.

Best,
Steff
Posted on Sat, Dec 03 2005 22:39
by hermitage59
Joined on Fri, Mar 25 2005, The Slavic Cultural Empire, Posts 1050
steff3 wrote:
Tele,


My more critizing points I have told a few times now - so I do not want to add them again. It is generally concerning the users of Horizon Opus, Epic Horns, French Oboe, WW ensemble, etc.
I think Herb and VSL is already reconsidering a Opus VI and maybe they will also reconsider individual instruments.

Best,
Steff


This is based on assumption of your own POV, and those few who may be like minded. Since last saturday, for as many posts that have banged on relentlessly about the unfairness, implied scam, etc. there have posts from more people interested in this brand new product. What IS fact is the large number of posts by those few who want to try and force VSL to change their business model, and the realtively few posts from a greater number of people who like the product and the potential it offers.

If you then try and tell me that you like the product buit think it's overpriced, and you still want a discount, then you will confirm a belief many may have that you want it but can't afford it, and this is your way of trying to change that in your favour.
The decision to buy is yours, the price is there in front of you, you can see what the product has to offer, and so the decision is yours to make, not VSL's to compensate for your lack of income, or other reason you may have to continue this resentment.
I don't imply any ill will in this, but i am saddened at this continued flogging of a dead horse. It just seems to imply satisfying ego rather than valid constructive intelligent debate.

Tele, if there's one thing i find singularly irritating, it is polls run by people trying to reinforce a worn point. By running a poll at this stage after the 'dust has settled', you imply to me that you're determined to tarnish VSL's reputation in any way you can, regardless of the consequences to other users. you give little consideration to the impact on others who may be considering a purchase and are undecided which way to jump. Polls like this are decidely tacky, and lack class.

I don't like your smartass answers, not because you're not entitled to make your point, but you don't actually offer anything new or constructive, just the same implication that VSL are robbing you of something, and are capable of doing this in the first place.
If you actually assume VSL would think this way, try starting a poll damning the product at EW. You wouldn't last 5 minutes.

No doubt you will continue to push this, trying to make it as public as possible in your favour.
I suspect fewer and fewer will listen.
[i:d09f9c4039][color=blue:d09f9c4039][size=11:d09f9c4039]Orchestration is the art of making your own choice.....
Genius is the art of making the right choice....[/size:d09f9c4039][/color:d09f9c4039][/i:d09f9c4039]
Posted on Sat, Dec 03 2005 23:11
by Beaswax
Joined on Thu, Oct 06 2005, Posts 40
Of course, you're pretty pissed off after you hear the announcement. But then you realize how the world is and peopole will do what they have to do to make some money....

I'm just hoping that VSL remembers something about customer loyalty down the line...
Posted on Sat, Dec 03 2005 23:29
by hermitage59
Joined on Fri, Mar 25 2005, The Slavic Cultural Empire, Posts 1050
Beaswax wrote:
Of course, you're pretty pissed off after you hear the announcement. But then you realize how the world is and peopole will do what they have to do to make some money....

I'm just hoping that VSL remembers something about customer loyalty down the line...


This is only my opinion, but i think customer loyalty has never been absent from the VSL business model. And the 'pissed off' bit as you so eloquently put it, was a result of looking only at the price, and not what you got for your cash. The step VSL took was always going to be challenging, and the discounts offered compared to other products and customer bases have been fair.

When eveyrone's up and running, and taking advantage of this amazing new technology, it will be interesting to see if users down the line remember the generous (IMHO) package VSL offered.....................

Alex.
[i:d09f9c4039][color=blue:d09f9c4039][size=11:d09f9c4039]Orchestration is the art of making your own choice.....
Genius is the art of making the right choice....[/size:d09f9c4039][/color:d09f9c4039][/i:d09f9c4039]
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