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New Epic String Library development - get Thomas J involved!
Last post Wed, May 31 2006 by rinky, 74 replies.
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Posted on Sat, Dec 31 2005 21:14
by Rob Elliott
Joined on Sun, Feb 02 2003, Salt Lake City, UT, Posts 1654
http://finjaco.home.online.no/1.mp3


I hope I don't tick someone off by being so bold but as Herb company prepare to make their first 'Epic String' recordings, please SERIOUSLY consider the following...

http://finjaco.home.online.no/1.mp3

This is simply the BEST 'sampled' string section that I have ever heard. Thomas has captured that rich lush quality we all so want (his private library using K2 scripting).

You worked with Thomas on Epic Horns and I bet those sales were through the roof!! Develop something like this or even better and it will simply be your biggest selling library to date.

I would pay $1,200-1,500 based on this demo alone. I cannot think of any instrument / section that is needed more!

Your thoughts?


Rob
what would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail?
Posted on Sat, Dec 31 2005 21:32
by JBacal
Joined on Sat, Mar 27 2004, Posts 1206
I second the motion! ThomasJ has achieved a lovely quality. I especially liked the second violins-- lots of warmth and expression-- all the more impressive because of the repeated nature of the phrase.

Best,
Jay
Posted on Sat, Dec 31 2005 23:22
by wolfgang
Joined on Fri, Jun 13 2003, Long Island, NY, Posts 134
Extremely impressive. I would love to be able to achieve a sound like that with sampled strings.
Posted on Sun, Jan 01 2006 01:32
by tomhartman
Joined on Fri, May 07 2004, Florida, Posts 567
Cellos aren't chopped liver either.

Great stuff.

I want one. Wink

TH
Posted on Sun, Jan 01 2006 06:34
by dunk187
Joined on Mon, Oct 04 2004, SF Bay Area, Posts 164
How do you know this was done with Samples? I listened to it a few times and I actually heard some ambient sound from people playing the part (Like a chair squeak, and a little cough). Unless the composer actually added these artifacts, I think it was a live performance.

-Ben
Posted on Sun, Jan 01 2006 06:57
by JBacal
Joined on Sat, Mar 27 2004, Posts 1206
ThomasJ is very fond of adding noises to his tracks sometimes including breathing from the "musicians." Definately adds to the illusion.

Best,
Jay
Posted on Sun, Jan 01 2006 13:25
by nliberg
Joined on Fri, Dec 02 2005, Posts 232
Very impressive indeed. There's more info in this thread at Northern Sounds Forum, but by all means please continue the discussion here. I'm very interested to hear what both VSL representatives and VSL users think about this. I get the feeling that VSL might better try to work together with these guys or else they could become serious competitors in the future... [Wink]

It's also interesting to see somebody use the Kontakt2 scripting possibilities to this extent. I believe VSL could have done a lot more smart things with KSP in their K2 libraries, but that they intentially refrained from doing so because they wanted all sampler platforms to be more or less equal, and because they were planning on moving to the new and richer VI platform.

Nils
Posted on Sun, Jan 01 2006 14:47
by Rob Elliott
Joined on Sun, Feb 02 2003, Salt Lake City, UT, Posts 1654
nliberg wrote:
Very impressive indeed. There's more info in this thread I'm very interested to hear what both VSL representatives and VSL users think about this. I get the feeling that VSL might better try to work together with these guys or else they could become serious competitors in the future... [[Wink]]


Nils


Exactly my point. This 'sound' IS what we have been all asking for. If these guys made this string library available - it would be a no brainer decision - at least for me - to purchase that library over any library currently available.

VSL - find some way to work with Thomas J who has already 'invented the wheel - so to speak' on getting this sound. Why spend years and lots of $$$$ on trying this or that when it can be achieved now (as proof has shown). This has become the new standard for expressive strings. It now 'dates' all strings libraries currently available.



Rob


(I just wanted the VSL team to clearly understand I believe in your porducts [[Wink]] - I have proven this with buying just about everything you have developed [just ordered the complete SC]. Get this string sound now with Thomas J- which I think you would have 'eventually' done anyways - would just put you over the top of any other developer out their. Thank you for giving this serious consideration and given us the proper tools to make our livings in such a competitive industry.)
what would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail?
Posted on Sun, Jan 01 2006 16:38
by Craig Sharmat
Joined on Wed, Oct 16 2002, Woodland Hills, Posts 416
I think most people are missing the forest through the trees. While TJ's sounds are good (I should know as I was on that session team), It is his understanding of the instruments and how to get samples to phrase correctly that is key. Lets say for instance that TJ was given only VSL to use and you only had TJ's sounds, once TJ did his mockup you would be wanting VSL. That's not to say what we recorded isn't good, it is, but most people are looking at the samples as the problem, and there are enough tools here to do better work than you are currently doing. A knowledgeble composer and programmer can make the tools do what they want.

Not convinced?

check TJ's work on VSL,SAM's and EW....DO IT!. If you are positive you are writing this well, then you can take issue with the sounds, if not, do some soul searching and then figure out how to get to the next level. a new library will give instant gratification but after the wow factor wears off, you are still left with what you can do.
Posted on Sun, Jan 01 2006 17:02
by Rob Elliott
Joined on Sun, Feb 02 2003, Salt Lake City, UT, Posts 1654
Craig Sharmat wrote:
I think most people are missing the forest through the trees. While TJ's sounds are good (I should know as I was on that session team), It is his understanding of the instruments and how to get samples to phrase correctly that is key. Lets say for instance that TJ was given only VSL to use and you only had TJ's sounds, once TJ did his mockup you would be wanting VSL. That's not to say what we recorded isn't good, it is, but most people are looking at the samples as the problem, and there are enough tools here to do better work than you are currently doing. A knowledgeble composer and programmer can make the tools do what they want.

Not convinced?

check TJ's work on VSL,SAM's and EW....DO IT!. If you are positive you are writing this well, then you can take issue with the sounds, if not, do some soul searching and then figure out how to get to the next level. a new library will give instant gratification but after the wow factor wears off, you are still left with what you can do.



Frankly, I am not convinced Big Smile

I have heard all these demos from TJ - many times - an none of them have this string sound - none of them. TJ - brilliantly writes to the library he is demo'ing. Craig - you know this better than anyone - we wrtie to the libraries (tools) we have. When we are being paid to wirte for a client we don't expose any of libraries weaknesses (we hide the worts, seams with every arranging, mixing tool we can think of, etc.).

What gets me excited about THIS demo is not the writing (although it is what you would expect to be produce by TJ). It is the TONE and expression that is so alive.

I want to be clear - I don't take issue with 'its not the wand but the witch' philosophy. I believe we all continually push for better arranging and orchestration skills. But there is just so much 'life' in these samples as demo'd.


Rob
what would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail?
Posted on Sun, Jan 01 2006 17:52
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5513
I don't know who is more correct on this debate. The only way to resolve this would be to hear the same people do this same piece with VSL samples. However I tend to agree with Craig Sharmat in that the useage of samples is often the cause of either a good or bad sound. This demo is very short, and it is easier to do something short that sounds good than an entire symphony.

Nevertheless, on this demo the acoustic dynamic range is perfect, the musical dynamics are extremely well done, the writing is nicely contrapuntal (rather than homophonic - the worst way to write for strings) and the timbres of the original recordings seem to come across better in the mix than any other samples I've heard. And obviously if VSL does more string recordings it will be a great thing.
Posted on Sun, Jan 01 2006 18:32
by Craig Sharmat
Joined on Wed, Oct 16 2002, Woodland Hills, Posts 416
I know that I do not purposely write to the strengths of the library I am demoing. If a library was that restrictive I would not waste my time. I will cover up problems as I go along if they occur, or edit to make the library do what I want, and I believe Thomas does the same thing. Again, I write for myself, I figure that will also create the best demo. the music is first and 2nd, the library is just the vehicle.
Posted on Sun, Jan 01 2006 21:17
by timkiel
Joined on Fri, Jun 06 2003, Posts 627
All interesting comments. Someone over on NS asked TJ to post the MIDI file for the piece, wouldn't it be a great idea for someone to take the same composition and play it through i) VSL Pro, ii) VSL VI (when its out [Wink] ) iii) EWQLSO and maybe even one or more of the other's.

It would be useful to do a "dry" run through and then finetune each piece to meet each libraries strenghts and cover its weaknesses. A lot of the realism seems also to be from the ambient hall the samples were recorded in.

Also, as I believe was mentioned on NS. these samples were recorded for a specific purpose/composition - the sampled stuff will not be generic enough to meet other needs. That I guess is the joy of a private library...

Guess we'll have to see if TJ posts that MIDI....
Intel Mac Pro (2 x 2.66 Xeon Dual Core, 8GB RAM, Nvidia 7300GT), RME Fireface 800, OS 10.6.4, Logic 9.1.1 (64-bit mode)
Posted on Sun, Jan 01 2006 22:04
by Craig Sharmat
Joined on Wed, Oct 16 2002, Woodland Hills, Posts 416
timkiel,

these samples were not made made for a composition. The midi file would be of some use but it would have to be tweaked for each lib and really the best person to do this would be TJ, and I know he couldn't be bothered. BTW most of the hall you hear was added in later.
Posted on Mon, Jan 02 2006 05:53
by tomhartman
Joined on Fri, May 07 2004, Florida, Posts 567
I have to agree with Rob.

TJ's work doing demos in the other libraries is great, but doesn't sound like this "private collection."

TH (JMHO)
Posted on Mon, Jan 02 2006 06:11
by Frederick
Joined on Thu, Sep 18 2003, Denver, Colorado USA, Posts 78
Personally I'm going with Craig on this one. All else being equal sample-wise in the end the tie breaker is going to be the writing and programming chops.
Frederick Russ
vi
Posted on Mon, Jan 02 2006 06:19
by Craig Sharmat
Joined on Wed, Oct 16 2002, Woodland Hills, Posts 416
Guys, i own the same library, and yes it is a different sound, and it is good, but it is the smallest denominator. You can go looking for the holy grail, but the only real place to find it is within.
Posted on Mon, Jan 02 2006 06:21
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5513
I'll drink to that.
Posted on Mon, Jan 02 2006 08:45
by Christian Marcussen
Joined on Mon, Nov 10 2003, Posts 1508
Take the solo cello example.... thats not just writing chops. Thats an awesome full, warm and expressivesound.
Posted on Mon, Jan 02 2006 13:45
by Lee Blaske
Joined on Tue, Nov 05 2002, Excelsior, MN, Posts 218
Rob Elliott wrote:
You worked with Thomas on Epic Horns and I bet those sales were through the roof!! Develop something like this or even better and it will simply be your biggest selling library to date.


Doesn't Thomas work for EW? If so, that could be a bit of a problem.

Lee Blaske
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