simulating double stops on solo strings

[JBacal]

Can one make any generalizations about timing and tuning of double stops?

Is the lower note usually played a fraction earlier than the higher note?

Do one or both notes start slightly flat and then rise to the pitch? Or does one or both of the notes go slightly sharp for an instant because of the additional pressure on the bow needed to play the double stop? Or is the tuning of the interval just "randomly" less percise than if 2 violins each played one of the notes?

What about vibrato? Can one or both of the notes have vibrato or are double stops usually played non-vibrato?

Thanks,
Jay

[DaveTubaKing]

Whoa! lots of questions - I shall await answers from the experts.

My limited understanding is double stops i.e 2 notes simultaneously, are usually expected to sound together because of course the bow can play on two strings at the same time.

Generally triple and quadruple stops can't sound together for that very reason and normally the lower one or two notes is played as a heavy grace note before the top two notes (the first notes being allowed to ring on hopefully whilst the top notes play).

I believe with the violin there are circumstances where in fact three notes can be played together if the bow is pressed hard enough so that the bow is playing over three strings - this will inevitably put most pressure on the middle string so balance between the notes is skew wiff!

That's a non string players take on part of your question. Hopefully it will encourage a real string player to come along and put me straight.

BTW one of the best double/triple/quadruple stopping examples i know is Elliot Carter's 1st String Quartet middle movement - some extraordinary stuff going on there (in fact his string 4tets are a veritable encyclopedia of all advaanced solo string technique - and fantastic music to boot!).

[DG]

@Another User said:

What about vibrato? Can one or both of the notes have vibrato or are double stops usually played non-vibrato?

Both notes can have vibrato, although it is often less than single notes do, partly due to physical limitations. 4ths and 5ths (and up to a point 8ves) should have less vibrato than other intervals.

DG

[JBacal]

Thanks Dave and DG,

DG-- I am REALLY interested in the tuning issues. When I program double stops that are perfectly (as perfect as equal temperment ever is) they just don't sound like double stops. What exactly is making the difference in the sound?

Thanks,
Jay

[DG]

@JBacal said:

Thanks Dave and DG,

DG-- I am REALLY interested in the tuning issues. When I program double stops that are perfectly (as perfect as equal temperment ever is) they just don't sound like double stops. What exactly is making the difference in the sound?

Thanks,
Jay

Equal temperament causes huge problems in string playing, especially double stops. Sympathetic resonance and resultant tones are two more factors in what makes a double stop sound the way that it does. Post some examples of a double stop that doesn't sound like it should and I may be able to explain why, although this could get very anal [:D]

DG

[gugliel]

The only extra comments beyond DG's accurate answers:

I believe triple stops most generally are played 1+2, to use DG's symbols, with only the tiniest of time differences betwee the start of sound on the middle string and the start of sound on the top string; quadruple stops, 2+2. Both will generally be started before the beat with the lowest string (and both classically written ON the beat). Double stops exactly at the same time.

"real" players will tune double stop intervals pure, for the most part, whether or not that's appropriate for the music.

As to simulation, using the vsl solo strings vibrato patches will not sound right for the most part (especially the 0.5 sec ). Use vibrato only for sustained moments in thirds or sixths, not for shorter double stops and not for 4th, 5th, 8ve; probably not for 2nds & 7ths (for 2nd or 7th, you'd want to vibrate the dissonant note and not vibrate the consonant note, I think, and that only if the finger position allows it).

[DG]

@gugliel said:

The only extra comments beyond DG's accurate answers:

I believe triple stops most generally are played 1+2, to use DG's symbols, with only the tiniest of time differences betwee the start of sound on the middle string and the start of sound on the top string; quadruple stops, 2+2. Both will generally be started before the beat with the lowest string (and both classically written ON the beat). Double stops exactly at the same time.

"real" players will tune double stop intervals pure, for the most part, whether or not that's appropriate for the music.

As to simulation, using the vsl solo strings vibrato patches will not sound right for the most part (especially the 0.5 sec ). Use vibrato only for sustained moments in thirds or sixths, not for shorter double stops and not for 4th, 5th, 8ve; probably not for 2nds & 7ths (for 2nd or 7th, you'd want to vibrate the dissonant note and not vibrate the consonant note, I think, and that only if the finger position allows it).

Good advice, except to say that 2+2 for a triple is more common than the other two versions I posted.

DG

Edit: I should have also said that it generally is not possible to vibrate one finger and not the other, as vibrato is not normally "produced" from the finger

[DaveTubaKing]

@JBacal said:

Thanks Dave and DG,

DG-- I am REALLY interested in the tuning issues. When I program double stops that are perfectly (as perfect as equal temperment ever is) they just don't sound like double stops. What exactly is making the difference in the sound?

Thanks,
Jay

I think it must be both an attack and vibrato thing and that none of the existing articulations adequately covers it. I suspect it would be almost impossible to re-create a good double stop (for solo strings) sound and what it actually needs is sampled double stops - that'll be another 500,000 samples then.

[DG]

@JBacal said:

Thanks Dave and DG,

DG-- I am REALLY interested in the tuning issues. When I program double stops that are perfectly (as perfect as equal temperment ever is) they just don't sound like double stops. What exactly is making the difference in the sound?

Thanks,
Jay

I think it must be both an attack and vibrato thing and that none of the existing articulations adequately covers it. I suspect it would be almost impossible to re-create a good double stop (for solo strings) sound and what it actually needs is sampled double stops - that'll be another 500,000 samples then.

I don't think attack necessarily has much to do with it, but vibrato is an issue. With a double stop both fingers vibrate at the same speed; this is never going to happen with 2 solos played together. This gives a particular sound.
The other major thing to remember is that certain notes in a double stop can only be played on adjacent strings and even then not necessarily in first position. Therefore with samples we could theoretically have the situation that both samples were recorded on the same string; not what you want for an "authentic" double stop.

DG