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Wow. i had a brilliant idea which came to my brain since a second. What if an Sample Player like the EXS24 MK2 would be able to play "MP3-SAMPLES" ! [  ] You got it ?! ('  ') MP3's sound to the most musical ear exactly identical to .aif or .wav files while .wav files are like 10 times bigger. If you close your eyes and compare an mp3 file (with lets say 160 KByte/sec compression compared with an uncompressed .aif file) you cannot hear the difference and say which one is the non compressed and which one the mp3 file ! (check it out) That means that all the RAM problem would be solved AT ONCE. We could hear no quality loss but would be able to load 10 times MORE samples. That means that we could load as much samples on JUST 1 Computer as if we would have 10 computers or imagine having a Powermac G5 with 40 (usable) GBytes of RAM instead of the poor 4 GByte limit we have at the moment. The Ram limitation problem would disapear at once and we would not be able to even hear any quality loss sorry that I'm repeating myself over and over again. But the solution is soooo stupid and simple that I can't even believe it I hadn't thought of that before. Because I have been thinking know for month day by day and even in the bed for a solution of having an entire orchestra on 1 computer even studying and reading all the incredible amazing projects and experiments of evenevans, stupid8track ... etc. and than after having thought day and night for month of it ... boooooom ... such a stupid and simple idea. I'll go for it and check if EXS can handle mp3 files know. Did anybody of you guys had the same idea and experiment with that before ? Does someone know a software-sampler which handles mp3's ? Maybe it could be enough to convert all samples refering to an instrument to mp3's leaving them with the file sufix .aif and relink it or something. Or someone yet has to program a solution for it. I'm not a freak in this area and have not much of knowledge. Just had the idea. I'm not saying that mp3's are a reemplacement for high-quality 24Bit samples ! (Of course I'm NOT saying such a thing) BUT until we don't have a super computer or a great 64 Bit Operating System which easily handles 32 GBytes of RAM and more to load a full orchestra at once, the mp3 solution would be a great relief in meantime wouldn't it ?
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Certainly there are some who think mp3 format is the scourge of electronic music---
---but I'm only purist some of the time---
Honestly, this idea is so obvious and simple that it's wonder it hasn't been discussed more often or sooner. It would be nice to have a side chain mp3 format library for everyday use-- faster loading, easier storage, larger numbers of samples loaded at once-- brilliant idea, imho. Would be nice to work with fewer worries about RAM limits, etc., or having to buy a new computer every time "new and better" software appears on the market.
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I'm no expert, but doesn't need a mp3 file much more CPU power for realtime decoding?
No problem for a single stream, but problematic for 100+ streams at the same time?
best
Herb
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herb wrote:I'm no expert, but doesn't need a mp3 file much more CPU power for realtime decoding?
No problem for a single stream, but problematic for 100+ streams at the same time?
best
Herb That is correct. Even a single stream can't be done with low buffer latency.
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Well unfortunateley Logic converts mp3 into the native (uncompressed) format before one can start working with those files. Otherwise one could test allready if the program can handle for example a playback of 64 Voices Polyphony easyly or if that allready makes problems. Searching in google I couldn't find software samplers yet whcih support mp3 playback. So it looks like there's no way to test the performance of a G5 (my G5) in combination with mp3 files at the moment. But hasn't Christian Teuscher made it possible to integrate this realtime-decompressing algorythm in the new Vienna Instruments ? Couldn't this technique be developed for creating mp3-decompressing Vienna Instruments for example ?
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Yes. And the same holds true for M4A's (AAC).
But hooray for thinking outside the box. I'd happily overlook the diminished audio quality with that kind of RAM savings for a sketch orchestra.
I've made "low ram" versions of some chief VSL instruments. As a rule, VSL "Basic" instruments strip off some velocity layers. To me, it's better to cherry-pick the zones and stretch them across two or three keys, with all velocities intact. The purist in me resists it either way, but it has allowed me to manage a small core orchestra on one computer, with room for per-song instruments.
I've wondered if Keymap might automate this cherry-picking process. Deleting a whole velocity group is easy, but individually picking and stretching zones is tedious in the current EXS editor.
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perhaps i am wrong ? but, all the limit isn't the sample but the memory inside the exs . The exs instrument are limited and if the exs instrument file is connected to a .aif .wav .mp3 will not do a difference about the limit of ram inside logic and specially exs ?
After a mp3 could be more quicly read, but if the "command file" i mean the exs instrument is limited to 2go in logic, what to do ?
______________________________________________
Thierry Ecuvillon : Composer (france)
Opus 1+2/ Solo Strings / Overdrive/Saxophone1 /Logic Pro X / Exs 24 / Altiverb/VE Pro 6
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The other problem you get with mp3 is for editing.
It maybe that at higher bit rates you can't tell the difference between an AIFF and an mp3, but you start to notice the difference when it comes to applying effects, and editing. That's when it all starts to show what got lost.
Mp3 is fine as a finished source, but there is a good reason that musicians find that format terrible to work with in the studio. Though some people (DJ's mainly) don't really care so long as they hear what they want to hear.
Hetoreyn http://www.hetoreyn.com
Mac Pro 2013 - 3.5 ghz, 32 Gig RAM (Master) 27 inch iMac i5 2.7 Ghz 16 Gig RAM (Slave) Pro-Tools 12 (Native), Mbox Pro 3 Logic ProX Notion SLE VI Pro, VE Pro, MIR, Vienna Suite, Omnisphere, Slate Digital Plugs.
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Plowman wrote:I've wondered if Keymap might automate this cherry-picking process. Deleting a whole velocity group is easy, but individually picking and stretching zones is tedious in the current EXS editor. In Keymap there's indeed a "simplify mapping" function for that, which only requires a couple parameters and a mouse click. You can also "cherry pick" zones and let Keymap expand them automatically. Generally speaking, we have found that simplified mappings, coupled with velocity *and* note crossfades give very good results. Here's a short no-frills test video about how "simplify mapping, note/velocity crossfading and dynamics remap" works: http://www.redmatica.com/movies/KeymapFD145.movWe will have a full set of movies for all the important Keymap features, because, as they say, "seeing is believing".... Best Regards Andrea at Redmatica
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Hi Hetoreyn !
Its exactly as you said. Mp3 is fine as a finished source : For example Orchestra libraries where there is really no need to edti any sample. Who really wants to edit samples of a "ready to use" library ? I think only 1 % of the owners of orchestra libraries edited even one single sample of such a huge library. I edit some samples here and ther from Drum libraries but not huge Orchestra libraries !!
After all there are 2 arguments against the mp3 idea which are convincing :
1.) the latency produced by the decompression
2.) As you said if you add effects like for example reverb or EQ the quality loss could
be hearable
But in both cases I ask myself if anybody has made experiences which can be described a little more detailed ?
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Andrea, this is great news. I'll continue this line of thought in the Keymap Watch thread.
thierry, there are two limiting factors in EXS. One is the amount of RAM (which is an OSX issue), and the other is the number of sample files. I've forgotten the details and the numbers of the second issue. But practically speaking, RAM limits prohibit most of us from a one computer orchestra long before the sample number limit is reached.
hetoreyn, good point about what happens to lossy formats when processed. Maybe a touch of reverb and a little EQ here and there would still be do-able? Perhaps we'll never know.
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MP3?! Feh!
And foi!
That's like living with ugly plastic sheets over the good furniture that you only take off when guests come over.
Mac Pro 5,1 12-core 3.46 GHz, 64MB RAM, latest macOS available. Metric Halo 2882 interface.
VisionDAW Windows 7 Pro i7 950 3.07 4-core, 24GB RAM. Has an RME Hammerfall HDSP9632, but I just use VE Pro. Also several ancient P4 XP slaves, rarely used.
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Nick Batzdorf wrote:MP3?! Feh!
And foi!
That's like living with ugly plastic sheets over the good furniture that you only take off when guests come over. Believe it or not. This was extactly the reaction I expected first when the idea came up yesterday. mp3 is asociated with I-Tunes, Robin williams downloads ...etc and all but NOT with fine sounding orchestra simulation. I'm aware of that. The day the mp3 came out I thought. Hey cool, now I can email my friends some of my pieces and it was not the birth of a new generation of Audio Processing. I understand that ! '[  ]' But, hey : Don't you believe I'm a purist and a passionated musician aswell ? Come on . . . I'm one of you guys or would I even post stuff in this forum ?! When I was a little guy at the age of 5 years I allready saved my money (not eating choclates n stuff) in order to be able to buy high quality Tapes (Chrome and metal) instead of the IEC Type 1 normal tapes just to enjoy the little nuance of the sounds I recorded '' Its juts I have this nightmare remembering the times when I had my emu sampler and was happy of being able to use 128 MBytes of RAM instead of 32 MByte from the AKAI Sampler I had before. At that time I aforded the Peter Sidlycec Library but could only use like 5 or 6 Intruments of it. Therefore I'm like a burned child with RAM limitations. Otherwise I wouldn't even think of the mp3 codec. And what happened until know ? Well we have such incredible libraries like the vsl which i consoder as a dream which come true. But buying a mac and 4 slave PC's ist not a dream for me. It remembers me of the old days where I needed several sound expanders and 2 sampler . . . But all that is not even the point. The point is (and I'm refering to you GOURMET AUDIO LOVERS ) Are you able to hear any difference. I'm not able. With a good converted mp3 I simply cannot hear acoustically a difference. Its as I said. Just go ahead. Let your wife, your gril friend or your neighbour start up the exactly same audio file (1 converted and one not) and you'll have real difficulties to guess which of the file is the mp3 and which one is the .aif Than the only thing which is problematic is the image of mp3. The "name" mp3 doesn't sound good to a musicians ear but the mp3 itself sounds good (its no fastfood !)
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"MP3 is to the sensual delight of listening with unaduterated aural joy, as an intemperate gastric condition is to an astronaut."
circa 5 minutes ago, Alex....
[i:d09f9c4039][color=blue:d09f9c4039][size=11:d09f9c4039]Orchestration is the art of making your own choice.....
Genius is the art of making the right choice....[/size:d09f9c4039][/color:d09f9c4039][/i:d09f9c4039]
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Ok, you convinced me. I give up [ ] (it was just an idea anyway) Hopefully we will soon have 64 Bit Operating Systems or at least OS X 10.5 with Logic 7.3 managing 16 GBytes of RAM so that we don't have to be afraid or worry about even thinkin on mp3. right guys ?
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Well, there is that buffersize problem and the cpu load problem with mp3. Next I think - and this for me is a valid point for the VSl libs - mp3 would restrict dynamics further - I find the dynamic a bit limited with VSL - maybe it is just difficult to compose. But the pictures of an exhibition demo (I find it interesting that they label it under Mussorgsky - as they might have used the orchestrated version, hmmm....) from the dynamics it is a bit timid I think, and in Gnomus a bit coarse.
I think a interesting option would be apple lossless - but I think they are using something like that with the VI.
I am curious when this gets inplemented into Logic (and not just Garageband technology)? Anybody know how cpu intensive that is.
best
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"Hopefully we will soon have 64 Bit Operating Systems... so that we don't have to be afraid or worry about even thinkin on mp3. right guys ?
The "hopefully" is right. I don't know about the "soon." It's been "soon" for a while now.
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Jepp! 16 Gigs would be great... allthough I already would be more than happy if Logic could use 8! I would run to the computer store instantly...
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Seems that Logic Pro 7.2.1 is now capable to integrate .mp3 into one's arrange ...
Nevertheless I asume, it won't be used for professional environments as the VSL was designed for.
One thing is for sure: 64-bit operation will have to wait for some years ...
Just my 2 cents ...
Hans-Peter
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I tend to agree that systems could take better advantage of the available hardware-- and if the CPU's and busses were indeed up to speeds promised years ago, there'd be no need to brainstorm on how to get more out of our systems. One would think that Logic, now an Apple product-- would have at least been updated to take better advantage of Apple's increasing RAM configurations and to *up* that 4GB brick wall. (Workarounds. Workarounds. I know, I know...)
The entire discussion just reminds me that we have a long way to go, technologically speaking. The Intel-Macs do look promising, based upon PB specs, but I still long for a separate sample player/editor box that can be used with simple midi and audio cables. I'd love it if I could load up my Akai or Roland players with 16 GB or more of RAM to play VSL samples, if it were possible to do so.
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