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Vienna Instruments: To Mac or not to Mac?
Last post Thu, Apr 06 2006 by DG, 55 replies.
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Posted on Mon, Apr 03 2006 18:35
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
hermitage59 wrote:

What do you think Daryl?

Pc or Mac?

Where's the mileage in the next 4 years? (No pressure, you understand)

Regards,

Alex.

p.s. How's the shed coming on?

Smile

Laptop is the key here. At the moment (leaving Logic out of the equation) it has to be PC.

Long term I see no plan from Apple that can compete with Vista, and while I would agree that there will be problems in the initial stages, Apple has more than enough on it's plate to cope with the Intel releases that I don't see it being a rival for at least a couple of years.

However, by that time who knows. Apple may have lost it's monopoly (I already know two people who have built their own Macs) and become a software only company, because if the hardware was officially an open platform, then I can't see many Macs being sold. However, in this case there might be many more people running OSX (or whatever animal it is by then) so "Mac users" might be a much higher percentage of the computer using population.

For someone starting out today with nothing, there really is a difficult choice ahead. PC, outdated in 1 year (but cheap), old Mac (had a farm?) outdated already, but at least it works, and MacIntel, which is all but useless at the moment, as hardly anything runs properly on it (in our field).

DG

PS. Windows (nothing to do with Bill Gates) are going in on Wednesday and then the rest starts next week.
Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Mon, Apr 03 2006 18:37
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
R.K. wrote:
Mac is built by one company therefore its software will work no questions asked.

You'd think so, but even judging by this forum it is obviously not this simple.

DG
Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Mon, Apr 03 2006 18:42
by hermitage59
Joined on Fri, Mar 25 2005, The Slavic Cultural Empire, Posts 1050
R.K. wrote:
Quote:
Logic continues to be poor in the Score department. Sibelius is good for scoring, but lousy on playback. (IMHO) Cubase used to be deficient in the scoring department too, but i understand it has improved at a faster rate than Logic.


Mr. Alex
How could logic be poor in the score depatment ? Its the only score program one can use with ease of use. Not to mention the rest of the monster features. Its the best program for score, it was originaly a score program. Logic users like to moan and groan & complain to apple to keep them abreast on the score feature upgrade issue.
If logic fixed its font (sonata, ect..) feature to use again. And implemented scanning.
There would not be a reason for one to use any other program.

The issue is using mac as opposed to pc. Pc is a world wide standard that is put together by many companies. There-fore its feasable to use for any manufacturers for business & marketing. Thats were the money is. And its price is very low. Getting it to use for multiple software is the issue. Mac is built by one company therefore its software will work no questions asked. Because they only have to test it out on one computer put together by one company. Of-course you already know that. but if you at any time feel that you have gotten some bad information and or misconceptions and need to escape from the land of slavic, (I think it stands for the land of slaves) . Don't hesitate to Bluetooth yourself west via, Modem and scotty, captain kurk and the uss enterprise. Any of us will be glad to help. Also The prices on the hoof is low this time of the year.


RK dear fellow!

I'm shocked at this! Logic, good in the score department? When you can't even play in the notes, unless you're in the arrange window? Where correcting the odd mistake calls for restructuring a bar, semiquaver by semiquaver?
Yes, i think the lure of all by Mac for Mac has been an attraction for many, as the one company marketing has worked pretty well. But i'm not so sure anymore. I think the cute pink and white gucci look is getting a little tired, and people are actually focussing on the performance instead of the hype. In a way, BG and Windows don't have that much to lose, as the general public have been resigned to probs with windows for long enough to be used to upgrading etc.

The MOST reliable setup i ever had, was a cutdown version of Win98 (Thanks to a neat little program called Win98 Lite Pro that removed Explorer and a lot of other stuff) running Cubase 3.5 or so. That cooked, didn't play up, took everything i threw at it, never howled when i plugged the mic or keyboard in, etc.
It wouldn't handle today's giant sample libraries, but in that snapshot in time (about 5 years) it worked a treat, and did the job.

Slavic stands for warrior, and there's enough on the hoof here that dresses most elegantly, with class, to keep my attention for some time!
And from what i've read about Nuendo, and the development going on, things may tip the other way soon. I hope so. I've spent a lot of money over the years on '80% useable software.' I'd like to use something that just goes, without a hassle, and plays stuff back the way i want it, without having to compromise all the time.

Regards,

Alex.


Smile
[i:d09f9c4039][color=blue:d09f9c4039][size=11:d09f9c4039]Orchestration is the art of making your own choice.....
Genius is the art of making the right choice....[/size:d09f9c4039][/color:d09f9c4039][/i:d09f9c4039]
Posted on Mon, Apr 03 2006 19:20
by Dar32
Joined on Fri, May 20 2005, USA, Posts 373
I wish someone would dig up a genious or two to help us make the right decision.
Posted on Mon, Apr 03 2006 19:30
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
R.K. wrote:
I wish someone would dig up a genious or two to help us make the right decision.

Unfortunately there is no right decision, except in the eyes of the beholder Confused

DG
Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Mon, Apr 03 2006 19:32
by JWL
Joined on Sun, Jul 20 2003, Posts 1274
Mac guy here again--

I do agree that Apple has fed its improvements in conspicuously small increments. Besides the "cute factor" and improved RAM and bus speeds, the benefits tend to taper off. However, respective new teething periods for both Mac and PC's will be in progress for a while and in earnest.

The cost factor with PC's has been very tempting for me-- plus the plethora of software choices places the best that PC's have to offer a bit ahead of Apple in comparable areas. Options for surround mixing are a prime example. (Remember-- this is a Mac guy saying this.)

But in general, the grass is not *that much* greener when all is said and done. Issues abound on both sides of the farm yard fence-- as do benefits. At present, there is less reason for PC and Mac users in general to switch platforms, although electronic musicians have clear reasons to consider all of the available options for production tools, including having at least one computer of each platform.

As for notation-- no DAW cuts it in this area, and having used them all I got on the Finale bandwagon quite early on. I would never place anything printed out from a DAW in front of professional musicians. Maybe that's just me.


But back to VSL and LAPTOPS-- we ask a lot of our systems and are always asking more of them than they are prepared to handle. Whether PC or Mac, the main issue here is not to expect to get dozens of instances running smoothly. Depending upon the amount of samples loaded at once, I'd say that 10-12 instances are reasonable. In truth, regardless of platform, VI is a serious tool for serious production requiring serious horsepower. For my laptop while traveling, I'm using Miroslav Philharmonik's 7 GB library and am treading carefully (albeit on a G4 1.5Ghz 17" PB). It's not a question of which library I like better-- it's a question of being realistic with hardware and software compatibility.

It should also be noted that Paul's stress tests were just that-- 'stress' tests. I don't view them as average setups, and therefore pragmatic thinking calls for a measure of modesty in real world implementation. For example: will I be able to load 24 instances on my G5 2.5 dual tower? Probably, but I don't dare hit the space bar!!

Dunno. I'd say if you're on PC, stay with PC. If you're on a Mac, stay with Mac. The pros and cons on each abound.
Posted on Mon, Apr 03 2006 19:39
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
JWL wrote:

Dunno. I'd say if you're on PC, stay with PC. If you're on a Mac, stay with Mac. The pros and cons on each abound.

I agree. The snag comes if you are a PC Logic user; you're scr*wed if you do and scr*wed if you don't.

DG
Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Mon, Apr 03 2006 20:26
by Dar32
Joined on Fri, May 20 2005, USA, Posts 373
hermitage59 wrote:



RK dear fellow!

I'm shocked at this! Logic, good in the score department? When you can't even play in the notes, unless you're in the arrange window? Where correcting the odd mistake calls for restructuring a bar, semiquaver by semiquaver?

Regards,

Alex.


Smile



They've upgraded Alex. Its Ok now to play in score window.
Correcting the odd mistakes is twice as fast as any other notation program.
But you forgot to mention, when recording you can't see the midi notes, Unless you use a capture last take keyboard command.

But with all honesty, It very well could all be upgraded in a moment to 64 bit processing and both platforms will be just sufficient and or compatible enough.



Quote:

As for notation-- no DAW cuts it in this area, and having used them all I got on the Finale bandwagon quite early on. I would never place anything printed out from a DAW in front of professional musicians. Maybe that's just me.


Yes Its just you. JWL You're a perfectionist and plenty of energy to boot, obviously.
Must be nice. thanks for the info by the way. Its is very helpfull.

I'm getting ready to publish 2 books with logic's score. Have I used the notation programs, they would have control over final say so & any lengthy piece. I don't like that. The ease of factor is essencial. But I can see your point JWL, you want to please your clients.
I usually have to kiss everyone's ass to eventually let them know the real world.
Exsuse the foul language, its just an expression of use. Do people know how much time and money is spent here. As Alex stated it correctly. Clients that are new, have no Idea. there is the story of the director who wanted a clarinet part in his score so he told the composer that he wanted that thing that is played by soft ect... He had no idea what a clarinet is. on and on ..there's stories that make one laugh. I'm afraid I have also contributed to the laughter factor also. So and so......


Hey Alex : my logic score page brings me a beer, when I press control/ shift/Command.
Posted on Mon, Apr 03 2006 20:50
by elksman
Joined on Sat, Mar 18 2006, Posts 58
Thanks again everyone for the advice.

While all this brain power is flying around, I thought I might plug my question from another thread:

I had 3 instances of VI running, crashed the ASIO, and since, no VST VI anymore, even though its in the folder. Logic just doesn't 'see' it. ??

My system is almost famous by now, but just FYI: 2.4Ghz PC, Logic 5.5, 1GB... BTW, I just bought 2GB of ram for my laptop (designed to take 1, Crucial Memory says, hey, why not try it?).

Right now, I'm leaning towards Cubase - if I get frustrated, I'm just going to plunk down 1g and get a mini-tower with a 2.8GHZ pentium-D and 2GB ram.

Anyone got comments on how good the scoring is in Cubase? We've heard a lot about Logic...

Best regards,

Eric
Posted on Mon, Apr 03 2006 20:56
by dfhage
Joined on Thu, Nov 07 2002, London, UK, Posts 94
Quote:
RK dear fellow!

I'm shocked at this! Logic, good in the score department? When you can't even play in the notes, unless you're in the arrange window? Where correcting the odd mistake calls for restructuring a bar, semiquaver by semiquaver?


If anyone is interested, it is perfectly possible to get Logic to emulate note input a la Finale or Sibelius, with a combination of the onscreen Keyboard, the score window and some keyboard shortcuts.

Regards

David Hage
Posted on Mon, Apr 03 2006 21:01
by Dar32
Joined on Fri, May 20 2005, USA, Posts 373
Thats the 64 dollar question ?

It must be OK, if beat uses it. You hear his demos.
Posted on Mon, Apr 03 2006 21:10
by Dar32
Joined on Fri, May 20 2005, USA, Posts 373
Quote:
Anyone got comments on how good the scoring is in Cubase? We've heard a lot about Logic...




Thats the 64 dollar question.

Beat Kaufman uses it So it must be OK

sorry got bumped in between.
Posted on Mon, Apr 03 2006 21:19
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
elksman wrote:
Anyone got comments on how good the scoring is in Cubase? We've heard a lot about Logic...

Best regards,

Eric

No better or worse; just as cr*p........... Big Smile

DG
Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Mon, Apr 03 2006 21:34
by hermitage59
Joined on Fri, Mar 25 2005, The Slavic Cultural Empire, Posts 1050
I'm still leaning back to a PC farm, sample libraries, and Cubase, when i return to Europe and invest in a bigger setup (yet another one!). At least there i can manipulate the score a little easier, and if i'm going to spend a lot of money buying new samples, i'm fairly convinced the difference in performance between MAC vs PC is not worth the hype or difference in price.
Shame really, because EXS, pound for pound, is the bright spot in the Emagic/Inteligapple/VI scenario. A simple sample player/editor that handles resource well.

It is a bit ironic that we're discussing a basic task, inputting, we're almost agreed on the general pittance that is available for those who prefer the notes in front of them, with equipment running into the thousands of dollars, programs just as comparatively expensive, with multi level complexity that are trained to market themselves as sit up and do as told, and valuable time spent doing all this with stuff that simply doesn't cut it.

I find that wistfully amusing......Confused

Alex.
[i:d09f9c4039][color=blue:d09f9c4039][size=11:d09f9c4039]Orchestration is the art of making your own choice.....
Genius is the art of making the right choice....[/size:d09f9c4039][/color:d09f9c4039][/i:d09f9c4039]
Posted on Mon, Apr 03 2006 21:44
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
hermitage59 wrote:
I'm still leaning back to a PC farm, sample libraries, and Cubase, when i return to Europe and invest in a bigger setup (yet another one!). At least there i can manipulate the score a little easier, and if i'm going to spend a lot of money buying new samples, i'm fairly convinced the difference in performance between MAC vs PC is not worth the hype or difference in price.
Shame really, because EXS, pound for pound, is the bright spot in the Emagic/Inteligapple/VI scenario. A simple sample player/editor that handles resource well.

Alex.

I think that if you intend to make a go of the whole Vienna VI thing then it won't really matter what you get, as (assuming that the current Mac problems disappear) both Mac and PC will work well.

I'm in a holding pattern until Vista, so my "farm" is likely to be increased by another PC in the near future. However, as it is all running via FX-Teleport I have no soundcards or MIDI interfaces/cables to worry about, and it should cost round about £400. Not bad for a machine that will handle 2.8Gb of samples Cool

DG
Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Mon, Apr 03 2006 21:44
by JWL
Joined on Sun, Jul 20 2003, Posts 1274
R.K. wrote:
Yes Its just you. JWL You're a perfectionist and plenty of energy to boot, obviously.
Must be nice. thanks for the info by the way. Its is very helpfull.



I'll take these as positives... I think...

Don't know how helpful I've been if you think I'm swimming alone in this regard, but good luck on your book.
Posted on Mon, Apr 03 2006 21:51
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
JWL wrote:
R.K. wrote:
Yes Its just you. JWL You're a perfectionist and plenty of energy to boot, obviously.
Must be nice. thanks for the info by the way. Its is very helpfull.



I'll take these as positives... I think...

Don't know how helpful I've been if you think I'm swimming alone in this regard, but good luck on your book.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, "Sequencer notation is CR*P!!!"

DG
Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Mon, Apr 03 2006 21:56
by hermitage59
Joined on Fri, Mar 25 2005, The Slavic Cultural Empire, Posts 1050
DG wrote:
hermitage59 wrote:
I'm still leaning back to a PC farm, sample libraries, and Cubase, when i return to Europe and invest in a bigger setup (yet another one!). At least there i can manipulate the score a little easier, and if i'm going to spend a lot of money buying new samples, i'm fairly convinced the difference in performance between MAC vs PC is not worth the hype or difference in price.
Shame really, because EXS, pound for pound, is the bright spot in the Emagic/Inteligapple/VI scenario. A simple sample player/editor that handles resource well.

Alex.

I think that if you intend to make a go of the whole Vienna VI thing then it won't really matter what you get, as (assuming that the current Mac problems disappear) both Mac and PC will work well.

I'm in a holding pattern until Vista, so my "farm" is likely to be increased by another PC in the near future. However, as it is all running via FX-Teleport I have no soundcards or MIDI interfaces/cables to worry about, and it should cost round about £400. Not bad for a machine that will handle 2.8Gb of samples Cool

DG


And it's partly your success with FX teleport and the favourable comments you made about it that has got me thinking, Daryl.
Your end result is scarcely different in terms of output and RAM usage to a setup with more expensive kit (Mac), and as i've used Cubase, Logic, and Sibelius fairly regularly, the learning curve isn't as big an issue. I agree with the holding on for Vista, something i'd do anyway while i'm still here, and of course there's the potential of MIR.
I have an OT question at this point. Are you using Cubase in conjunction with Nuendo and Gigastudio, or do you have something else?


Alex.
[i:d09f9c4039][color=blue:d09f9c4039][size=11:d09f9c4039]Orchestration is the art of making your own choice.....
Genius is the art of making the right choice....[/size:d09f9c4039][/color:d09f9c4039][/i:d09f9c4039]
Posted on Mon, Apr 03 2006 22:29
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
hermitage59 wrote:
I have an OT question at this point. Are you using Cubase in conjunction with Nuendo and Gigastudio, or do you have something else?
Alex.

I use Nuendo, GS3 and K2 (pause for spitting). I will probably be retiring GS for the VST version at some point, as it doesn't really like to play with Vienna VI on the same PC. I don't use Cubase or ProTools any more, as Nuendo covers all of that ground and more.

DG
Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Mon, Apr 03 2006 22:56
by hermitage59
Joined on Fri, Mar 25 2005, The Slavic Cultural Empire, Posts 1050
DG wrote:
hermitage59 wrote:
I have an OT question at this point. Are you using Cubase in conjunction with Nuendo and Gigastudio, or do you have something else?
Alex.

I use Nuendo, GS3 and K2 (pause for spitting). I will probably be retiring GS for the VST version at some point, as it doesn't really like to play with Vienna VI on the same PC. I don't use Cubase or ProTools any more, as Nuendo covers all of that ground and more.

DG

Daryl,
I didn't know Nuendo covered all the Cubase workings as well. Anyway, I've just downloaded the manual and presentation PDF, so i'll have a browse.

Thanks for the info,

Alex.
[i:d09f9c4039][color=blue:d09f9c4039][size=11:d09f9c4039]Orchestration is the art of making your own choice.....
Genius is the art of making the right choice....[/size:d09f9c4039][/color:d09f9c4039][/i:d09f9c4039]
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