88 note weighted keyboards and the MIDI spec!

[mpower88]

I know this has been discussed before but I'm bringing it up again.

I have a Kurzweil K2600X (88 note weighted), and I just find that the action is very limited and not at all what I would *really like*. Hands up anyone else who feels the same about their keyboard.

All i want is a dedicated USB (NO midi needed)88 note weighted midi controller with pitch, mod, maybe a few sliders and a couple of buttons (play stop and record for example), where the primary focus is on EXCELLENT and highly ACCURATE action. Also, for VSL a breath controller would be cool, and a three pedal piano style pedal controller for piano.

I use Ivory Piano, which is a great piano synth/library. I emailed their tech support asking for advice. They said they USED the K2600 in creating Ivory just because it was so accurately linear. Mine isn't. They said get it calibrated, service people said it's fine. I haven't used the internal sounds, synthesizer or sample option or *anything* else on it for years now.

The action I'm looking for is the feel and touch of a steinway grand - enough response and resistance to feel like a grand but not overly heavy, and not as light as an upright of course. Doesn't any body make something like this now? With Ivory you have a real alternative to owning a grand piano (if you can't afford one).

Next quarm: MIDI spec. How useless is 127 points of velocity?! here we are discussing 24bit vs 16bit and the thousands and thousands of velocity points there, and we are playing in with just 127!! Is it just me? Am I ignorant or is that just really redundant!!? I realise of course that audio is different to midi but to my mind the MIDI velocity should be *at least* 12 bit/16bit at minimum and that includes mod and pitch wheel.

So who else would like a midi controller as I've described with those basic features that *ignores* midi spec and just prints it's own spec through USB at 16bit resolution? They would have to re-write logic for us of course but hey that's not a big deal!

Miklos.

[mpower88]

All right since all yall don't have the cahones to get in on this very important post I'll reply to myself. [:)]

VSL should pioneer something. Ok that's what I'm getting at here. VSL should work with a hardware company and make a VSL keyboard controller with a slightly variable strength weighted keys, stronger on the lower octaves, through to lighter on the top for piano touch, with a USB non-midi system running at 12 or 14 bit resolution. And they could do something like emulate the steinway mechanism without infringing patents, try to get the feel the same (that's my preference) make their own patent for a resistance weighted keyboard that feels like a hammer. *Can't be that hard to do when all your R&D goes into THAT instead of crummy on board sounds*
That's right NO onboard sounds. Just a mod wheel, 8 faders for volume control pitch wheel and a three pedal sust/sost/soft pedal nice and big foot print heavy one that doesn't move around and looks like piano pedals. Perhaps a volume pedal there too and a breath controller is something a lot of people using VSL are too chicken to use. Alright I don't have one but I'd like to get one a great way to add expression. (Sure you feel like a one man band but doesn't the music come first!?) One button for power, and a simple two digit channel display button USB powered, no power cord. The response should be extremely accurately linear with velocity maps done via software in VI or Logic if Apple makes a track compatible with the 14bit "new" MIDI standard.
The 8 faders could be used in the future to control MIR stereo mix levels. Perhaps even put that extra money into 16 faders each one controlling a stereo instrument with a button to flick it over to the 8 bus MIR. This should be able to retail for under $1500USD be extremely high quality made with a 2 year warrantee, 5 years extended warrantee for extra $400 or so. A nice VSL logo on it. Make it Black. Make it the best design and build as possible just like anything else VSL. I think there should not be bickering about mechanism and feel it should be modelled on steinway, that's the standard, not too heavy or light, with the right resistance. I don't want to feel kawai or borsendorfer for my computer system, steinway has perfected a universally excellent mechanism it should be modelled on that, with the provision that you can manually adjust the resistance and weight slightly to preference.

Miklos.

[hetoreyn]

Hehe .. well I didn't answer your post cos I didn't think I really had an answer to your question.

I use a Roland RD-150 (there's a pic of it on my site under the VSL & Tech - Studio section .. also with a link to the roland site). It's a full weight keyboard and I rather like the feel of it, although when I'm doing very fast repetition type stuff it can be awkward .. but usually that's due to me using my other keyboard for too long .. which is very light weighted (A Roland XP-30).

I don't have a pitch and mod wheel on the Master keyboard which I sometimes wish I had, but I do have one on the XP keyboard.

I think it'd be great if in the future, VSL could realise a piano/keyboard version of their instrument banks. So you could have say a master keyboard which uses the VI software, and contains the basic patches .. and then have attachable modules .. (Something like a Triton Rack), that would contain the various libraries. So if you wanted the full library .. you'd have to get all the modules.

And then MIR could be brought along as an outboard unit, that is controlled by an interface on the computer .. and of course all these VSL modules would be connected to the computer via Firewire 800 or USB2.

What that would do is make it easier on your hardware .. having everything running in logic frequently maxes out my computer .. and so hardware versions (If properly kitted out with enough RAM and processor gear .. which wouldn't be that hard by todays standards), would help to relieve the pressure.

And just think ... Wouldn't it be AWESOME! to have a keyboard made by VSL .. and be surrounded by sound modules with all the great sounds of the VI library. I love my Triton Rack .. but I'd so love to have a sound module with samples of VSL quality.

Not to say that the Computer samples versions of the VSL aren't good enough .. quite the contrary .. they are great, but I'm just teasing myself about things I would like to have IF! I ever had the money.

Maybe I'll just settle for the Chamber strings (VI version .. I am dying to have a go of this library), and a Macbook, for portable music writing. I wouldn't bother with the Pro version .. too expensive, and frankly from looking at the system spec .. the Macbook would probably run the VSL quite well.

But I will keep on dreaming of an 88 note VSL keyboard, with it's ten library modules, MIR box, and all controlled by my lovely Powermac. Mmmmm ..

(Anyways, off in the next few hours to Canada .. so take care everyone .. talk soon).

[saxophone4]

Have you looked into the M-Audio Keystation Pro 88.

USB - 88 keys, hammer-action...a gazillion buttons, knobs, and sliders that can be programmed to function for any of the control options you'd need with a sample/composition set-up.

And the kicker...its cheap.

I just got rid of my Roland A-90 and purchased one of these and the VSL Pro Edition. I love them both. It's amazing how much more I enjoy some of piano libraries now with this controller...you can really tailor the velocity curve to your own playing and end up with a great set-up.

Here's a link to some info:

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/KeystationPro88-main.html

Hope this is useful.

[clarkcontrol]

I purchased the Pro-88 right when it came out. It is O.K. (especially for the price) but the key response is not to "concert grand" spec.

No keyboards are.

When I look at the transport in Logic (to see velocity response while I play) there is a wide variation of response between EACH NOTE. Reponse is not linear for each key either. Adjusting the curves doesn't help. M-Audio does not give me the option to program a curve, and there are only a half dozen or so curves that I can choose from.

Studiologic boards, Roland, they all exhibit this behavior (the key to key variation, that is-not the adjustable curve thing).

The thing is to find a board that has less of these problems by just taking back the keyboard and trying a new one. I did this ten years ago with 6 different Kurzweil pc-88s until I found a key action that at least had a decent middle three octaves. I ended up REALLY pi**ing this sales guy off, opening box after box.

For the silver lining, I have found that Yamaha boards (P-90, for instance) have the most consistent action-to-velocity response.

My M-Audio is actually decent (got lucky) so gonna go Knock On Wood. Most keyboards have the most variation between the black and white notes. Check it out, yours does it too.

Clark

[mpower88]

"My M-Audio is actually decent (got lucky) so gonna go Knock On Wood. Most keyboards have the most variation between the black and white notes. Check it out, yours does it too. "

My certainly does. I haven't tried out the M-Audio. I know that no keyboard is up to concert grand spec - that was my point. All of that is my point! [:)]

I am now deciding between a M-Audio 88 and a PC2X from Kurzweil - it has really good action, going to try both out today if possible. I heard the Yamaha didn't have a mod wheel is that right? no good for vsl then. The thing I like about the M-Audio - no on board sounds! that means all the money went into the controller aspect and that is all I'm interested in. Except with the PC2X if I go for that it has some really nice keyboard sounds but that's all I'm interested in, I have Ivory piano, so I much prefer to play that than any internal sounds.

Miklos.

[mpower88]

Well everybody it seems I have answered my own question here after much research and dreary red tired eyes I believe I have located that which, at least on paper, er in html, seems to be what I have been describing - or close to it.

www.fatar.com
www.studiologic.com

nb. I'm not affiliated with them of course in case anyone thinks I'm promoting them. Actually I haven't tried these keyboards yet just happy to find something on the internet that looks and seems to be what I am looking for and made to a high quality design. If anyone is interested I suggest you read there quality control page in the fatar site, it seems fatar make the boards and studio logic is a sub company that makes them into controllers? I'm not sure. If I find a music shop with at least one of the 88 note fully weighted models available for testing, I will write back with a report.

Miklos.

[clarkcontrol]

Miklos,

Sorry I didn't mean make you feel like I was telling you something you already knew. My point was merely to say that all keyboards will be a letdown because they all have problems with the action. The only way to find one regardless of brand is to try before you buy. This is a must.

I was going to buy a Studiologic 990 (I think) board (they also use the Fatar action as I understand it) but the action, predictably, was quite irregular from note to note. It was the same price as the Keystation so I tried and liked the latter enough, and the rest is history.

So please all of you looking for keyboards: The quality from unit to unit varies widely (even the same model).

[Nathan Allen Pinard]

I've been thinking of purchasing the new CME 88-key controllers. They have hammer action weight. I was think the Keystation, but all I see is that it's semi-weighted per the description (the 88es anyway)

Anyone have any comments on CME? I was going to try and find JUST an 88 weighted keyboard and buy a CME interface to put elsewhere, however the CME keyboard has both combined as well as specific space for your computer keyboard and mouse.

[Elan Hickler]

CME has aftertouch, M-Audio 88 Keystation does not. CME has volume pedal and breath controller inpute. M-audio DOES NOT!

I'm waiting for my CME to get shipped as I type.

[mosso]

I'm currently using a CME UF8. I've only had it a few months, but so far I'm happy with it.

I went around some keyboard shops to try out various fully weighted 88 note keyboards, but a few things swung it for me with the UF8. One of the main reasons was that my other main choice in my price range, a Studiologic, had an action that was a little bit heavy for my liking. The other thing that gave it the edge over the Studiologic were the sliders/knobs, sequencer control buttons (play/record/ff etc.), and the breath controller input.

Having said that, there are several current "issues" with it however. The USB driver is pretty awful and I get lots of stuck notes (this is a common problem with the Windows driver and an update is on the way apparently), so I'm using the MIDI output. However with this the sequencer control buttons only sends MIDI Beat Clock and my sequencer sync's to this, so tempo has to be adjusted using a knob on the keyboard. Maybe it's just me but I really hate this! There is an app you can put between the MIDI input and your sequencer that will change these signals to CC commands so that sorts it.

Just my 2 cents...

Martin

[Elan Hickler]

eh? don't use the transport controls then, I never inteded to anyway.

USB creates stuck notes? I didn't know that was a USB problem. I seriously doubt it's CMEs fault.

[mosso]

A few people don't worry about the SEQ buttons, but like I said there is a workaround and I find them quite handy.

As for the USB driver being duff - other users on the CME forum have reported similar problems. It's seems to be a sporadic problem and I would imagine most people aren't affected by it, and hopefully you won't be either! They are apparently working on an updated driver. Like I said, I'm very happy with the keyboard, but I won't be using it with the USB connection until an updated driver is released.

Check the forum for more details http://www.cme-pro.com/forum/">http://www.cme-pro.com/forum/

Hope you enjoy the keyboard!

Martin

[mpower88]

Now that is a helpful response - you've tried both and you preferred the latter. Thanks for sharing that. Can you explain more why? I've heard a lot of people saying bad things about the Maudio product and it's interesting you say you preferred it, personally I haven't tried either.

@clarkcontrol said:

Miklos,

Sorry I didn't mean make you feel like I was telling you something you already knew. My point was merely to say that all keyboards will be a letdown because they all have problems with the action. The only way to find one regardless of brand is to try before you buy. This is a must.

I was going to buy a Studiologic 990 (I think) board (they also use the Fatar action as I understand it) but the action, predictably, was quite irregular from note to note. It was the same price as the Keystation so I tried and liked the latter enough, and the rest is history.

So please all of you looking for keyboards: The quality from unit to unit varies widely (even the same model).

[mpower88]

Can't say from personal experience but I've heard that the CME's are junk and not well made and don't last the distance. I've read completely contrasting reviews on it as well, one glowing the other not so.
Miklos.

@Sonrise said:

I've been thinking of purchasing the new CME 88-key controllers. They have hammer action weight. I was think the Keystation, but all I see is that it's semi-weighted per the description (the 88es anyway)

Anyone have any comments on CME? I was going to try and find JUST an 88 weighted keyboard and buy a CME interface to put elsewhere, however the CME keyboard has both combined as well as specific space for your computer keyboard and mouse.

[mpower88]

Thanks for the replies, but the main thing I would be interested in is the best possible action, and my definition of the best possible action would probably be something close to a Steinway top of the line grand, fairly new, tempered, and perhaps just slightly lighter than that. Alternatively, the same touch as a top of the line Yamaha grand, again perhaps slightly lighter.

Has anyone compared the Studiologic SL990 to the Kurzweil K2600X in terms of action?

Miklos.

[Elan Hickler]

I've never seen a bad review about CME. I always see bad reviews about m-audio products, including thier 88-keystation. It's not a bad product, it's just not as good as the price. [:)]

[mpower88]

Fair enough. Thanks.

[DG]

@Argitoth said:

I've never seen a bad review about CME. I always see bad reviews about m-audio products, including thier 88-keystation. It's not a bad product, it's just not as good as the price. [:)]

However, be aware that there seems to be quite a few users who have had to return their CME keyboards due to manufacturing faults.

DG

[svonkampen]

I own the CME,

The build quality is a solid 9.5 ..........
I have the non-weighted UF7, so I can not comment on the UF8 Action.

the prices are amazing and it feels real chunky...

Transport buttons are military-spec and NO midi cables needed.

SvK