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Posted on Sat, Jul 15 2006 01:12
by wolfetho
Joined on Mon, May 29 2006, Southfields, MI, Posts 73
I have the VSL VI Orchestral Strings 1 Standard -without the extended library. I'm trying to fatten up the Violin section by layering VSL w/ another violin section (from another library). I really wish there was a second violin section in VSL. My problem is, let's say I've spent a lot of time getting just the right articulations from the VSL VI using keyswitching.Any suggestions on how best to layer the other strings with VSL
without destrroying (or covering up) the subtle articulations and attacks in VSL. In other words, I want both violin sections playing in unison. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Tom
Posted on Sat, Jul 15 2006 05:51
by mattdean
Joined on Sat, Apr 22 2006, Toronto, Canada, Posts 57
Why not fatten it up with more Vienna strings? You can simply duplicate the track once or twice, transpose the track a tone - NOT a semi tone(without transposing the keyswitches) and use your pitch wheel to bring it back to unison. That way you aren't triggering the same samples. It's worked wonders for me with the Chamber Strings. No reason it won't work for everything.
Then you don't have to worry about the articulations not matching up.
Tip: adjust the tuning so it's about 3, 5 or 8 cents out, and the timing so the tracks are just barely out of alignment. Gives it even more lushness.

Tip courtesy of Jay Bacal Big Smile
Posted on Sat, Jul 15 2006 09:25
by JWL
Joined on Sun, Jul 20 2003, Posts 1274
wolfetho:

The wording of your question is most interesting.

It sounds as if you already have a second string sample collection and want to use it-- or you've tried to use it and are not getting the results you want.

Are either of the above statements true?

I've used VI in combination with other collections, and I've often found it better not to match every articulation so literally, depending upon the needs of the music. I'll play the part in as closely as possible, but a certain lack of "perfection" can add an element of realism. I like minor "discrepancies" and "happy accidents". Real string sections don't always play "together", and those players sitting further away tend to sound late in the real world.

I use VI as my front end strings-- those players sitting closest to the conductor, for example. I'll consider the "other" string samples as those players sitting further back in the section. I'll use Altiverb's predelays to place the two string sections "near" and "far" for more depth.

Most importantly, the pan fields of each similar section must match. If you've narrowed the 1st violins from VI to 30 degrees and panned it to the left, you want to also take the 1st violins from the other strings section, narrow it 30 degrees width to match VI, and then pan it to the same place in the mix as the VI strings. Same for all the sections, otherwise the strings will bounce around the mix and create undesired mix results.

That's what I do fo adding depth and adding a different color, but not soley for adding a second violin section because two sample collections are too different to be convincing spearately.

I like J's suggestion of duplicating and transposing the track, compensating with the mod wheel to trigger different samples. Two problems can occur with this technique:

1. In cases where an open string sound is desired, ie: low G on the violin, such notes can be noticeable when transposed. A change of patch/sample on those notes in the new track can remedy this.

2. Attention must be given to instrument ranges when bottom extremes are reached. Tranposing down can result in missing notes. This can be remedied by always transposing upwards. Higher limits of stringed instruments are more difficult to discern.

But the texture and color of tranposing VI remains consistent under the best circumstances, and under the worst circumstances this technique adds nothing to the texture or color-- if this is what is desired.

Personally, I would actually just play the part in again whether I used VI or another collection for those "happy accidents".

So, consider your specific reasons for wanting a fatter section and then determine which approach would best serve the results you desire.
Posted on Sat, Jul 15 2006 19:30
by wolfetho
Joined on Mon, May 29 2006, Southfields, MI, Posts 73
Hatt and JWL:

Thanks for your comments/tips. They're both very helpful. I must try
transposing up to a different sample and then use the mod wheel to bring it back down. Very interesting- I never thought of that. I have been shifting the midi tracks
to make it sound fuller. With both of these techniques, I think my problem may be solved, at least until I can afford to buy another VSL VI.

JWL- your point about playing the part in, instead of just copying and pasting, makes a lot of sense.Then I won't have to worry so much about covering up the articulations, and I'm sure it will sound more natural.

Thanks,

Tom
Posted on Sun, Jul 16 2006 13:18
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1772
Not a tip but a demo...

In the German Magazin "Sound Recording, No 7/2006" I found two tests:
1. VSL VI-Chamberstrings
2. Garritan's Stradivari
The author combined both libraries for a short demo: Vivaldi's 4 seasons
http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/VSL_Garritan.mp3


No comment from my side...

Have fun
Beat Kaufmann
www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Sun, Jul 16 2006 21:01
by dpcon
Joined on Sat, Oct 12 2002, Los Angeles, Posts 1646
I'll comment: Not very good.
Dave Connor
Posted on Sun, Jul 16 2006 21:41
by JWL
Joined on Sun, Jul 20 2003, Posts 1274
dpcon wrote:
I'll comment: Not very good.


I'll add to that: Garritan-- strident and under equipped for the demands of complex musical expression.

In fact, it's really an unfair comparison. Nothing comes close to VSL's solo strings.... and for that matter, nothing can compare to VSL's expressive detailing across the entire library.

The most important point is that VSL-VI ought to remain the front end sound-- the "near" orchestra. If I use any other collection it is used more as the "far" sound, which *can* add wonderful complexity within the ambience and reverb settings. It's very easy to reproduce the "duck and smear" technique that often occurs at the back of a real string section. I would never expect another collection to carry the essential articulations, especially on a chamber work.
Posted on Sun, Jul 16 2006 22:44
by mathis
Joined on Sat, Feb 07 2004, Munich, Germany, Posts 1137
I'm sorry, but this demo quality has nothing to do with the used libraries. The author obviously is a musical moron.
Posted on Sun, Jul 16 2006 23:18
by cwillsher
Joined on Fri, Mar 04 2005, Southampton, UK, Posts 210
Ouch! That was a 'harsh articulation' Mathis. Big Smile
Posted on Mon, Jul 17 2006 01:00
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1772
mathis wrote:
I'm sorry, but this demo quality has nothing to do with the used libraries. The author obviously is a musical moron.

To save the author's soul...
I believe that most of the authors of magazines don't have the time to get the knowledge they should have to work out the qualities of such complex PlugIns. Further they are not musicians perhaps but "only" technical experts... and by the end of the month they should have finished their work (even if they have or not) because the customers want to buy the magazin.

So the question is: Why on earth don't they use official demos?
Heaven only knows Confused

Beat
www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Mon, Jul 17 2006 03:46
by JWL
Joined on Sun, Jul 20 2003, Posts 1274
Beat Kaufmann wrote:
mathis wrote:
I'm sorry, but this demo quality has nothing to do with the used libraries. The author obviously is a musical moron.

To save the author's soul...
I believe that most of the authors of magazines don't have the time to get the knowledge they should have to work out the qualities of such complex PlugIns. Further they are not musicians perhaps but "only" technical experts... and by the end of the month they should have finished their work (even if they have or not) because the customers want to buy the magazin.

So the question is: Why on earth don't they use official demos?
Heaven only knows Confused

Beat


Heaven? [Indifferent]

But the devil is in the details...
Posted on Mon, Jul 17 2006 04:15
by Nick Batzdorf
Joined on Tue, Apr 29 2003, Los Angeles, Posts 2546
Quote:
I believe that most of the authors of magazines don't have the time to get the knowledge they should have to work out the qualities of such complex PlugIns. Further they are not musicians perhaps but "only" technical experts... and by the end of the month they should have finished their work (even if they have or not) because the customers want to buy the magazin.


Devil

Hopefully this author isn't in that category, but it's true that I haven't had time to do a lot of composing while putting out Virtual Instruments magazine. Smile
Mac Pro 5,1 12-core 3.46 GHz, 64MB RAM, latest macOS available. Metric Halo 2882 interface.

VisionDAW Windows 7 Pro i7 950 3.07 4-core, 24GB RAM. Has an RME Hammerfall HDSP9632, but I just use VE Pro. Also several ancient P4 XP slaves, rarely used.
Posted on Mon, Jul 17 2006 07:42
by JWL
Joined on Sun, Jul 20 2003, Posts 1274
Beat Kaufmann wrote:
No comment from my side...

Have fun
Beat Kaufmann


But, I hear you notwithstanding...

Those who *can* will compose. Those who *can't* will write reviews. Always the case.
Posted on Mon, Jul 17 2006 09:05
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1772
JWL wrote:

But, I hear you notwithstanding...
Those who *can* will compose. Those who *can't* will write reviews. Always the case.

[Wink]
www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Mon, Jul 17 2006 16:47
by Nick Batzdorf
Joined on Tue, Apr 29 2003, Los Angeles, Posts 2546
I think a lot of very capable composers who have written reviews might be surprised to hear that. [Wink]
Mac Pro 5,1 12-core 3.46 GHz, 64MB RAM, latest macOS available. Metric Halo 2882 interface.

VisionDAW Windows 7 Pro i7 950 3.07 4-core, 24GB RAM. Has an RME Hammerfall HDSP9632, but I just use VE Pro. Also several ancient P4 XP slaves, rarely used.
Posted on Mon, Jul 17 2006 17:24
by PaulR
Joined on Mon, Dec 22 2003, England, Posts 2371
mathis wrote:
I'm sorry, but this demo quality has nothing to do with the used libraries. The author obviously is a musical moron.


Hahahahaha!

Big Smile
Posted on Tue, Jul 18 2006 00:53
by JWL
Joined on Sun, Jul 20 2003, Posts 1274
Nick Batzdorf wrote:
I think a lot of very capable composers who have written reviews might be surprised to hear that. [Wink]


...and a lot of reviewers who gave up composing might have no idea what we're talking about!! Stick out tongue
Posted on Tue, Jul 18 2006 03:47
by Benjamin Morsberger
Joined on Mon, May 23 2005, NYC, Posts 65
Robert Schumann was a great composer who wrote a lot of reviews. I'm not aware that he wrote for any technology magazines, however. I think Batzdorf may be unique in this regard.
Posted on Tue, Jul 18 2006 04:57
by dpcon
Joined on Sat, Oct 12 2002, Los Angeles, Posts 1646
Robert Schumann is a great example of composer reviewer. Good call.
Dave Connor
Posted on Tue, Jul 18 2006 06:25
by Nick Batzdorf
Joined on Tue, Apr 29 2003, Los Angeles, Posts 2546
Schumann was also better than I am. If only he hadn't died 100 years before i was born. I'd certainly ask him to write for us.
Mac Pro 5,1 12-core 3.46 GHz, 64MB RAM, latest macOS available. Metric Halo 2882 interface.

VisionDAW Windows 7 Pro i7 950 3.07 4-core, 24GB RAM. Has an RME Hammerfall HDSP9632, but I just use VE Pro. Also several ancient P4 XP slaves, rarely used.
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