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Dynamics and Cresc./Dec. with Organ
Last post Sat, Jan 27 2007 by JJRoach, 8 replies.
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Posted on Wed, Jan 24 2007 08:02
by JJRoach
Joined on Thu, Mar 02 2006, Los Angeles, CA USA, Posts 85
Hi folks...I got my Organ in the mail a few months ago and am FINALLY getting a chance to play with it! It sounds wonderful...but I have a quick question...

I'm trying to figure out how to do volume adjustments with the organ, and I can go with volume/expression, but I'm wondering if maybe there's something I'm missing in there. I am REALLY trying to remember the anatomy of the organ right now and I can't remember what the doors to the chambers are called, but, anyway, I know that most organs are housed inside vaults with adjustable doors to control volume...and I'm wonderign if you recorded and programmed them in here... did you??

Othewise, it's just a matter of using the expression (and maybe, to some extent, the filter) CC controller.

Thoughts? Is my question clear???

Josh
Posted on Wed, Jan 24 2007 15:10
by Guy Bacos
Joined on Sun, Jan 16 2005, Quebec, Canada, Posts 1986
Hi,

I'm not quite sure if I understand you correctly, are you talking about volume changes while playing or as an initial set up?
Posted on Wed, Jan 24 2007 15:18
by Guy Bacos
Joined on Sun, Jan 16 2005, Quebec, Canada, Posts 1986
Ok, I just read your title for the thread? cresc and dynamic... You seldom use swell effects on the organ (well I do, but I'm a bad organist...) what you should really do is vary the stops for different passages and this organ offers a lot of stops. For the Toccata and fugue I did, I had some initial vol settings for each track but never used the swell ped while playing (occasionally a change of volume BUT NOT DURING THE PASSAGE). It's a completely different approach from most instruments.

Advice from a mediocre organist...
Posted on Wed, Jan 24 2007 23:11
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7451
Hello Josh,

the organ-swell is indeed meant to be achieved on behalf of a simple MIDI-CC like Expression. - You may want to experiment to combine this with just a little bit of filtering, too, but it isn't really necessary, that's why we left it out for the default settings, to keep the sound as pure as possible.

HTH,
/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Thu, Jan 25 2007 18:32
by Martin Bayless
Joined on Sat, Oct 25 2003, New York, USA, Posts 266
fwiw, i think the decision to sample the sounds as pure as possible with the swell box fully open was an excellent decision as the vi would have been too unwieldy otherwise. in compensation though, i think it would be a mistake to underestimate the value of filtering when considering how volume effects are created on the organ. for those unfamiliar, the organ is constructed in divisions of pipework associated with each of its manuals (keyboards). these divisions are either "exposed" as in the pipes we can see in the room, or "enclosed" in chambers (small rooms) that can be gradually closed off by louvers that look like vertical blinds called shutters. the shutters gradually open or close via a volume pedal at the organ console.

because a reduction in volume occurs as a result of obscuring the sound by placing it in literally in another room, it becomes important to simulate that effect with a low pass filter rolling off higher frequencies. at no point on the organ is it possible to have the pure unobscured sound of the enclosed divisions, but with the shutters closed, any more than it is possible to have the brassy effect of a horn sound at pianissimo.

to the extent that it would not have been desirable to sample the organ with multiple layers for the enclosed divisions, i think it becomes even more important to note that the primary association we have with an organ's swell effect is its reduction of high frequencies as the shutters restrict the sound, and only secondly the actual change in volume. further, it seems important to note that considerable sound still escapes from a fully enclosed chamber (volume can't ever be reduced below perhaps fifteen or twenty percent) and composers routinely call for this restricted sound (not just as an effect) in the repertoire.
Posted on Fri, Jan 26 2007 07:07
by JJRoach
Joined on Thu, Mar 02 2006, Los Angeles, CA USA, Posts 85
Martin,

Thank you for your thoughts...this is EXACTLY what I was talking about.

Thank you, folks, for your thoughts as well. The responses you posted were what I had guessed they'd be...I'll do more experimentation with linked expression and filter to see if I get a sound closed shutters (thank you Martin for reminding me of the word I was desperately looking for in my last post) that I like...

perhaps something to consider in the future if VSL deems it worthy of the effort...recording different shutter positions and fixing them to the expression CC. I haven't found a difference between adjusting volume and expression for this organ library, so I don't think you'd be really losing any control from dedicating the expression to the shutter layers.

while I think that most of us will not find any problems with using the organ with its stops open, I think that there really is something to be said for the organ's ability to play (with shutters closed) extremely effective veiled passages. I'll tell you, I've found very few things more pure and heavenly than some of the soft organ passages I've heard organists play. Simply stunning.

Josh
Posted on Fri, Jan 26 2007 17:46
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7451
JJRoach wrote:
[...]
Thank you, folks, for your thoughts as well. The responses you posted were what I had guessed they'd be...
[...]
perhaps something to consider in the future if VSL deems it worthy of the effort...recording different shutter positions and fixing them to the expression CC. [...]
Josh


You're welcome, Josh.

I know - never say "never", but in case of organ-samples recorded with different sweller-positions I have the feeling that it won't happen in the near future ... Indifferent ... at least, this is a sound-colour which is easy to achieve from the existing material, with the tools we have now.
/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Sat, Jan 27 2007 08:03
by JJRoach
Joined on Thu, Mar 02 2006, Los Angeles, CA USA, Posts 85
Dietz:
"I know - never say "never", but in case of organ-samples recorded with different sweller-positions I have the feeling that it won't happen in the near future ... ... at least, this is a sound-colour which is easy to achieve from the existing material, with the tools we have now."

Thanks Dietz, I had also figured as much here. There are plenty of other more important and far reaching improvements I'm sure you folks are planning/working on over there in Vienna!

Josh
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