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Please listen to these audio clips and give ur advice.
Last post Thu, Feb 15 2007 by Alex O, 14 replies.
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Posted on Sat, Feb 10 2007 18:53
by mazeka
Joined on Thu, Feb 08 2007, USA, Posts 241
Hi...
I would like to know if its possible to creat the same sound as the attached audio clips.
They are live Turkish Strings .
Which library do I need to achieve the same result.
Thank you.

http://vsl.co.at/upload/users/24385/EMRE_4040_L.wav
http://vsl.co.at/upload/users/24385/EMRE_4072_L.wav
http://vsl.co.at/upload/users/24385/EMRE_4073_L.wav
Posted on Sat, Feb 10 2007 21:27
by JWL
Joined on Sun, Jul 20 2003, Posts 1274
To say *same sound* is a bit dangerous-- *similar* might be a better term when speaking of samples where "sameness" is no different than "identical". You won't get the identical sound heard in your audio examples, but you *can* get a similar sound-- and you *can indeed* nail the articulation effects.

Orch Strings I/II and Appassioinata would be the choices, and a combo of both would be quite effective.

The character of the sound you want is probably closer to Appassionata, but keep in mind that Appassionata is not quite the standalone collection that Orchestra Strings I/II are-- Appassionata is more of an add-on set to extend the dynamic range and expressive palatte of Orch Strings I/II whereas something like Chamber Strings is an entirely different texture from either.

You may want to check out the demos for Appassionata Strings:
http://vsl.co.at/en-us/211/412/272.vsl

You should listent to the audio completely through since it shows a range of expressive possibilities, not all of which are *similar* to those in your audio examples.

I'm not sure how satisfied you would be with just the other available strings in the other formats. The VI Cube Orch Strings I/II are very close in character to the other collections (Horizon, Opus) but there are more articulations. None of these have quite what Appassionata offers.
Posted on Sun, Feb 11 2007 03:09
by mazeka
Joined on Thu, Feb 08 2007, USA, Posts 241
Yes the articulation indeed what I am looking for. So you thing I need all Three stings libraries to achieve most of these articulation....
Ok one more thing.....
I will be using Cubase4 ....
Does the VSL VSTi support micro tuning... For examlpe can I detune A to be 1/4 tone with out doing any edeting to the sample...
Or does VSL repond to the microtuning MIDI plugin in Cubase.
I know U might not have Cubase so I understand if you cannot answer that part but maybe some one else.
The use of micro tuning is used for Oriental music.
Thank U.
Posted on Sun, Feb 11 2007 04:19
by JWL
Joined on Sun, Jul 20 2003, Posts 1274
mazeka wrote:
Yes the articulation indeed what I am looking for. So you thing I need all Three stings libraries to achieve most of these articulation....


No, not really. Appassionata or Orch Strings I/II should accomplish a great deal. Certainly the two in combination gives you a greater choice and greater sonic variety. In the general sense, Appassionata is perhaps a more "aggressive" library, but you will also want to get the most out of your investment if a choice must be made between one or the other. If you buy Appassionata it is likely you will want Orch I/II sooner or later. Conversely, so many VSL users have longed for this "appassionata" set since 2003 and are now pleased to see it is now released.

The thing to keep in mind is that your audio examples focus on one general style of string playing. Within that style, there may be a diversity of articulations, but it's largely aggressive 'forte' playing.

If Appassionata is ideal for this sort of thing, it may not be quite *as* ideal for other types of string playing. If you had to choose between one or the other, I would say start with Orch I/II. At the very least, Orch I/II offer muted strings among other things which are probably not found in the Appassionata collection.

mazeka wrote:

Ok one more thing.....
I will be using Cubase4 ....
Does the VSL VSTi support micro tuning... For examlpe can I detune A to be 1/4 tone with out doing any edeting to the sample...
Or does VSL repond to the microtuning MIDI plugin in Cubase.
I know U might not have Cubase so I understand if you cannot answer that part but maybe some one else.
The use of micro tuning is used for Oriental music.
Thank U.


There is some degree of pitch control, but keep in mind that this collection was basically for a Western orchestra rather than an Eastern orchestra. That doesn't mean that the user cannot get creative. What it sounds as though you want to do is entirely possible. It would be best to have one of the libraries installed and then to discuss techniques with other users.

Here's something else which may interest you-- from one of the articles on Appassionata:

“out-of-tune-samples” where various players of the ensemble carefully correct their intonation as the tone progresses. Mirroring what actually happens in live orchestral performances, this is a very effective technique for creating heightened realism and expression.

This may not be exactly what you were talking about, but some combination of this with clever pitch control in your DAW might be very effective for you.

Since you are a Cubase user, you may want to contact Beat Kaufmann who is a dedicated VSL user, a member here-- and a Cubase officionado. You may also be interested in seeing his website which covers many techniques which are not found in any of the manuals.

http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/
Posted on Mon, Feb 12 2007 13:06
by Alex O
Joined on Mon, Jul 18 2005, Belgium, Posts 196
Hi Mazeka,

Although I agree with JWL to a certain extent, I also have my doubts regarding a few points. While I do not mean any disrespect, I feel he's offering you a Steak (of exquisite quality, for sure!) while you are asking for Kebab.
A crude comparison, but you know what I mean.

I feel that if you're looking to recreate the particular sound and feel of these Turkish Strings, then the Vienna Strings might not be the best choice. Don't get me wrong, they are superb, and no other library offers so many different articulations and detail.

But they are mainly for western orchestral music.

Vienna (unfortunately) does not offer ethnic instruments yet, this is also why I see no problem in pointing your direction towards another manufacturer.

The strings that come closest to your examples are the Mideastern Strings from RA. They are incredibly playable and have a fantastic sound.
This particular String section consists out of 4 violins on the left, and 3 cello's on the right, playing one octave down.
Furthermore, the NI Kontactplayer allows for microtuning, and several presets are on-board, such as Arabian in C,F,G, Egyptian in C,D,G and many more, including Western tuning of course. You can also combine them with the Mideastern Fiddle.
If you want to go "Far East" with your strings, this is your tool.

Drawback: RA is a collection of many etnic instruments, so you don't get near as many articulations for your Mideastern Strings than were you to buy Vienna's StringsI, II or Appassionata. To give you an example: the ME-section has only 6 articulations, the ME-Fiddle has 13 expressions, which is not much compared to Vienna.. But they sound absolutely Eastern, while the Vienna Strings simply don't. And with a bit of keyswitching you can get quite far with them already.

So here I agree with JWL: "the same" is probably not possible, but pretty close: yes.

Nevertheless, this advice is only valid if you ONLY want this sound.
For any other more western oriented composition for Strings, Woodwinds, Brass, Percussion...:
Go Vienna-Smile

Good luck!

Alex
Posted on Mon, Feb 12 2007 18:37
by JWL
Joined on Sun, Jul 20 2003, Posts 1274
Hi Alex:

No disrespect taken. My advice was based on the audio examples which were posted in the original post-- which were much more Western than Eastern. I think my reservations were clear about the use of Vienna's sounds for Eastern use, although I stopped short of recommending other products.

But, I tried to be careful when answering the questions about Vienna specifically. It seems that mazeka wants to accomplish a great deal, and no single library will do everything.

I think it is fair and fitting to address the extent of what Vienna offers, since that was the nature of the original question-- and then consider the most ideal sound sets for other uses. This began with Orch I/II in my post above and continued with Appassionata. Sure, these may be like the "steak" you mentioned, but mazeka may even want "fish" instead, if you take my meaning. To continue the analogy, it could be that "surf and turf" may be the best solution-- meaning that two very different sound libraries may be needed.

Buying a sample library for one project is always a tricky notion. It's important to reconcile the investment for one particular sample set with future projects as well as with the appropriateness of that sample set.

For me, what dictates which library is purchased hinges entirely on the musical requirements of the employer. In that sense, it may not be an either/or question-- but a vote for "all of the above".
Posted on Mon, Feb 12 2007 20:25
by Alex O
Joined on Mon, Jul 18 2005, Belgium, Posts 196
Hello JWL,

Truly spoken and very eloquently too.
And most of all, I definitely don't want to end up in a discussion with you regarding this or that library, our main focus being of course: trying to help Mazeka.

But my point remains: from the three examples he posted, I immediately felt the sound of his live Turkish Strings being very similar to the sound of the aforementioned library (enough namedropping-Smile

The possibilities of the Vienna strings remain of course unchallenged, and the AP-strings along with the VI versions of Strings I&II are about to ship my way soon too. (don't tell my girlfriend, ok?)

Seriously, it is indeed a very delicate question. Does he want the sound of a Western Orchestra mimicking oriental music? Then Vienna Strings are perfect.
And he can compose a zillion other works with them and never get exhausted in possibilities.
But if he wants the "real deal", the truly foreign feel, the winds of the desert blowing through your hair upon hitting the first note...then go for the ME-strings, no doubt!

So... depending on your, and/or the needs of your clients, you might indeed end up very soon having to purchase 'em all!

Personally I hope Vienna will focus on Ethnic instruments one day soon,
for the game-and filmindustry ever more demands a "world orchestra" rather than only the traditional western orchestra.
And with their thoroughness and sense of detail and quality, the Vienna Ethnic Collection may very well blast most, if not all other ethnic libraries into oblivion!

Sorry Mazeka, I hope to have been more helpful instead of confusing.
If not, please shoot!

All the best JWL,

Alex
Posted on Tue, Feb 13 2007 23:33
by mazeka
Joined on Thu, Feb 08 2007, USA, Posts 241
Very helpful
What I am looking for is more the articulation duplication rather than the sonic quality.
I will find some more audio clips to explain what I am looking for.
Thank you both very much.
Posted on Wed, Feb 14 2007 05:14
by JWL
Joined on Sun, Jul 20 2003, Posts 1274
Alex O wrote:
Hello JWL,

Truly spoken and very eloquently too.
And most of all, I definitely don't want to end up in a discussion with you regarding this or that library, our main focus being of course: trying to help Mazeka.

But my point remains: from the three examples he posted, I immediately felt the sound of his live Turkish Strings being very similar to the sound of the aforementioned library (enough namedropping-Smile

The possibilities of the Vienna strings remain of course unchallenged, and the AP-strings along with the VI versions of Strings I&II are about to ship my way soon too. (don't tell my girlfriend, ok?)

Seriously, it is indeed a very delicate question. Does he want the sound of a Western Orchestra mimicking oriental music? Then Vienna Strings are perfect.
And he can compose a zillion other works with them and never get exhausted in possibilities.
But if he wants the "real deal", the truly foreign feel, the winds of the desert blowing through your hair upon hitting the first note...then go for the ME-strings, no doubt!

So... depending on your, and/or the needs of your clients, you might indeed end up very soon having to purchase 'em all!

Personally I hope Vienna will focus on Ethnic instruments one day soon,
for the game-and filmindustry ever more demands a "world orchestra" rather than only the traditional western orchestra.
And with their thoroughness and sense of detail and quality, the Vienna Ethnic Collection may very well blast most, if not all other ethnic libraries into oblivion!

Sorry Mazeka, I hope to have been more helpful instead of confusing.
If not, please shoot!

All the best JWL,

Alex


Thank you, Alex. Speaking of eloquent, you take the definition of the word "gentleman" to a new level!!

I think we have both identified two sides of mazeka's dilemma.

To echo your earlier post:

VSL: more than enough articulations, great sound

RA and others: specialized sound, more authentically Eastern, editable


(Suddenly, I'm back to the "all of the above" theory!) Stick out tongue
Posted on Wed, Feb 14 2007 08:18
by alanb
Joined on Sat, Feb 04 2006, Posts 68
Hi all,

This conversation is very interesting to me, too.

I own RA, and the "Middle East String Section" is my favorite instrument in that library.

My major problem with it is that there are very few articulations. I fear that I'll only be able to get so much mileage out of each articulation without all of my pieces using it sounding like they are obviously "cut from the same cloth."

For this reason, I've been very curious about how (if at all) to go about creating a similar sound with the string libraries that I already have (Pro Edition Orchestral Cube and Performance Set).

Just before seeing this thread, I had been wondering whether anybody had used those VSL libraries for this decidedly 'non-traditional' purpose. If not, or if it turns out not to be feasible, I'm glad to hear what you are all saying about the other VSL libraries.

------------------

Mazeka, you can hear a little bit of the RA strings in a piece of mine called Luna's Dance... a short excerpt from it is the first piece on the "Music" page here: http://alanb.org/"="" target="_blank" title="http://alanb.org/">http://alanb.org/">http://alanb.org/. There are a bunch of libraries used in that piece (the Bb/bass clarinets and the 'fast string reps' are all VSL).

I'm still pretty new to the Wonderful and Frightening World of Sample-Based Music, and am now just starting to familiarize myself with the finer details of all of my libraries, so I would be delighted to read any feedback or comments that you may have to share with me.

Composition issues aside, I listen to each of my pieces on three different setups at home (studio monitors, computer speakers and home stereo) and hear three completely different pieces... [shakes head].....

I have no idea what you will hear, but I hope that you like it, whatever it is!! Big Smile
-- alanb
Posted on Wed, Feb 14 2007 10:07
by Alex O
Joined on Mon, Jul 18 2005, Belgium, Posts 196
Hey Alan,

Glad to hear someone sharing my enthusiasm regarding the ME-string section!
And I'm sure there's more people out there-Smile
By the way, I just ran a little test to see how close I could get to that sound using Vienna strings. One of the things that makes them sound the way they do, is that it's actually a small ensemble ( 4 violins + 3 cellos).
So I ruled out the Vienna orchestral strings, and tried the Chamber Strings
instead. And this came rather close.

A simple setup (in my case: Nuendo3 and Giga3 in rewire, but you can do this in any sequencer I guess): load any preset from the Violin Ensemble on midi channel 1, pan about 40 to the left. Then load the corresponding preset from the Cello ensemble on channel 2. Transpose the Celli one octave down (track parameters) and pan about 40 to the right.
Activate both channels so they play simultaneously... et voila!

Now you have 6 violins + 3 celli (doubling one octave lower), which is not that far from the setup applied for the Ra-strings. And of course a LOT of expressions this time!

Try for example the VI-6_perf-leg-f_fast+porta-mod combined with its celli counterpart. Also working very nice are the short notes and dynamics (sffz, dim, cresc) for this purpose.



All the best,

Alex
Posted on Wed, Feb 14 2007 17:52
by mazeka
Joined on Thu, Feb 08 2007, USA, Posts 241
This is my confusing part.
The chamber strings I and II apash... here seems to be several libraries to get. Is there a compleate STRINGS library from VSL that hase them all or are they divided .
Posted on Wed, Feb 14 2007 20:19
by JWL
Joined on Sun, Jul 20 2003, Posts 1274
mazeka wrote:
This is my confusing part.
The chamber strings I and II apash... here seems to be several libraries to get. Is there a compleate STRINGS library from VSL that hase them all or are they divided .


The different VSL string sets are divided so that they can be purchased separately.

There are:

1. Solo Strings
2. Chamber Strings
3. Orchestral Strings I
4. Orchestral Strings II
5. Appassionata Strings

There is no on single volume containting everything..

Hey-- Alex O:

Thought you'd might like to know that I've just ordered RA!! Stick out tongue
Posted on Thu, Feb 15 2007 00:03
by Alex O
Joined on Mon, Jul 18 2005, Belgium, Posts 196
JWL wrote:


Hey-- Alex O:

Thought you'd might like to know that I've just ordered RA!! Stick out tongue


Hey JWL: Congratulations, I'm sure you won't regret!
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