Hello littlewierdo
The music is beautiful and played and interpreted thousands of times. You have - perhaps without noticing it - chosen one of the most difficult tasks a sample musician can face: With "Nearer, My God to Thee" you have chosen a very slow piece, which is still very well known to everybody.

At first your version sounds like played with a real violin. The beautiful sound of the VSL samples and of course the beautiful melody will help you.
But soon you realize that the violin is a sample violin after all. Why?
If you would give this piece to a real violin player to play, he would shape the long held notes a bit. He would probably breathe at the end of each "melody bow" and would not simply continue to play without a pause. Probably he would also have greater fluctuations in tempo...

Please don't misunderstand me. I don't want to make your recording bad at all. But at the moment I still don't feel much of the "making music", but rather the notes are simply played back with nice samples. (I'm talking about the violin)

If you want to take my text as an opportunity to make your piece even more musical, then topics like "xVelocity" and tempo variation are certainly important.

When I was at the beginning with samples, I always looked for a "real recording" of my chosen piece of music and put it over my sample version as an audio track. Then I tried to copy the real instrument as good as possible with all my tricks - from the swelling and decay of the notes to the ritardando and the tempo fluctuations... The goal was simply to get as close as possible to the original. In other words: To transform the actually dead and always the same samples into music.

Once again: I hope you can take my words positively to make your piece even more beautiful and musical. But this additional work is not easy. Often it also shows the limits of the samples.

I wish you a lot of success.

Beat

Hi Paul

Thanks for your kind words. Good luck until next time.

Beat

Hello Paul
I love the mix.
Everything sounds fresh, well balanced and the instrument sections sound very natural. The stage depth also sounds as if it were a real recording.
In summary: Bravo!

Hi Thorsteinn

To break down the problem of "missing 2nd violin" a bit more: The meaning of VSL in the libraries of the first generation (Chamber, Solo, Orchestra, Appassionata) was that violin 1 and 2 are played both times with the same violin library. That's no problem, because you can break the second violin to another position on the stage. The sound of the libraries is so neutral and good that it does not stand out at all if both violins are played with the same library. 

So far so good. But you can not do something with this situation, namely when violins 1 and 2 play the same note, it does not sound as if two different violins (-ensembles) are playing this same tone.
One manages the trick that Ben has mentioned above for playing two different samples at the same tone. This gives us the desired result, despite only one library.

You transpose the midi track down and on the VI player you transpose the sound back up on the audio side - or vice versa. Here you can find out how it works.

Because the SE libraries only have samples each whole note, you have to transpose the midi notes +/- 1 whole tone - otherwise you don't get a new sample.
All other libraries are sampled in semitone steps. So you could also transpose +/- semitones.

There are users who always play the 2nd violin with the this trick (samples of the 1st generation) to get a slightly different character.

--------------------------

Later, VSL then offered the Dimension strings that can divide themselves within the sections, by recording individual strings, which can be played as an ensemble, string groups or individually. So "Divisi" is possible.  This library included for the first time a "real recorded 2nd violin".
The Synchron-Strings" library now contains 2nd violins as well. The "Synchronized Versions" were probably prepared by VSL itself so that a quasi-2nd violin was created from the originally Violin Libraries.

-------------------------

Technically, of course, it is better to be able to use a real second violin. However, the fact is that most users program the samples so badly that these errors reveal much faster that the music is played with samples than the fact that both violins are played with the same samples. Producing music with samples is also a highly technical matter. That is why many enthusiastic technicians are involved in this interesting hobby as well. Above all, the technical side is very important to this group. Fortunately, VSL has covered all wishes over time.

All the best and a lot of success

Beat

...However, for each articulation there appears to be only one or two keys that actually make a sound. Why is this? Best Regards, Chris...

Why do you want more keyswitches? I think it's great that we need only one command per articulation (tone outside the range of the instrument).

Even though you have obviously been using VSL samples for a long time, this link might answer your question:

• https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/vimidi/index.php

followed then by this one:

• https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/vibasicpresets/index.php

There are probably more tips on this site which could be helpfull on your way.

All the best

Beat

Originally Posted by: teclark7

Beat

Thanks for your honest constructive feedback. The sample WAV file you did showed remarkably what you mean by the "tone" not being good...

Tim

Hi Tim

The example shows how important it is to always work with references. Our ears (brain) get used to new conditions within a short time. When you are working on a mix for a long time, you usually do not realize that you are completely wrong with the sound. In this situation, only a comparison with a good reference helps.

When you work with MIR: Keep in mind that there are a lot of parameters that can affect the sound: venue selection, microphone method, microphone positions, number of microphones, EQ, amount of "wet" ... even though the tool makes you believe it is customer-friendly in everything (which it is), you can do a lot wrong as well. The recipe also applies in this case: "Less is more." - means: If you do not know exactly what you do, do as little as possible,  ... Then also: Again and again compare with a reference.

Beat

Hello Tim
Earlier, I recommended that you should remove all effects from your strings, because the sound sounded quite far from "natural". Example 3 now may sound different (I did not compare again with 1) but still pretty far from "natural".

I repeat myself again:
With the VSL samples you have a great sounding library. People of VSL took great pains to record the samples, edit and publish them. So you get a great sound without doing anything.

What is/was your mixing goal?
I do not know what you wanted to achieve with all the effect you used for your mix. A more pleasant sound?
Whatever you use to judge the sound is obviously anything but neutral. You probably adjusted the sound so that it sounded great with your "reference". To me it sounds quite discolored frankly. If you have the chance, play your mix in your car, or on your hi-fi system...

A possible help
I allowed myself to play BWV 727 with a Midifile - without big sample optimization. It was all about the sound. I chose Chamber-, Appassionata- and Orchestral strings to get an average string sound. Except for a bit of compression and reverb, I did not use any other effect - so no EQ as well! Then I switched between my sound and your sound. The example starts with VSL-pur...

http://www.musik-produktion-createc.ch/BWV727-Ref.wav (23MB)

 Do you hear the difference? That's what I mean by "compare to a reference". Reference here is the "original VSL recording sound". If you compare your sound with an analyzer, it looks like this:

http://www.musik-produktion-createc.ch/Teclark7.jpg

Green means original - VSL strings / White is your BWV 727.
Incidentally, you also see that you probably used a stereo widener tool. Especially in the lowest frequencies and from 2kHz above "stereo has become a bit too much" or you used a reverb that makes a bit too much stereo here.

Summarized:
With samples you usually get good results, when you take care of correct volume ratios between the instruments and when you manage the left and right things. Finally a bit of a concert hall at the output and that's it.  Such a mini mix often sounds better than a lot of what you can hear in the net, which was "treated with effects" for weeks...
I can only recommend again: Try to use less effects (until you know them better), check your listening situation, use reference sounds and try to hear your own mixes more often on other systems (car, hi-fi, etc.).

---------------------------------------

Sorry I was very direct. That might hurt a little. But keep in mind: I would not have taken all the effort if I did not really want to help you. I hope you can see that positively.

I wish you success
With kind regards
Beat

I was wodnering about the Konzerthaus Organ in terms of playing/using it:

Please look here: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/vi-tips--tricks-3/index.php (No 22)

I have a Synchron instrument (piano) already, so do I need different software to use this organ with my DAW because it is a Vienna Instrument instead?

The use of Vienna Ensemble could be useful (How to play VKH-Orgen):

https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/konzerthaus-organ/index.php

As far as mixing is concerned, the instrument is of course more or less dry recorded. Either you use your own reverb effect to "distance" the organ or you use a MIRx concert venue for bringing the organ into the distance. As long as the two rooms are not the same, it can sound a bit unnatural. But if you let the piano play as close as possible and the organplays rather far away and if you then mix some tail with an algorithmic reverb in the common output channel, that will sound great. I am sure about that.

How do you record pedal? Do you record record the music for the hands first, then play it in the DAW and record the pedal notes with your keyboard, to match your previous playing with the hands?

I am not a pianist. Thus, I play voice by voice or I even set the tones with the mouse ... ;-) (manual by manual)

All the best

Beat

Originally Posted by: teclark7

I am particularly interested on feedback on the mix as I mix exclusively on headphones (ATH-M50x). Any tips on how to mix on headphones from experienced members would be great.

Dear Telark7
The sound of your mix is ​​not very pleasant via my monitoring system. Presumably, you have used quite a bit of sound effects, especially when I read that you also tried Tonal Balance from iZotope etc.

The first tip I can give you: Remove all sound effects (or switch them off)! No EQ, no filter, simply nothing. VSL has recorded all instruments at the highest level and tuned the sounds with the best monitors and devices. The beginner usually breaks these great sounds. He often totally deforms these sounds with EQs and other sound designing tools. He thinks and believes to "filter out" resonances but often that are either important overtones of the certain instrument or those "resonances" come from bad monitors, the listening situation, ... etc.
So turn off all your sound effects and hear how real your strings sound without anything beside a bit of reverb. Later you may be able to cut off the unnecessary low frequencies (LowCut) or raise the high frequencies a bit with a hishelf filter for more presence or lower the hishelf filter a bit for a slightly more distant play. More I woud not do while you are collecting first experiences.

The second tip: Instead of adjusting the sound with iZotope-Tonal-Balance, I would rather take a great recording of strings, brass or whatever is needed and compare your results with those real recording reference. Although tonal balance can be helpful, but unfortunately this tool is probably not very helpful for your ensemble "Organ-Strings". Specially the sound of the organ depends on the stopps which can lead to wrong "total-balance-results". The tool compares the incoming sound with an unknown average...

I wish you a lot of success

Beat

I produced a piece that you do not like at all. That's your right to say so. Typically William in those cases, your feedback was pretty emotional. I responded with "take it easy" and showed you with two video examples that other more famous people perform the piece quite differently than you might want it to have.

In your 2nd feedback, you said I should not tell you to take it easy. Furthermore, you have made me a few reproaches ... I would ignore your tips and answers ...

Now it is difficult for me. What to say? What to do? It's like a trap. As it looks, I have 3 options:

• A) I submit to your judgment, I apologize for the demo, delete everything and promise you never to make such a demo again.
• B) I do not apologize. I give you any answer so you do not feel ignored. No matter what I say, it will end badly:   A "word war à la William" as I  know it.
• C) I am now leaving this forum for 5-6 weeks and enjoy life.

 ----------------------------------------------

I choose C) You will then say that I ignore you. Yes, I do, but I do not need your bad mood. Luckily, I do not have to ask you if I can take C) or not.

BTW: No matter what you write now I will not read it anymore. Save your time and produce your own and better demo.

Beat

William
Calm down and just not so seriously please. Since I've had samples, I've always played things you've never heard before. An example is the Willhel Tell with percussion - in the demos. BTW. Others have played stars and stripes as well with other "orchestrations":
https://youtu.be/1HrhZ1-cPJE
https://youtu.be/bm88Y-ocTyA

Of course you may as always have your opinion. Anyway, I had a few hours of fun and the people in the videos obviously too.

--------------------------------------------------------

Dave

Just for you:

Here is a version that comes straight from the players. Not a single effect was used just finished both in the sum channel. By the way, that's how I understand the library. Because it is recorded as in the syncstage, the user has nothing more to do.

Stars and Stripes without any effect - just out of the players

Beat

You certainly mean the sound of the strings and not the piece.

Rewritten for a better understanding---------------------------

Thirteen years ago, the chamber and solo strings were unbeatable libraries. You could hear real violins with beautiful legatos etc. The libraries had a lot of soul in them, although we play(ed) samples.

Today, new VSL string libraries are released, recorded in a real hall, so that we get strings that already have the missing real space feeling in them ...

Theme "soul and liveliness": In my opinion, today's VSL Strings libraries contain less soul than the old ones. The first time was a loss of "soul" with the dimension strings. The sound of them was different than that of all previous string libraries. Nevertheless some love exactly those "new" sound.

Theme "natural space":   When the Synchron Strings were announced, I thought that we would now get the sense of space, as we know it from live recordings. The samples will now have the real space integrated. To be honest, I am a bit disappointed in that point. I'll have to try out how it sounds when I use only one microphone version at a time, for example MAIN. Maybe then I will receive my desired room feeling. I will see. You just have to gain experience first.
---------------------------

Luckily, there are so many different libraries today, there's something for everyone. As I mentioned in another thread: You just have to use the right library for the corresponding music.

Best
Beat

Hello
Here is a short version of Stars & Stripes by Sousa (Strings Version) - once played with the new Chamber Strings, once with the Synch Str 1 and once together, as mentioned in the Chamber Strings video by Paul Kopf.

With Synched Chamber Strings

20% Wet, no EQs, just a little spiced up with Compressor and Co. and just a little short tail over all (10%, sum channel, ca. 1.8s)
http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/Cre_Syn_ChStr_Stars-and Stripes.mp3

With Synchron Strings 1

Room-Mics 100% Mid 20% Main 100%, no EQs except the double bass, a little bit spiced up with Compressor & Co. just a little tail in the sum channel (10% around 2s).
http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/Cre_Syn_Strings_Stars-and Stripes.mp3

Both together

(just a little tail in the sum channel (10% around 2s).
http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/Cre_Syn_Strings_and_ChStr_Stars-and Stripes.mp3

Have fun

Beat

Hi

Today I tried the VELx thing.
Full-Dynamic, Legato normal, lyric vibrato on all instruments
Room Mix 0dB / Mid -10dB / Main 0dB
These values achieve a nice depth of space. The sound follows the "VELx-curves" very well on all instruments. Because there are 8 layers that can be passed through, I can not make out any gradations. Great!
No EQ, no other effect, just what the synchronous strings deliver. The Reverb of the player is off. Also, note the last "fade-out". It almost goes to "zero" - so it comes very close to a real diminuendo articulation. Great!
And that's how the "dry" result sounds:

Nearer my God to thee (only Syn Str1 Orchestra)

Of course the result is not spectacular, on the other hand, you can not say much against it. Furthermore, we are used to the VSL samples "waking up" with some reverb ...

------------------------------------------

Now I added a solo violin and put it all in a room that has more reverb than the "Synchron Stage". I added a "Cathedral-Tail" (over all) without "Early-Reflections". So the orchestra is still playing in the depth of the Synchron Stage, but now with the tail of a cathedral. The solo violin is still in the foreground because of the missing Early Reflections. Nevertheless, the solo violin plays in the cathedral as well. This leads to a beautiful contrast of "near and far". Beautiful music also.

Nearer my God to thee (with VSL-Solo-Violin2)

I do not want to miss the Synchron-Strings-1 here. I don't know which other VSL strings could do this job.

------------------------------------------

Have fun

Beat

Hi guys
Please do not forget the meanwhile and unfortunately somewhat underrated Chamber Strings Library. Although the library is about 14 years old, it still has not gotten a real "Holbersuite demo challenger" - even not from non-VSL products (see demos). The great thing about the Chamber Strings Library is that it does not have any weakness. Furthermore, it has many articulations (through all the instruments), it is extremely precise, it sounds very musical and it is at the same time soft and lively...

Beat

Thanks Paul

I just added another Playermix in my starting text.

Beat

Hi all
Thanks for the positive and kind feedback.

Hi mh-7635
Yes, the demo music has a few pinpricks. But the demo does not claim to be perfect. For the last 20% perfection you have to spend 80% of the time. Unfortunately, I do not have them. I also used not a lot of Dekka Tree so the Strings sound maybe a little too close specially for those who are normally using MIR.
Those results sound mostly too distant in my mind. So tastes are different...

Demo with a different style of music - Barber-Adagio?
For a piece of music to sound great, you should like the music itself. Since I was able to record a few Barber-Adagio arrangements with Brass, the string version has lost its appeal a bit to me.
As indicated above, I want to try it with a waltz - the Kaiserwalzer or Viennese Blood. Such a demo does not exist yet. That's why this appeals to me more than just filling in the 100th Barber-Adagio version. One more thing: simply that's just the notes. If you have ever produced a slow piece, then you know how difficult it is to bring life into the dead long-sounding samples samples.
The Strauss Waltzes need the size of a symphony orchestra. Exactly what the Synchron Strings are made for. We want to see how they can solve the job.

About demos from other libraries
Many other libraries come only with the dramatically and rhythmically played staccato throughout the orchestra, just as today obviously all film music has to sound. At least that's what the "Synchron Strings" can do just as well.

BTW: An orchestral library from Steinberg has just come out. When you listen to the first 3 demos: once more Staccato-film-music as I mentioned above... Furthermore, I believe that you have to see the current string library as part of the whole symphony orchestra. It will definitely do a well job. For more expression - where you can hear the fingers tapping - VSL will surely deliver synchron -solo, -dimension or as they will be called then.

All the best and later in July - with a walz

Beat

Here is my first Synchron-Demo in different versions.
The E-Partita from Bach-arr. by R. Mangiagalli

A¹) Synchron Strings 1: 60% Roomsound + 100% Mid + Close 60% 
B¹) Synchron Strings 1: 60% Roomsound + 100% Mid + Close 60% + a bit tail 
C¹) Synchron Strings 1: 60% Roomsound + 100% Mid + Close 60% + a bit tail + Solo Strings (just a little)

New on the 4th of July: Another Mix within the Player

A²) Synchron Strings 1: Room100% + Mid 50% + Main 100%  
B²) Synchron Strings 1: Room100% + Mid 50% + Main 100% + a bit tail  

B³) Synchron Strings 1: Room100% + Mid 50% + Main 100% + more tail  
C²) Synchron Strings 1: Room100% + Mid 50% + Main 100% + a bit tail + Solo Strings (just a little)

As I noted in another post, I see great potential for this library when it comes to bringing powerstrings to the start. It is probably optimally used for modern large-scale productions. A small baroque cast is better filled with the dimension or chamber strings.
Therefore, I mastered the whole thing a bit on "pressure". I did not use any effect in the individual string tracks.
On the contrary: I even switched off most of the EQs in the Synchronplayer ... So you listen to pretty much Synchron Strings 1 (+ Solo Violins). Nevertheless, I still used a little "mastering know how" to get the best possible end product.

I am particularly impressed by the deep instruments. Now we have violas that can also assert themselves in large orchestras. The cellos sound very natural. Both instruments have a round, warm sound. And last but not least The bass foundation is phenomenal. Because I used a tail that also fades low frequencies, I had to reduce the bass even a bit with a dynamic EQ ...

Next demo I will try the "Imperial Waltz" to play. Quite a different kind of music. There xVel will come into play ... I'm curious myself ... later in July.

Have fun
Beat


PS You will find this Partita in the VSL-demos. I did it once (2003/4). It was a Mix with (between) the Orchestra Library and the Solo-Library... Now in a new version. above...

Originally Posted by: muziksculp

Demo from  film to possibly Baroque flavored tracks.

Muziksculp  

Hello Muzikculp
You have had so many good posts here. I always liked to read them. But your demand for demos from film music to baroque music with the "Synchron Strings" is absurd. With the Dimension Strings you can not do this balancing act either. At the moment I notice in every letter, in every line and in every post of you that you have made it your goal to "finish" this new library. I think it is fair to say that you do not like a product because of this an that - no problem. And yes I have read that a lot now. So, meanwhile, your message should be clear to everyone. Why always more and more of them?

In your case I would try to contact VSL and ask if there is any way to sell (give back) the license. Maybe you'll find another solution together that will make you feel OK again. I am sure that you will experience VSL as fair as we are used to. In addition, this way extends your life. Hatred unfortunately shortens it.

Incidentally, the idea of "user/VSL demos" is a good one. Unfortunately I will not find the time until mid-July to deliver one or two demos myself.

All the best

Beat

I think that some are disappointed because they were expecting the Chamberstrings or another Dimensionstrings library - now simply integrated with "space".

But this is a string orchestra of great proportions - similar to the Appassionata Strings and not for playing Baroque Music

I recommend everyone to listen to a bit of film music on youtube and listen to the Legatos. There is not much left of the intimate "transition noise", as we are e.g. used to from the Chamberstrings. Listen for example to this track: https://youtu.be/QrhqkEHep88

I believe that such music can be played without a problem with the sync strings.  But try such a piece with the rather thin sound of the Dimension strings...  So it certainly depends on what one uses the Synchrons or the Dimensions. The right library for the right music so to say. Furthermore, I noticed when trying out, that you can make incredible pressure with these strings. There's a lot of potential in that. Unfortunately, I have not had time to try out the library with the new player until now, so I'm with "fahl5": First we have to learn how to use this library properly and also for what kind of music style.
Likewise with this library, too, one can combine them e.g. with the solo strings. The contrast is so great that this probably leads to results as in André Rieu's music: https://youtu.be/yjY-mV0mnqs
I claim to be able to produce such a similar result with the solo violin and the SynchronStrings 1 as well...

All the best

Beat

Originally Posted by: mobileavatar

Hi Beat,

Thank you so much for your sharing and detailed explanation. I really appreciate.

If I use the output of the sample libraries as my final product, I would totally agree with you. There are certainly many workarounds to overcome the limitations, and as musicians/compsoer, we should work with those limits.

Maybe a little bit of my background....

Hello
Thank you for the extensive publishing of your background.
I see that the technical side may be more important, just like trying to make music that sounds as real as possible.
But even if you are a composer ... My music examples should show that 2-voiced instruments do not sound much different than if they were split on Divisi. The Vienna Instrument Pro can play all articulations in multiple voices, even legato articulations. No problem to compose more than one note at a time ...

Take it easy - in the end, the music counts.
Nobody but you knows where the technology was not quite in line with reality ...
By the way: If you want to make a further step forward in terms of reality, then split the two sides:

• "Sibelius for the score"
• DAWx for the perfect sound.

Best regards
Beat

Hi mobileavatar

There are always people who complain about technical possibilities of libraries that are not available or not are possible. This includes the topic Divisi. Sure, in a real orchestra, a register splits when two voices are to be played. But that does not have to be mandatory if you play the same section with samples. Solution: Play both parts twice with the same violins and that's it. As soon as the mix has more instruments, you hardly hear that anymore. BUT...
... Much more important is to do everything with the samples, so that music comes out and not a technical processing of notes. These "mistakes" are often much bigger than the technical limitations of samples. In other words, the divisi possibility of a library does not guarantee "musical music". Anyone who wants to make music with libraries must be willing to compromise on a lot. Samples in themselves are what they are: dead and totally limited. So with those few options you have to get along and make the best out of it.
Musicians can often live with it hard. Technicians always only see the limits.
Both extremes should keep their hands off samples.

Who accepts these "limitations" receives a whole symphony orchestra, which plays around the clock, almost everything, what one wants. And that's still super-fascinating, especially for an old man like me who could only dream of such things for years. 

Suggestion: Go to my website and listen carefully to all the pieces on the right. Ask yourself if "Divisi" would have been necessary in one of the pieces. Believe me, there were often places played twice with the same instruments. I never cared for such things as "Divisi". I just always tried to make music.

All the best

Beat

Thanks for the info.

Beat

Hello

I downloaded all SY-Strings-1 Libararies several weeks and months before the birth of the SY-Player.

Even if the path of the library within the SY-Player is ok and the Library Manager shows the SY-Strings1 ... there are no patches in the SY-Player. Could it be that I have to download all libraries again? ...So that they can be managed by the Synchron_Library manager? Thanks for any help in advance.

Best

Beat

Originally Posted by: jsg

...But when I play that same exact patch with VI Pro running in VE Pro and MIR, MIR seems to cancel out the slot panning.  I have tried both checking and unchecking the MIR preference called "normalize power pan", but this has no effect.  Is this a bug?  The slot-panning is really useful for giving some space to one patch acting as 3 discrete instruments...

Hi Jerry
I hope I understood what you mean. For example, if you play 3 different staccato notes with the same instrument, it may be that each of the notes has a bit of a different panning. This is especially the case with the older libraries (...Solo Violin 1,... but not Solo Violin 2). This probably comes from the fact that the instruments were recorded relatively close to the stereo microphone. Because such recording sessions took several days, and then the best samples were selected, you can actually hear the different pannings of day 1, 2, or 3. If a solo instrument is not positioned in the exact same place (every day) it comes to such unwanted pannings.
When I say "exactly in the same place" I mean "cm-exactly".

The stereo width of the instrument (dry sound) depends on how wide you choose the "oval" (Instrument Icon) within MIR. The narrower the oval the more the sound will be monoized.

Try the following:
Put your flute in front of the conductor (in front of the recording microphone in MIR) and draw the oval in the width so that it occupies the whole stage from right to left.
Now you should actually hear the mini-pannings again.

Beat