Absolutely fabulous! Thanks for sharing this little cinematographic jewel with us, William. 

... and I had a good laugh when I saw that framed map of Vienna's city district on the wall. :-D 

Interesting question, but I'm afraid that there's not one simple answer to it.

When you run two reverbs in parallel, the reverb time will be specified by the longer one, more or less.

As soon as you run them serially, there will be many variables which have an influence on the overall reverb time, like their  order in the signal chain, the relative volumes, the specific frequency-dependent envelopes and so on. The only thing we can take for granted is that the reverb time will be longer than each of them alone, but most likely shorter than their sum.

In short: Trust your ears! :-)

Kind regards,

Originally Posted by: Seventh Sam

[...]

I have no clue how I missed those presets.  I blame too much coffee.  I just A/B'ed using those MUTE presets and I have a much clearer idea of what the second mic array is bringing to the table.  What an indispensable feature.

You're welcome! :-)

Well - for now it is, but there's a workaround (see below).

Yes - just create a surround setup (Quadro might be all you need, actually) and send the Secondary Mic to the rear channels by means of the Output Matrix in the 3rd tab of the Output Editor window.

Regarding separate RoomEQ: Due to the fact that the Secondary Mic is "wet only" by definition you can employ any kind of processing on these channels to sculpt the audio signal derived from this array. Just be aware that the RoomEQ will still affect the signal, so you might be better off without it.

Hi Sam,

ad 1.: The good news first: The mutual interaction between individual Icons happens on a purely acoustical level, due to the typical amplification of certain frequency ranges, while other frequencies will cancel out or increase the perceived width according to the phase and runtime of the surrounding IRs. In other words: As long as you use identical settings for different instances of MIR in two independent VI Frames, the result will be the same as the sound you would get from a single instance.

ad 2: This one is trickier. While I consciously adhered to a conventional audio engineering nomenclature in the GUI, things behave very differently in the background, technically spoken. We would expect that there are indeed individual audio streams happening in real-time for every capsule which we can "solo" instantly by pressing a button. Things are much more demanding in MIR, though: Each virtual "capsule" is the result of 32 individual IRs*, which means that you could run into scenarios where the engine would have calculate up to 512** convolutions (!) in real-time for a single (!!) instrument in a full-blown 7.1 surround setup (... 128*** in case of a ordinary stereo setup with Main and Secondary Microphone.

... it goes without saying that this would easily overburden even the most advanced CPUs with very small arrangements. The MIR-engine introduced an extremely clever (but rarely talked about) technical solution to overcome this hurdle: "Positional pre-rendering"  (... you can read up more details and even more numbers here -> https://www.vsl.info/en/manuals/mir-pro/think-mir#positional-ir ). In short: MIR pre-calculates an instrument-specific set of impulse responses in the moment you put an Icon on a certain position on a stage, taking into account all the individual parameters like chosen Output Formats, the instruments's Directivity Profiles, its Width, Rotation and so on. This set is really small, by comparison (e.g. only 4 IRs for a stereo instance). Like this, MIR Pro is able to run hundred and more Icons in (close to) real-time without busting your CPU. ;-) 

This also means that there is no easy way to "solo" a capsule on the fly as all the pre-rendering calculations would have to be re-done. But I'm fully aware of the problem - which is why I implemented a workaround for those cases were we absolutely need to listen to the Secondary Mic in solo: At the bottom of the list of my Factory Presets for the Main Mic you find three "MUTE" entrances. Choosing one of those will of course trigger the re-rendering of all Icon's impulse responses, but when things are done you can in fact listen to the Secondary Microphone's output.  ... just don't forget to save the settings you've made for the Main Mic before! ;-)

_____________________________

*) 8 directions from each position, recorded in 4-channel Ambisonics = 32

**) 32 IRs per "capsule", 8 capsules Main Mic, 8 capsules Secondary Mix = 512

***) 32 IRs per "capsule", 2 capsules Main Mic, 2 capsules Secondary Mix = 128

PS: Maybe I'm pointing out the obvious - but I forgot to mention that there is the actual "File > Merge Projects"-feature available, too, of course. 8-)

Hi Havergal,

if you want to use MIR Pro across several instances of Vienna Ensemble Pro (on the same machine) you would have to switch to the "conventional" plug-in version, not the one that comes as dedicated part of VE. Sonically you wouldn't lose anything, but some of the Vienna Instruments-specific automatisms (like Profile guessing) won't work anymore, so VIs might need more manual work.

If you want to keep your workflow untouched you could either save MIR Pro' so-called Engine Settings and import them in other instances. Sound-wise the result would be identical, then, but you wouldn't have all Icons visible on one Venue Map.

To share individual instrument settings you can save and recall Channel Sets within VE Pro's - they will appear in any instance.

HTH,

Hi James,

sorry to hear that you're facing problems. I don't run Catalina on my machines, so I can't give it a try myself. Please get in contact with supportATvsl.co.at with a reference to this thread. VSL's Logic specialist Marnix Veenebos will look into it ASAP.

Thanks for your patience!

Originally Posted by: Pixelpoet1985

Many thanks for your thorough answers!

I think that "Consider Microphone Offset" is deactived by default (in MIR Pro and VE Pro), but I'm not sure at the moment. I was just wondering, because I had the setting deactivated and couldn't remember. Maybe it could be integrated into the MIRx settings, so that it automatically get switched on?

That's a valid suggestions, thanks.

This is a common trick to cover poor legato implementation. ;-D ... But seriously: If you want to achieve this when working with MIR Pro, adding some additional reverb tail from MIRacle (or any other good-sounding algorithmic reverb) might be a good idea.

Will have to investigate - that's nothing I'm aware of.

Good idea. I'll put it on the list of feature requests.

Kind regards,

"Distance Dependent Scaling" of the dry signal component's volume has been used for the creation of all MIRx settings, with the additional option "Consider Microphone Offset" activated, too.  

The two remaining options which affect the Dry Signal were switched off when I created these presets, but this doesn't mean that you couldn't use either or both of them in your own creations (or when simply adapting MIRx settings for your needs): 

- "Simulate Air Absorption" is basically a gentle low-pass filter which affects the dry signal, but not the signal that's sent into MIR's convolution engine - a routing that would be hard to achieve otherwise, especially when using MIR Pro's plug-in version without the split routing available in VE Pro. The effect is of course distance dependent, usually quite subtle and will get obvious only when using large distances between the Main Microphone and the instrument's Icon on the Venue's stage.

- "Directivity Filtering" is a very special effect when used on the dry signal component: Usually, directivity filtering which is only applied to the signal sent into the convolution core, depending on the data stored in the Instrument Profiles and the rotation of the Icon. By activating this option, also the dry signal will be filtered when you rotate it. - The perceived effect is pretty much the same as the player would turn the instrument away from the spot microphone. This (virtual) spot mic will stay in its perfect relative position as long as the option is switched off.

... the latter is what I strongly suggest to use as default setting. :-) The effect is of course "wowing" the occasional listener, but I rarely found musically meaningful usage for it.

HTH,

Yes, but this thread you linked to is also a telling example of how to overcomplicate things to such an extent that neither questions nor the answers add additional information anymore, just different wordings describing the same handful of facts over and over again. Be prepared. 8-)

Originally Posted by: PaoloT

[...]

Please let me add an analogy: moving the Icon's Dry/Wet slider is a bit like changing the position of the Close and Room mic faders in the Synchron Player. In MIR you have a single control to mix them, in Synchron Player two (or more) separate faders.

Yes, that's another valid analogy.

The main parameter is individual Icon's Dry/Wet ratio. It defines the volume relation between the (readily positioned, rotated and widened) direct ("dry") signal component and the room's ("wet") response to this signal. The reason why this isn't just a simple pair of two volume sliders or the like is that this isn't a fixed value: Unless you haven't de-selected "Distance Dependent Scaling" for the respective Icon this relation will change when you change its distance from the Main Microphone. - Look at it as the perfectly time-aligned spot mic mixed with the room captured by the Main Microphone.

The global Dry/Wet Offset OTOH is just that: An offset. This fader increases or decreases the individual Dry/Wet ratios of all Icons on a MIR Venue's stage by a chosen percentage. The reason for its existance is that you will run into situations quite often where you suddenly realize that a mix is too wet or too dry already. Another good way to use it is to start a mix at a generally drier or wetter basic setting. - It's important to keep in mind that there will be no "absolute wet" (when using negative values) or "absolute dry" (when using positve offsets) any more for an individual Icon, so use it carefully and consciously.

... neither of the two parameters have to do with (or try to mimic the effect of) absorbers. :-) If you want to make your room less reverberant you might want to scale the overall reverb length by means of the Reverberation Time fader.

HTH,

We have been told back then that the "wide" orientation is hardly used at Teldex. I seem to remember that I even added a draft to the Venue Manual, supplied by the guys running Teldex, which outlines a typical setup  ... (leaves for searching 8-) ...)

... yes, there it is:

-> https://www.vsl.info/en/manuals/mir-roompacks/roompack2#venue-maps

Just scroll down a bit to see it.

The MIRx-manual for Synchron Stage will contain separate screenshots for instrument families. - The differences between those settings and the ones I did for the Synchronized VIs won't be ear-shattering. ;-)

Originally Posted by: Pixelpoet1985

But why are the MIRx settings going to be different? Wouldn't it be nice to have the same settings?

There are several technical reasons/restrictions/differences. Would be easier if I could just copy the settings, believe me ... 

The settings based on the "Synchronized" Vienna Instruments will have the second violins on the left, yes. 

As it's the case with all other MIRx-ed Venues already I'll supply these screenshots as soon as VSL releases the product. Thanks for your patience!

Originally Posted by: Seventh Sam

[...] I'll play around with adjusting the S1 Imager's width with the larger, choir ensemble and see how MIR interprets the different widths.  Hopefully it will be as simple as "if it's an ensemble, make it wider in S1", but are things ever that simple? :) [...]

Actually there's not much to be done in Waves' "S1" (or Vienna Suite Pro's "Stereo Imager") apart from "re-centering" a stereo recording with burnt-in panning information. It's just about proper L/R-balance - otherwise the panning achieved by MIR Pro will not correspond with its visual representation. 

Nothing wrong with trying to increase the intitial width, but chances are that you run into phasing issues or lose important signal parts from the phantom center of the signal. I suggest to keep an eye on a goniometer (or any other corellation measuring device) before routing the signal into MIR Pro, therefore.

All the best,

Hi Sam,

Originally Posted by: Seventh Sam

1) Once I've got the symmetry fixed in the S1 Imager, should I leave the Width control at 1.00 or change narrow/widen it at all?  How will that effect how MIR Pro handles its own width control?

Concept-wise MIR will take care all position- and panorama-related aspects. But please keep in mind that - unlike in case of Vienna Instruments - MIR has no way to "know" about the intrinsic stereo width of a "3rd-party source signal" like your recording.

This is important to make sure that MIR hanldes the stereo width correctly in relation to the source's distance to the Main Microphone.You will have to make an educated guess yourself when adjusting the MIR Icon's stereo width on a stage. - This won't cause real problems for the close-miked solo cello talked about (one or two meters will do, most of the time), but it's certainly something to keep in mind for larger ensembles.

Errrr .... I'm not sure that I understand the question correctly. 8-) Judging from your wording it seems that you mis-take the sound emanation patterns shown in the General Purpose Profiles as microphone characteristics. That's not the case - actually it's exactly the other way 'round: These patterns try to give you a visual idea how the sound dispersion of the source signal will take place in relation to the Icon's main axis (i.e. the volume handle, a.k.a. "the player's nose" ;-) ...). They tell nothing about mic capsules.

The default cardioid pattern might be a good choice for many sources (lots of sound to the front, less to the sides, the top and the bottom, almost nothing towards the back). Still it's a good idea to give other General Purpose Profiles a try for less (or even no) directivity of the source signal's sound, or maybe more directivity when you want to high-ligtht certain aspects of the Venue, e.g. distinctive reflections from a side-wall, to increase the perceived depth of the space.

-> https://www.vsl.info/en/manuals/mir-pro/creating-new-project#instrument-profiles

-> https://www.vsl.info/en/manuals/mir-pro/think-mir#instrument-directivity-profiles

.... if I misunderstood your question then please don't hesitate to let me know. 

Kind regards,

You're welcome! Enjoy MIR Pro. :-)

Sorry if I'm asking the obvious: Is the eLicenser's data-base up-to-date?

Hi Jacques,

if you really _upgrade_ to MIR Pro, your MIR 24 license will get "swallowed" by the full version. If you want to keep both I strongly suggest to get in contact with - I'm sure that VSL's sales people will gladly try to come up with a special package offer for you. ;-)

Kind regards,

Oh, I see.

In this case, temporarily de-activating the option "Auto-add MIR Pro" directly in VE Pro's GUI might be the most straight-forward way to deal with the situation (see attachment).

... you wouldn't have to change Preferences settings all the time, like that.

HTH,

Hi Paolo,

it's late in the night here, so I'll have to check tomorrow - but as a matter of fact I personally never tried to re-introduce Synchronized Vienna Instruments into MIR Pro. 8-) ...

MIR's Preferences should be set to values you have chosen, so it might very well be that you have purposefully left these settings at their defaults - which makes absolutely sense anyway: Why would you try to use the built-in reverb of the sample player when sending its output in MIR Pro, under normal circumstances. :-)

Kind regards & good night,

:-D ... he's one of those who do this regularly, I know. Just a few days ago I had to tell Alan politely that the actual reason why he couldn't reach me on Skype earlier that day might have been exactly this, possibly. ;-D

You're welcome!

Something I should add to my previous posting: These "menu" frequency cuts aren't meant to be used all at the same time. I have tried to collect the most typical offenders for specific Vienna Instruments (i.e. don't use them for other sources than the ones the preset names imply). The suggested usage is to switch the suggested frequency bands off and on while listening to the (hopefully positive) effect.

HTH,

Hi John,

nothing wrong with leaving things alone as long as they don't disturb you. :-)

I created these "menus" (for lack of a better term) for those cases where you suddenly realize that there's a certain harmonic in an instrument's performance which takes too much space. The definition of "too much" is up to you, of course, and it depends on the context as well as on your personal taste and needs whether a harmonic is simply part of the instrument's rich sound, or rather an acoustic annoyance.

My suggestion: As long as you don't hear the difference, don't use these presets.

All the best,