You're welcome!

Welcome BGM,

you were posting the same question on VI Control forum. I saw it there first, which is why I posted my response there as well:

-> https://vi-control.net/community/threads/need-help-in-choosing-a-mir-pro-3d-roompack.143692/

HTH,

Truth be told, I could never find a definitive answer as to where these differing values came from. 8-) But I will try to put the issue to rest with a final solution. Thanks for your patience!

Classical and Scoring mode are identical, with one single (important) difference: In Scoring mode, the default "wetness" of an instance (i.e. the fader centered) is considerably drier:

Mind you: This is not the same as the Global Dry/Wet Offset in the Output Panel! You can still achieve 0 and 100% dry or wet. 

-> https://www.vsl.info/en/manuals/mir-pro-3d/venue-handling#modes

All Natural Volumes refer to the dry input signal.

You can do both, just as you like. :-)

The "official" way is to use an instance of MIR for every instrument, but as a matter of fact it will also work well for submixes of (very) similar instruments. Just keep in mind that in the second scenario you will have to take care for meaningful panning of the individual sources before they enter MIR (e.g. a choir, or a trumpet section, etc.). Use full left to full right here, because MIR will take care for the actual position and width of the whole ensemble.

HTH,

I don't have much more insight into these developments yet than any other user. I assume that VSL's developers have more info, but for the time being, it's actually advisable to ask hardware-specific questions directly at GPU Audio, as it's their underlying technology. 

Kind regards,

No, meaning that the Roles have to be unique. :-)

Example: You use Vienna Instruments Orchestra Strings for 1st and 2nd Violins, and you layer both of them with Chamber Strings. The Roles will have to be named in a way that they aren't just called "1st" or "OrchVi", because there can be just _one_ Role in each Venue Preset with a certain name.

But relax. :-) Assuming that your tracks are already named in a meaningful way it will be enough to right-click the empty Roles in your new Venue Preset to take over the tracks' names. Just make sure that they are unique and telling enough to make them easy to spot for re-assignment once you re-create your template in Reaper. (... the search-field might come handy then, too).

HTH,

Since the introduction of MIR 3D, this is as simple as saving a Venue Preset with "Roles" for all instances (this is not much more work than a few mouse clicks) and reassigning it in Reaper (this requires a bit more effort, as you have to reassign the correct Role to each instrument, but only once). 

You can even export the Venue Preset and copy it to another machine simply by dragging the entrance from the browser of MIR's Preset Manager to the desktop (or any other location shown by Explorer/Finder).

One thing to remember: Correct naming (or more precisely: unique names) is the decisive factor, as this is the only criterion for identifying a Role.

Kind regards,

Originally Posted by: Bat

Nice and clean 5.1 (7.1?) setup.

5.1.4 with an additional 3rd layer a.k.a. "voice of god (VOG)", i.e. an Auro 3D setup that also works for spherical Ambisonics as well as Dolby Atmos monitoring (with slight modifications).

-> https://www.auro-3d.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/101_30pc_06.png

Originally Posted by: Bat

So an alert "Hey buddy check out your damn polarity!" is not practicable :-)

:-D ... the most likely equivalent would be a goniometer (also known as a vector- or stereo-scope) in your listening bus, which you would want to keep an eye on:

-> https://media.vsl.co.at/images/VS_Pro_Goniometer_960x720.jpg

In fact, I have my metering visible on a dedicated screen all the time, the goniometer being one of them (albeit the RME Audio one, as it works so nicely with my audio hardware):

-> https://photos.app.goo.gl/d9vCybTonKNvNQSP9

That's a perfectly valid idea! But the thing is: there is no ultimate "right" or "wrong". :-) MIR 3D is "just" an empty room which lends itself to any type of instrument seating and many different recording approaches.

A source position that might cause a phase problem with one microphone setup (e.g. a so-called "Blumlein pair" of two crossed Figure-8 capsules) might sound perfectly fine for the same source as soon as the Main Microphone is used in form of an M/S array with an omni-capsule for the M(id)-component. Similarly, it will make a difference whether the source's stereo width is reduced to mono, or increased to 10 or 12 meters in case of a huge ensemble. ... all of these classical coincident stereo techniques can be modeled easily within MIR 3D, all kinds of source positions, rotations and sizes will have and influence, too.

Our options get even more diverse as soon as we leave the domain of 1st Order Ambisonics and proceed to the world of Higher Order Ambisonics. Here it makes more sense to map the source positions to a spatial "sphere" than to think in terms of simple virtual microphone capsules. Consequently, possible phasing problems will most likely occur with a completely different set of parameter choices.

Finally, all of these points are moot when mixing in surround or 3D. While phasing between individual speakers is still possible on a technical level, it will be much less of an issue due to the obvious fact that all the other speakers will counteract any audible problems.

Bottom line: While I absolutely understand your quest for "once and for all" solutions, it rather makes sense to think through some basic audio engineering aspects to exploit MIR 3D to its full extent. There are full-blown, tried-and-tested Venue Presets with "Roles" for 450+ sources available which can serve as staring points for your own creations. And I'm happy to tell you that many, many Venue Presets for "empty" stages are about to be released in an update in the near future. :-)

Kind regards,

Vienna Suite (non-pro): C:\Users\[YOUR USER NAME]\AppData\Roaming\Vienna Suite Presets\

Vienna Suite Pro: C:\Users\[YOUR USER NAME]\AppData\Roaming\VSL

... in both cases, there are subfolders for each plug-in you have created user presets for.

HTH,

Well, that's quite obvious: In your "bad" examples you were moving the sources already beyond the (hypothetical) line that separates the areas with in-phase and out-of-phase imaging. :-)

For better understanding please look at my (overly simplistic*)) scribble in the attachment: You will see three equilateral triangles. The "M" marks the Main Microphones' positions, "L" and "R" shows the position of the channel(s) with the most extreme panning on your stage. In case of the red triangle, sources between L and R will produce mostly in-phase results, sources outside this area will produce out-of-phase results (especially for the dry signal). However, in case of the green triangle the L and R "borders" would rather be like outlined by the light-grey triangle, which means that the sources that sounded out-of-phase with M1 will be still in-phase with M2.

*) "overly simplistic", as in the end it totally depends on the chosen Output Format (read: virtual microphone array) how the individual capsules will pick up sound from the stage and the hall. Like in real life. :-) Keep in mind that MIR is "just" about natural halls, with natural distances and relations between its virtual items. 

HTH,

Originally Posted by: Cyril Blanc

You tell me to use different venue, can you play all the venue at the same time with VI instruments and a few audio tracks ?

Just click the "+"-sign besides the active Venue Tab to create a new one. Use the Instrument List on the left to move Icons between tabs, or use the Venue-pull down on top of the Instrument Assignment panel (see screenshot).

Kind regards,

This seems to be a Logic-specific thing that I have never experienced on my systems, but I will ask around if there is a setting or Logic preference that allows normal operation. We'll get back to you ASAP.

Kind regards,

Hi Bat,

as in real life, this depends entirely on the relationship between the source (and its chosen width) and the chosen microphone(s). This is evident from the example in your "PS" where the main microphone is significantly further away from the source if the " Middle of the nave" position is chosen.

Furthermore, it makes a difference if the L&R channels of the already positioned dry signal component are out-of-phase (which indeed might cause problems when listening in mono), or if only the resulting reverb contains a lot of decorrelated / out-of-phase information (which we mostly perceive as a pleasant, sought-after spatial envelopment).

Please post some examples (screenshots might do) to facilitate the discussion! :-)

Kind regards,

Originally Posted by: Cyril Blanc

Hi Dietz,

What will be your recommandation for a full orchestra, big choir, pop drums, guitares and synth ?

Very likely more than one Venue. Drums and guitars won't work in an orchestral space. In case of synths it depends a lot on the sound and its function.

E.g: Orchestra: SSV Wide

Choir: SSV Wide + algorithmic reverb, or Monastery Church Pernegg

Pop drums + guitars: Studio Weiler Live Room (heavily distorted guitars might sound even better in Studio Weiler Stone Room, instead).

Synths: .... ? ... maybe Festspielhaus Salzburg Boehm Saal (in case you need "epic" space).

HTH,

Hi Bat,

glad to hear that you like MIR 3D - thanks for the friendly words! :-)

For the typical epic brass fanfare, the foyer of the Vienna Konzerthaus would be my first choice. You can literally choose any relation between instrument and microphone, from 1m on the same level up to about 35 meters distance two floors higher :-)

The Festspielhaus Salzburg - Böhm Saal would be a close second, especially if you choose the balcony positions at the "stone end" of the hall.

If I have misunderstood your question and you are actually looking for a huge room without too much reverb, then there is only one, but a very obvious choice: Festspielhaus Salzburg - Großes Haus (i.e. the Great Hall of the famed Salzburg festival theatre). This space is really incredible, and I dare to say that we captured it really well. 8-)

Still too much reverb? Then there's a less obvious selection that could do the trick: Hall Two of The Sage Gateshead. While being renown as a typical chamber music venue, I'm using it as an additional virtual 3D space for the mix of a quite famous 7-piece brass ensemble right now that has been close-miked, too. Everybody loves the results I'm able to achieve that way. 8-) 

HTH!

If you like to measure, use a goniometer like the ones included in Vienna Suite and Vienna Suite Pro and make sure that the resulting wet signal looks like a perfect circle when fed with decorrelated pink noise. This way you'll use the maximum stereo width without risking out-of-phase signals.

Repeat the measurement for each Icon individually.

HTH,

Originally Posted by: ducharme

[...] Wouldn't "roughly forms an equilateral triangle" mean that the closest should have the least width and the furthest away should have the greatest width? Or am I overthinking this?

Both. ;-D

Yes, the Icon closest to the main microphone will have the narrowest stereo width, while the most distant icon will be the widest. However, do not take the "equilateral triangle" too literally as mathematical advice, but rather as a starting point for meaningful settings that avoid the resulting reverb's stereo width being too exaggerated or too narrow.

HTH,

Originally Posted by: Cyril Blanc

How can you also reset the angle, the placement and the width ?

Yes, same workflow as with Volume.

If you want to treat them as an ensemble, that will work. If they are meant as soloists, it's certainly better to process them in individual instances of MIR 3D.