Hi Robert,

I totally agree!

Considering that this is a MIR demo piece, it's pretty safe to say that Guy used Vienna Instruments libraries exclusively - perhaps in the form of Synchron-ized instruments. But we'll ask the man himself, that's better than just guessing. 8-)

Stay tuned!

No need to apologize. :-) We are happy to read feedback here, but even I don't watch the forum constantly. Writing to support is safest and usually yields the fastest results.

Kind regards,

Hi,

I informed VSL support of the issue.

Note: It's aways a good idea to get in contact with directly in cases like this. The forum is meant as a platform for user interaction. It's not VSL's official support channel.

See also this Welcome message. :-)

Kind regards,

Hi Cyril,

I know, that language barrier is difficult to overcome, but I have a really hard time to understand what you're actually asking for.

I have no idea what you are comparing because still don't understand what you're actually doing. Are you trying to apply Roles that were created for Vienna Instruments (and consequently Synchron-IZED libraries in Synchron Player")? This won't give you the intended result.

That takes me by surprise, because the settings you show in your screen-shot don't look remotely like the Role presets I created for that Venue.

Well - that's a computer brand, but judging from your signature you're a Logic user. Is this DAW also to host for MIR 3D, or are you using VE Pro for hosting it?

The Natural Volume setting are meant to be seen as a starting point only. They only make sense when they are applied to all Icons in a VI-only arrangement (... no 3rd-party sound sources). Please make sure that you don't double these settings inadvertently, e.g. by using your host's volume faders.

Yes, there are screenshots for all Venue Presets. They are derived from legacy MIR Pro's "MIRx" settings and should look similar to the pictures shown in the MIRx manual:

-> https://www.vsl.info/en/manuals/vienna-instruments-mirx/venue-details/synchron-stage-vienna#sy-stage-wide

Well, that decision has been made when the orchestra seating for Synchron Instruments was defined. Not much I can do about it in a preset collection that's meant to match these settings as closely as possible. But the nice thing about MIR is that you can put the respective Icons anywhere you want to hear them play yourself. :-)

Hope that helps,

Originally Posted by: CLAUDE MARC BOURGET

[...] For example, for the video you gave me the link to, Vienna has blocked the automatic translation of the subtitles. It's hard for non-English speakers... [...]

As a follow up to this remark I'm happy to tell you that VSL's anchor man, Paul Kopf, has already added this feature to the tutorials mentioned above. :-) Please check them out again.

Kind regards,

Hi Cyril,

"being disappointed" isn't good, but as a description for a technical issue it's a bit vague. Please explain in more detail: Are you using Synchron Libraries or Synchron-ized Vienna Instruments? Where do the Roles you're loading come from? What's your host, what are you trying to achieve, what are the reproduction steps, and most of all: What is it that is disappointing you?

Thanks in advance.

Kind regards,

Originally Posted by: CLAUDE MARC BOURGET

Thank you very much Dietz for taking the time to answer me.

You're welcome!

That's the only way to have Cubase/Nuendo convert a mono or stereo source to a multi-channel track without re-creating each and every track manually. The latter would be Steinberg's "official" way to do it. IOW: That's a Cubase/Nuendo issue, not something that's strange with MIR 3D specifically.

If you don't like the "panning device" approach or work in stereo only, you can use MIR 3D in the conventional track insert slots too, of course. (Other DAWs like ProTools or Logic allow for switching channel counts by inserting a plug-in, so the issue is non-existent in these hosts.)

If you encounter compatibility issues please get in contact with ASAP. I can't help in that matter.

All typical surround and 3D formats should work, actually.

I'm pretty sure that you have activated Cubase's option to release the audio driver when the app isn't in the focus of the OS:

I assume that there was a good reason for doing so, but I'll forward your request internally just to make sure that this wasn't just an oversight.

Kind regards,

Examples for MIR 3D routing in 3D in several popular DAWs here:

-> https://www.vsl.info/en/tutorials/guides/mir-pro-3d-exploration-pack

Surround- and 3D capabilities of Vienna Suite Pro are totally dependant on your host. In Nuendo/Cubase and ProTools it's sufficient to open an instance in a track with the desired channel-count. (... see first screen-shot below).

Synchron-ized libraries are stereo only, much like the Vienna Instruments libraries they are derived from. They are meant to be used with MIR 3D for surround- and 3D-formats, bypassing the internal positioning and reverberation tools of the Synchron Player.

Synchron Library specifics are not my forte, but the way _I_ do 3D routing for Synchron Instruments is shown in the second screen-shot for a 5.1.4 setup: I actually use direct outs (just have to make sure to activate enough stereo outputs) and use the hosts panning capabilities for the actual 3D routing. ... this might not be the official way, though. :-)

HTH,

Dear all,

there's a little-known gem hidden in the vast collection of VSL's tutorials, called

The MIR 3D Exploration Pack.

It consists of ready-to-use, fully set-up and mixed MIR sessions for several major DAWs, namely Cubase/Nuendo, Logic Pro, ProTools and Reaper, complete with audio files and instructions. Topics such as 3D routing and binauralisation approaches are also covered. And of course it works with demo versions of all relevant products, too, so you can get your feet wet before actually entering the world of MIR 3D. :-)

Enjoy!

Hi Jacob,

VE Pro is compatible with most typical surround- and 3D-formats, and in principle it's fully up to the task from a purely technical POV.

But as much as I would like to recommend it for the setup you have in mind - I can't. VE Pro is a great solution for hosting virtual instruments outside the actual DAW, but in this scenario all audio is created within VE Pro and not routed to it from the outside. While you can of course send plain audio to VE Pro, too, this was meant be seen as a solution to combine a handful of audio track with Vienna Instruments put into MIR Pro.

Like I just wrote in another recent thread: According to VSL's developers, the "Audio Input" feature of Vienna Ensemble Pro has to be considered "experimental". Modern operating systems as well as the plug-in hosts of today aren't very fond of code that opens "side doors", so to speak. (It's actually quite astonishing that this works at all.) The feature comes with huge latencies, and you will also see that VE Pro's Audio Inputs will tax the CPU considerably. 

In other words: VE Pro is not meant to be seen as virtual rack for send-FX. Instead, I suggest to optimise a few parameters to allow for more instances of MIR 3D:

- System latency (the higher, the better)

- MIR buffers (again - the higher, the better) - see MIR 3D's Preferences

- Some DAWs (e.g. Cubase/Nuendo) offer additional buffers for pre-rendering FX in the background ("ASIO Guard")

- Activate MIR 3D's Preference for "Dynamic Processing" and make sure that MIR isn't kept "active" by very quiet noise ("analog" processing, dither, etc.).

- Omit the LFE channel from MIR-based mixes. This avoids unnecessary convolutions (MIR's impulse responses themselves won't produce audio below 50 Hz anyway, only the direct signal).

- Use "Ensembles" (i.e. submixes) ofsimilar sources to feed one instance of MIR instead of many individual ones.

- If you are working on finishing a mix: Freezing / rendering-in-place of already set-up tracks will help, too.

HTH,

PS: Of course this is a non-issue in case of VE Pro's actual task, i.e. running virtual instruments controlled by MIDI input. In that scenario off-line processing will work like a charm. :-)

Hi again,

according to VSL's developers, the "Audio Input" feature of Vienna Ensemble Pro has to be considered "experimental". Modern operating systems as well as the plug-in hosts of today (and even more so - Cubase, specifically) aren't very fond of code that opens "side doors", so to speak. It's actually quite astonishing that this works at all ... 8-) ... consequently, you will also see that Audio Inputs will tax the CPU considerably.

Running these "hacks" off-line is even more demanding, it seems, so real-time operation seems to be indeed the "official" way to go in case you use Audio Inputs of VE Pro. 

Sorry to have no better news for you.

Kind regards,

It's a mixer, to a certain extent, but it's not a monitoring device. 

MIR is a quite deep and complex product as it is already. We have tried to leave out features that might come handy on certain occasions, but would actually just double the amenities offered by the typical host.

Enjoy MIR 3D! :-)

Welcome Jacob,

Personally I do this in the Control Room panel of Nuendo, most if the time. If your host doesn't offer similar features then there are also a lot of freeware plug-ins which allow for soloing / muting individual channels of a track, e.g. Melda Production's MChannelMatrix.

HTH,

Hi Michael,

sorry to hear that you're facing problems, but I'm sure that they can get sorted out quickly.

Please get in contact with ASAP, including all system-relevant details, ideally the system report created by the Vienna Assistant app. It might be important to point out that you're using "legacy" MIR Pro 24.

VSL's support team will take care for the issue.

Thanks for your patience & kind regards,

Originally Posted by: Cyril Blanc

I am waiting for and answer from support on how to change venue to test the deferent venues.

Doesn't the Venue Selection in MIR 3D's main GUI work for you? (.... #7 in this screenshot). This should open the Venue Selection window (see this screenshot in the manual).

Well - actually MIR is always working _within_ the host. The small plug-in you put in the track is doing all the processing tasks. It's just that all plug-ins share a common main GUI, but that's completely independent from the host. In any case - MIR "knows" nothing about other plug-ins in Logic's channel.

If I intend to put it into MIR, then the answer is "yes".

Sorry - that's not my area of expertise. Thanks for your understanding!

Kind regards,

Originally Posted by: Cyril Blanc

[...]I don't understand your answer, Logic store all the instrument characteristic and send them to MIR when you load your song ; MIR send them back to Logic if you adjust there characteristic in MIR, why can't you send the "role" of the instrument when you fill the venue for the first time.

In Logic (and every other conventional host) here is no data connection between Vienna Instruments and MIR 3D other than the audio stream. No way to make MIR aware of the meta-data that would make the "guessing" of the profile possible. VE Pro _has_ this additional connection, though.

Synchron Instruments rely on samples recorded directly at Synchron Stage Vienna, using multiple microphones in different distances, with "burnt-in" panning and reverb), while the so-called Synchron-IZED Instruments use samples originally recorded at Silent Stage for Vienna Instrument plus individual, hand-crafted impulse responses and panning information for them.

There are dedicated Mixer Presets for them in Synchron Player called "99 MIR Unprocessed" which brings Synchron-ized instruments back to their original, unprocessed state. Use _this_ setting when you plan to put a Synchron-ized source into MIR 3D.

.... here's a comparison of all VSL sample-based products:

-> https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Products

HTH,

Welcome Michael,

sorry to hear that you're facing problems. I'm sure that VSL developers will come up with a solution quickly. In the meantime, try to bounce your mix in realtime, not offline. This work-around is an old Cubase/Nuendo-trick to avoid problems like yours.

It will also help to get in contact with directly. The forum is not the primary support channel for VSL.

Kind regards,

You like to keep us busy over the weekends, don't you? ;-)

Originally Posted by: Cyril Blanc

Since I have discover that with instruments in Logic you have not the problem of Logic using one or two core if you use VI and synchron instrument and that VE is causing more load on the CPU ; I have decide to use VSL instrument IN Logic.

It will be great if you could add the "Guess" function when using MIR PRO 3D instruments in Logic..

That would be great, yes. As soon as Apple allows VSL to implement the code in Logic that allows MIR 3D to "talk" directly with Vienna Instruments plug-ins in the same track we will be able to do this. ... I wouldn't hold my breath, though. 

It's not a "policy". Vienna Instruments and Synchron Instruments rely on very different approaches. Allow me to bring in a comparison: The former can be seen as a collection of finest raw cooking ingredients which will enable the cook to create great dishes according to his/her own taste and needs. The latter is a luxury chef's menu you can buy ready-made - you just have to put it in the oven. 

In other words: Synchron instrument's paradigm baked-in panning and reverb does not match the approach of MIR, which was invented to cover exactly these aspects. 

If you think that you bought the wrong product please get in contact with . Quoting the FAQ: 

Unlike many other sample library developers, we offer a "No Hassle" return policy.

• If you're not satisfied with your purchase at the VSL web shop, for any reason, you may return it for a refund or an in-house credit, within 14 days from the day of purchase.
• Please get in touch with our sales team, we will walk you through the process.

No, just don't put them into MIR.

Like I wrote above - they are different product lines with different use cases.

Let me google that for you: 

-> https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Vienna_Software_Package/MIR_Pro_3D#!MIR_Stories

Hey, Alan is a sound engineer - his mic is _supposed_ to sound bad. ;-D Maybe we should ask him to talk more slowly next time. 

There are several videos available on MIR 3D's sub-page of VSL's web-site, and of course there's always MIR 3D's online manual (... the manual of legacy MIR Pro has a nice tutorial-section, too).

Hope that helps.

Interesting, thanks. 

Does this mean that we can mark the issue as "solved" now?

Kind regards,

Originally Posted by: Oceanview

I wonder whether it might be helpful to make that point in the product description?

You mean, something like "Objects in mirror are closer than they appear" ...? ;-D  ... but joking aside - please tell us what you would expect to read there. VSL will look into any meaningful suggestion with gratitude.

Exactly. There's a reason why "sacral music" is considered to be a style of its own ...

Andreas Olszewski is our local scoring app guru, but I seem to remember that Sibelius support only stereo output. You might need an additional host like VE Pro or a full-fledged DAW for this task.

Hello Cyril,

Originally Posted by: Cyril Blanc

Hello

1) I could not find the "guess" function that is in MIR PRO ; it's a long work to set all VSL instrument

Please see the attached screenshot where to find the "Guess"-function. Note that this is a feature that will work within Vienna Ensemble / Pro exclusively.

Interesting idea, but due to the fact that Vienna Symphonic Library has yet to transform into Vienna Bigband Library ;-), I assume that this won't happen in the foreseeable future. 

I think that's the one you're looking for:

-> https://youtu.be/jFhZcvGXdDU

I beg your pardon ...? 8-/ Sorry, but I don't understand the question.

Roles can include Character EQs, but they don't have to. In fact all factory presets a.k.a. "Vienna Standards" (a.k.a. "MIRx Settings") there is a suggested Character EQ for the respective Venue Preset it comes with. OTOH you can save your own custom-designed Roles without Character EQs. 

If you plan to add your own EQ settings I suggest not to use Characters, to avoid over-processing.

Again - I'm not sure that I understand the question, sorry. Please rephrase ...

Hard to judge from the distance, without any audio examples. Might be a question of composition, arrangement, programming / performance or mixing. Or are you talking about GUI-handling rather than the resulting audio output ....?

Kind regards,

That's good to hear !

Originally Posted by: Oceanview

(the 9-10 second reverb length is wild!).

Yes, they are. Andone of the reasons why I didn't create "Standard Roles" for this beautiful space, simply because it's soooo non-standard ... :-)

Enjoy MIR 3D!

Hi,

Not all Venues come with "Role"-presets for Vienna Instruments / Synchron-ized Instruments. In quite a few cases size and nature of a room defy its use for standard orchestra seating - as great as they might sound. 

But apart from that you should be able to load you new Venues from MIR 3D's Venue Selection dialog at t the bottom of the Venue Map. If you don't see all your licensed Venues in this browser then there either went something wrong with the installation (downloading alone is not enough!) or the license transfer.

HTH,