Thanks for the confirmation!

Could someone confirm that VSL and VE Pro + Snow Leopard are not yet *officially* compatible? The latest available downloads cite 10.5.8 as the most recent for Mac OSX.

Sorry for any redundancies. I'm only endeavoring to avoid unnecessary user errors.

Many, many thanks!

JWL

I was just thinking about Samplemodeling.

Another one which may be worth a look would some of the stuff from Ueberschall Liquid Horn Section. I don't know about the trills, specifically on this one. Best Service's Latin World might be another consideration, and perhaps even closer to what you're looking for.

Hmm-- the demo is actually pretty good to my ears-- I might have to pick this one up myself!

You raise some interesting questions and there are no easy answers. 

If you want trills, Special Edition Plus has them, as does the full version of VSL Brass 1 & 2. But keep in mind that VSL, though quite versatile, is a Viennese *classical* orchestra. The Tito Puente-style trills you want are the result of a very different sort of mouth piece, a very different instrument, and a style of playing that is at once virtuosic but arguably less finessed than that which one might find in VSL. It may be a question of culture and style.

Doits and fall-offs will more likely be found in some other collection. Broadway Big Band (Sonivox-Fable Sounds) is a very different library. But it might help to expand your stylistic options.

The issue in all cases is that what you want requires some cash outlay, which is a commitment that must be weighed against how badly (and how quickly) you need to have access to these sounds.

Same here.

Are there any Mac users out there who are *not* having problems with eLicenser right now? If so, what versions of OSX, which DAW and what version, and which computer model are working well in combo?

I guess it was assumed that since two machines would be in use that both would be running VSL samples. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

There should be no problem backing up the library and moving it to another machine..... Two things to keep in mind:

1. Run your Directory Managers-- and 2. It is necessary to have a Vienna Key (or Synchrosft/eLicense dongle) for each computer.

(And no, none of your friends will be turned to frogs!! )

You will have to buy the second dongle and then use the eLicenser software to transfer the license for your Solo Strings to it. It's very simple to do, although it only sounds complicated the first time.

I have Brass and Percussion on a G5 slave and the entire library on my Intel MacPro. When I only want to use one machine, I put both Vienna Keys into my Mac Pro to have access to a few sounds from the entire library when two machines are not needed. For larger projects, I'll put the Brass/Percussion dongle back into the slave machine to run both machines together.

VE3 and VE Pro will allow you to connect the two computers together using only an ethernet *crossover* cable. This is the simplest connection one can make with two machines, but make sure it's a *crossover* cable and not a standard ethernet *network* cable. Both audio and MIDI are transferred without the need for a second audio or MIDI interface. It's a very elegant utility and it works amazingly well. It greatly simplifies managing your VSL instances.

Note: If you want to use VE Pro, it is important that OSX is v.10.5 or better. VE3 works well in 10.4.x.

Best of luck!

I've considered adding a PC, but most of my work, like yours, is also Mac-only. But I'd need a lot more justification for mastering a different OS than LCC/eLC.

On that note, I'm seeing Core 2 Duo Quads for $2300 now, which is a lot less than what I paid for my 2 x Dual-Core. Getting a refurb 2009 model might be a consideration for me, but it's always a toss between getting the "latest and greatest" for the sake of "longer-gevity" or playing it safe with an older system with the risk of a shorter shelf life.

It's not clear when Apple will release the next wave of MacPros, but some have hinted at Fall, 2010. One thing I find encouraging comes directly from Vienna Ensemble. Not having to buy audio and midi interfaces means that those funds could be directed (in whole or in part) towards a newer machine as new technology would be aimed to support them. When I bought my 2 x Dual Core a couple of years ago, I had NO IDEA that it would not boot in 64-bit mode once Apple got around to releasing an OS with at 64-bit kernel. I was told that it was "64-bit-ready". At the time, I suppose it was since Apple was still considering support of 64-bit Carbon frameworks.

But the rug was pulled from beneath many of us. My 2 x Dual Core, as a result, simply became the machine that my older G5 hoped to be instead of being the viable investment in a true 64-bit future that I thought would happen by now on the Mac platform. It's close, but no cigar. This alone remains a viable temptation for building at least one PC monster sidecar.

Much to consider.

Ever since getting the First Edition of VSL, the whole LCC/eLC procedure has been a cause for concern for a number of people. I'm not sure if this is a Mac thing or not, but I do recall some PC users saying that it works better for them than iLok. As a Mac user, I find iLok friendlier---

---but I must also say that LCC/eLC has gotten a lot better over the years. This latest hiccup, though serious, feels more the exception rather than the rule as it once did. There was a time when license misreads were daily and the speed of license reads were just miserable. I can't say that's the case as much now.

But I'm also glad that you got things sorted out, mhschmieder, and I hope the forthcoming update will work even better for us all!

It almost doesn't matter. Effects can be used on either the VE mixer or the DAW mixer.

However, on one machine, since VE is more or less a submixer, you might find more flexibility with being able to process VE's channel strips independently without having to set up a lot of complex bussing.

There is a danger of "redundancy" when using two mixers this way. One thing I need to watch while refining my workflow is to take care not to have too many critical mix elements spread over too many places at once. I suspect that in some cases it might be easier for me to just set the instruments and power panning in VE and then to use my DAW mixer templates which already contain my most often used effects in a more familiar workflow. I can see how VE can "take over" because it is capable of doing so many things very well.

But so much of it hinges on how one prefers to work.

Thanks, Martin. 

Since starting this thread, though, I pondered whether or not to install VE Pro on the G5, but tried VE3 on both machines instead. Still came up with no connection.

With nothing to lose at this point, I'll install VE Pro on the G5 once I've had a bit of sleep. It has been a long day.

Thanks again.

I have a MacPro running 10.5.8 with VE Pro. I also have a G5 running 10.4.11 with VE3. When I start the VE Pro Server and the VE3 Service utilities on each respective machine, nothing happens. In VE Pro, I was able to save a metafile, but was not able to get the two machines to "shake hands".

Just to make sure the ethernet cable was not defective and that it was properly connected, I quit the Server and Service on both machines. Then I went to the Finder's GO menu on the MacPro and looked at that particular Network. I still had my G5 listed there and was able to connect that way. Ports and cables are fine.

Question: Shouldn't VE Pro on the MacPro in 10.5.8 talk to VE3 on the G5 slave running 10.4.11?

Thanks.

Dude-- you just made a friend for life. I'm a sucker for great metaphor. You managed to encapsulate the lovable and functionally dysfunctional family most ideally!! (Why do I think of Al and Peg Bundy?) I'd be curious to know how you'd incorporate their offspring into the equation!!!

Indeed-- IAC is one of those Opcode things (I believe) which MOTU retained. I've set up 64 MIDI channels in it, but have tuckered myself out for the day to pursue making the connections with VE Pro. There is potential here, though. I've done something similar with EWQLS Choirs where some aspect of it requires a standalone-type instantiation outside the DAW host.

I got Logic 4.x back in the first days of VSL where ESX24 was my only real Mac option. I should mentioned that I was on a G4 at the time, which did me no good. Life is better now (with a MacPro, Snow Leper, and L9), although my network has remained small as OSX restrictions have limited VE Pro to 10.5.8 and higher. I'm trying to get everything into 10.6, but all efforts so far simply make me want to go to bed early.

Anyway, I'll be exploring the possibilities (or impossibilities) in Logic 9.x pretty soon. First things first--- Digital Performer and IAC. If I can get 128 MIDI channels published and properly connected, I'll be golden!!

Cheers M8!!

JWL

Plowman--

You have always been of "royal" blood around here in my book. Thank you kindly, Sir. You've just confirmed that I'm not crazy--- and yes-- the Logic-related discussion helps a great deal.

Granted-- only one MIDI port per instance in Logic is a tad different than DP. By default, I can access 16 MIDI channels in Digital Performer. But I'm currently exploring DP's "interapplication MIDI" feature. With this, I can set up any number of midi channels so that they are published and available from DP's MIDI track assignment options. What I don't know yet is if ReWire will go the distance with making the connection with VE Pro using all of those MIDI channels.

I have Logic 9 as well, but you know it gets to a point where the "apparent" limits of utility software are starting to dictate what DAW I use for which purpose. Logic will/won't let you do one thing whereas some other DAW will/won't let you do other things that VE Pro has to offer.

Well, I ramble. Sorry for that.

But thanks for the link. I appreciate it immensely!

I forgot to mention:

In OMNI mode, I can only access the first 2 MIDI channels....

We're using VE Pro on a MacPro. For the most part, all is well.

In the server preferences, which I booted before booting Digital Performer 6.02 in OSX 10.5.8, I was able to set its preferences to 16 MIDI channels per instance. These 16 MIDI channels appear as "available" inside Digital Performer.

However, the plugin only allows for "Plugin MIDI In 1-8". I'm still exploring the possibilities in case I've missed something, but I'd like to request that "Plugin MIDI In 1-16" be added in an update, if possible. So many third-party VIs still offer the standard 16 MIDI channels. Again-- if I've missed something, please let me know, but so far I cannot access MIDI channels 9-16

In the meantime, I'm only starting to explore VE Pro in standalone mode to access the 1024 MIDI channels. Any help or advice would be appreciated.

Thanks,

JWL

Check here:

http://www.audioease.com/Pages/Altiverb/AltiverbStagepositions.html

Digital Performer allows for multiple midi channels per track. This was designed during the days of hardware synths and samplers.

Since the arrival of virtual instruments, there have been many changes in technological concepts-- such as VSL and its approach of allowing multiple articulations in a SINGLE matrix on a SINGLE MIDI channel. This great simplified the need, for example... in the First Edition when used with Logic, to have each articulation for a single instrument loaded into lots of *separate* instances of EXS24. Now, one single instance of VSL can host over 100 articulations (144, I believe, with some consideration to one's RAM and hardware limitations).

As far as Digital Performer goes -- in the context of MIDI-- there's no need to be concerned about there bing 16 MIDI channels *assignable*. The important thing is that each instance of VSL can only receive on one MIDI channel, no matter what features any particular DAW may offer.

You may assign any MIDI channel in DP to control VSL, but generally, each instance will work quite well with each assigned to MIDI channel 1.

Because of the way VSL works, I guess it's safe to say in this case "it doesn't make any difference which MIDI channel is used". If you have four instances and they are all assigned to MIDI Channel 1, keep in mind that these are all different MIDI Channels 1 because each instance of VSL is different.

You will see:

Vienna Instruments 1-1, 1-2, 1-3.... up to 1-16

Vienna Instruments 2-1, 2-2, 2-3....  up to 2-16

Vienna Instruments 3-1, 3-2, 3-3...  up to 3-16

.... and so on. The point is that MIDI channel 1 on the first VSL instance is "not the same" as MIDI channel 1 on subsequent instances.

One reason why it's a good idea to see at least 16 MIDI channels in DP is that other VIs make very good use of those 16 MIDI channels, like Kontakt. However, DP will still "publish" (or "show") all available MIDI channels in its system whether or not a virtual instrument can make use of all of them--- because not all virtual instruments are set up to work with multiple MIDI channels in a single instance.

Hope that helps.

The critical part of it as far as 64-bit threading goes is not that the machine or "parts" of the OS are 64-bit capable. The key is that the Mac needs a 64-bit kernel instead of a 32-bit kernel choking on all that 64-bit processing. THATwill be the big difference (if all developers get on board with it handsomely).

But it's encouraging to have read that VSL among the front runners chomping at the bit for Snow Leopard and 64-bit.

Full 64-bit functionality indeed hinges not only on applications being 64-bit capable, but also the hardware and the OS. Apple's hardware has had certain 64-bit functionality for some time, but 10.4 and 10.5 haven't gone the distance in this regard, making it difficult (or impossible) for developers to write true 64-bit apps.

A couple of years ago, Apple decided that it would no longer support Carbon Frameworks which have been used on PPCs. This threw many developers for a loop as many developers had already worked on 64-bit Carbon Frameworks to no avail. These frameworks had to be rewritten with Cocoa Frameworks in mind in order to support 10.6.

What that means for developers is that all software has hit somewhat of a brick wall-- 64-bit processing within a 32-bit OS kernel. It's getting there, but Tiger and Leopard have been gradual steps to getting there.

Once Snow Leopard is released, we will see the transition accelerate. There WILL be some additional wait (however long or short) for DAWs to go all-Carbon and 64-bit capable. Then there are all of your favorite plugins and fx in addition to your favorite virtual instruments which will have to make the transition. Not all developers will be able to release their updates at the same time, but let's hope that the most important software we need will be released within a reasonable amount of time. It won't make sense to have Snow Leopard if half of your software (or PPC hardware) is not compatible. This is why, imho, OSX 10.6 will be a lot less expensive than other OSX updates/upgrades. Users will likely be hit with numerous upgrade fees, and this can be costly. Hopefully, some developers will be merciful by offering free updates or at least taking Apple's lead and keeping the prices low. Otherwise, there could be a lot of frustrated (and bankrupt) Apple users out there.

We may hear further news from developers during the summer trade shows, but I have a feeling that we will hear a lot more by Winter NAMM, 2010 (USA) and certainly by Musikmesse (EU) in March, 2010.

I probably won't "buy any green bananas"   until 10.6.1 is released just to give developers and Apple a chance to iron out the initial wrinkles. Otherwise, I could be out of business if there are too many things which just don't work.

This article might help explain things a bit better (although some of the information about release dates was based on confirmed information from late 2008)

From:

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/10/28/road_to_mac_os_x_snow_leopard_64_bit_to_the_kernel.html

When released to developers around spring and to end users a few months later, Snow Leopard will support using a 64-bit kernel on all Intel Macs with 64-bit CPU, such as the Core 2 Duo. 

A 64-bit kernel requires all of its extensions to also be 64-bit. Kernel extensions or KEXTs include drivers for audio hardware, graphics adapters, networking, certain printing components, and other devices on the logic board or attached as peripherals. Until Apple delivers 64-bit versions of the nearly 300 extensions it ships with Mac OS X (not all of which will need to be supported on 64-bit Macs; many are legacy), it is limiting official 64-bit kernel support to a subset of Macs in prerelease builds of the new operating system.

The 32-bit kernel of Mac OS X

Snow Leopard will deliver the first 64-bit kernel for Mac OS X. Earlier versions of the operating system, including today's Leopard, can run 64-bit software but do so using a 32-bit kernel. More accurately, whether running on 32 and 64-bit CPUs, Mac OS X loads the same kernel image and run it as a 32-bit process, although when run on 64-bit hardware, the 32-bit kernel switches into "long mode compatibility mode." 

Apple's current implementation allows the existing 32-bit kernel to run both 32-bit and 64-bit applications at once, as well as being able to handle 64-bit virtual memory allocations, giving 64-bit applications and background tasks the capacity to allocate memory spaces larger than 4GB when working with large data sets. In Tiger, 32-bit graphical apps could create a 64-bit process; under Leopard, Mac OS X can run full 64-bit graphical apps. 

Leopard's 32-bit kernel has been fitted with enhancements that handle copying between 32 and 64-bit user address spaces, and its syscall and trap handlers are also 64-bit code. This hybrid design enabled Apple to deliver a kernel that could run 64-bit apps without needing to immediately deliver 64-bit kernel drivers for it, nor to require third parties to all ship 64-bit versions of their drivers. 

As described in earlier coverage of Snow Leopard's 64-bit features, Mac OS X can also currently use various techniques to use more than 4GB of installed RAM, the limit imposed by 32-bit memory addressing, despite using a 32-bit kernel. Intel's hardware uses a method called PAE to enable certain Mac models to address as much as 32GB of installed RAM, despite Mac OS X's use of a 32-bit kernel.

Herr Herbert:

The answer is always somewhere in the middle---  between the extremes.

Hi Paul:

Thank you VERY much for this information. It is clear and is exactly what I needed to know! You've explained it in a way that clarifies the information on the other threads I've located and have read on the same topic.

I have read where others have spoken of looping, but that is a different matter entirely. I don't think I would use a solo loop even if one existed for the reasons you mentioned. I think, in my case, it wasn't clear what I was triggering at any given moment or how I was triggering it. With the uniqueness of the way the solo strings have been implemented, I now understand what *not* to do under certain circumstances-- and *why* not to those things.

I can't tell you what a revelation this is!

Thank you VERY much once again.

Hey-- I'm sure this has been asked before, but something is happening that defies reason. Any help would be appreciated.

I've got a very small project-- one instance of VSL-- writing cello parts to a stereo demo track. I'm using one solo cello patch at the moment with intentions of expanding my matrix later. The patch is  < VC_perf-legato >.

I tested the note duration. When played manually, G3 (where C4 is middle-C) sustains on a single bow for about 8 seconds at which time I can hear a bow change which sustains nicely for another 6 seconds. The sample lasts 14 seconds total. Great.

When that same note is played from my sequence it cuts off after only 4 seconds. Why is that?

I thought there may be some wayward note-off info causing the problem but I'm only playing single lines and find nothing unusual in my MIDI event list. It doesn't appear to be a matter of voice stealing. I've even experimented with shortening and lengthening the note before the G3. At the moment there is nothing after this particular note.

It seems to me that something is telling VSL to abort streaming at a point about 1/3 through its "potential" sustain capability. It doesn't happen all the time, but it happens enough that I can't seem to figure out how to avoid it.

Although I'm using Digital Performer 5.13 in 10.4.11 on a MacPro 3Ghz with 8GB RAM (overkill for one cello patch?) I've also seen this happen in Logic 8.02 in 10.4.11 and in 10.5.6 with buffers set as high as 512. I'm using VSL 2.0.3452.

There must be some other issue that is operator-related, but I should be able to play simple solo cello lines with  < VC_perf-legato > where all of the notes are less than half of this patch's 14-second sustain duration. I suppose I could keyswitch over to a non "perf" patch, but I lose the wonderful release switches which add much at this particular spot.

Thoughts?

Thanks.

You should know that it always depends on who's in contention!!

It has gotten to the point where I don't even tell people what sound libraries I'm using any more. I wait until they ask-- and then I still don't tell them especially if they've been unkind to me.

Indeed-- Congrats to the VSL team for doing what was thought to be impossible!

"and now my life has changed in oh, so many ways...."