I'm not a huge fan or running multiple VE2 standalones... I'd rather have everything in one, 64bit app. Which I believe is doable with the Windows version.

I understand your point regarding the cost / performance ratio, but if according to most benchmarks, the 3.2Ghz model is 7 to 11% faster than the 2.8Ghz model. If that difference allows me to load 52 instances of VI instead of 48 and thus makes my system complete, I say it's worth the money.

Jerome

Thanks Steve for your post.

Our goal is definitely to have a "two-computer" setup - one sequencer, and one slave hosting VI. We're currently running a Mac Mini farm, the idea is to replace all 8 of them with one crazy-fast computer.

Since VE 64bit is only for Windows (XP64 or Vista64), I guess that's going to be the best solution. Is a 3.2Ghz MacPro the fastest computer money can buy right now? (I don't care buying a Mac or PC if I'm going to run Windows on it anyway).

I don't really care for VE3's network capabilities, as we're using our network for lots of other things and we already own all the audio interfaces we'll need. Is there any memory or CPU management improvement in VE3? Or can this setup work as well in VE2? (VE2's current features are enough for our needs).

Thanks,
Jerome

Hey there,

We are thinking in trying the "one computer" route, so here's the deal.

We need to be able to load 52 "instruments" with an average of 7 articulations for each. (Of course the idea is not only being able to load all the articulations, but also that it run fines when it plays back.)

What does the VSL team recommend to do this? Can it work with VE2 or do we need to wait for VE3?

Can is simply be done?

Thanks,
Jerome

Anything else new from the previous version?

Thanks,

J.

It seems to me that this is related to the idea that the more RAM you have, the better shape you're in... meaning that the problem would happen less if there was much more "available physical memory".

So, potentially, more problem will happen if you have 2GB of memory and use 1.6GB for samples, than if you have 4GB and only use half of it...


J.

Thanks for the informative answer, cm.

Does this mean that this problem simply can't be solved at this time?

What about the fact that - to my knowledge - this doesn't happen on *all* Mac configurations?

Thanks!
J.

Hey there!

I know this is an old issue, but I was wondering if anyone ever figured out how *not* to have any sample dropouts/clicks when playing a VI sample for the first time.

I installed Vienna Ensemble and hoped it would fix the issue but it still doesn't. Right after loading the software and playing a sample, it drops out or clicks. I have to basically play a full scale up and down to make sure it will not happen again. Then it plays fine (at least for many hours).

This subject was discussed at length last June/July I believe. I was just wondering if a fix had been found since then.

Thanks!

Jerome

Read my last post again - I was not talking about the non-release of VE 64-bit on the same day than the Windows version. I was talking about the 32-bit Mac version which was *not* released on the same day than the Windows 32-bit version, and when it did, it was as a *beta*.

J.

Well, just regarding VE, I would say there were (and still are) some hard facts: VE Mac wasn't available the same day as the Windows version; when it came out it was a beta; and the 64-bit version is not available yet and there are no precise release date at this point ("coming soon" doesn't mean anything to me as a client and user, it is completely relative.)

Then, you can basically read from one of the main developer that the Mac sucks as a development platform, that Apple sucks and that the Mac users are basically morons (I mean, come on, we're all buying computers which are freakingly expensive, have a shorter life expectancy than Windows PCs, and are harder to develop for! What is wrong with us!?).

Sorry if I believe my reaction was at least half-justified.

J.

ps.Oh, and their forum doesn't work properly under Safari ;)

As Miklos said earlier, if you were first developing for Mac and then for Windows, these figures might very well be reversed... So criticizing the Mac platform because it takes too much time to make sure your Windows app work doesn't make much sense to me either...

Moreover you wouldn't be developing for OS X if you were losing money doing it; so all of those extra hours are surely worth it business-wise. Which is why I don't understand either why the complaining about the Mac platform (see cm's earlier post). But maybe this is simply a bad interpretation on my part.


J.

Ah! Back in business :)

Well, to re-center that discussion on topic - should we basically understand that you guys have no idea as to when a 64-bit version will come around? Like, can you at least say "in six month", or "in two years" or "when hell will freeze over"? :D

The thing I don't understand is the fact you announced the 64-bit Leopard version of VE would come out a few weeks after Leopard's release - although at that time the "no-64bit-Carbon" issue had been known for 3 months already...?

J.


ps. regarding the forum - see what I meant when I said "Windows first, Mac second"? :D

There's no registered products for *Jerome*... All the registered products I am using are at my boss' studio. Not sure which message board account I should use then?

I personally think MOTU's Windows drivers are so-so. Compared to their Mac drivers anyway.

But MOTU is far from being perfect either :) And I don't really want to compare VSL and MOTU since they don't do exactly the same kind of business (although maybe VSL will come out with a MIR hardware box one day).

J.


ps. I also really don't like that new forum where I have to enter html code to get correct formatting... am I doing something wrong here?

Stephen--
Hmm, my name is Jerome, for some reason now the board shows the login name when you don't check "Show Full Names" in your profile... rather annoying because I wouldn't like my boss to think I'm speaking on his behalf (which I am *not*!)

But anyway- I should have been clearer - In the debate regarding native vs. cross-platform, I was specifically talking about stand-alone apps. As a plug-in, I think VE (and VI for that matter) are perfectly fine. The release of plug-ins both as Audio Units and VST is a good example of cross-platform apps that don't make me specifically realize they've been developed on another system (Except then the scroll wheel doesn't work on Mac :) )

Stand-alone apps are usually another story though.

JEROME. ;)

I wouldn't mind... :)

In all seriousness, that's the whole problem, and VSL is definitely not alone in that respect.

Adobe, Sibelius, the Mozilla Foundation, Native Instruments, Propellerhead.... there are countless companies who develop both for Windows and OS X, and the end result is that the Mac versions tend to be not as good as the Windows version. These products simply don't "feel" native. The interface doesn't follow OS X guidelines (Firefox), things are not working the way they should (I'm thinking about mouse scrolling in Sibelius for example), the file browser is proprietary (Reason), etc, etc. I don't know any cross-platform app which really "feel" native on Mac - but it (of course) always does on Windows.

This is why, whenever I can, I favor a native app, developed primarily for OS X. I've found that by doing that I have far less problems and it's much more consistent in terms of interface and/or functionality. It makes my life easier, and I actually enjoy my computing experience more.

Yes, I wish that some companies would be doing the same as MOTU and focusing on only one platform. They would then be able to use the advantages of *that* platform. The problem is that most sample companies have now become software companies as well and as a result have to spend huge resources into software development; and considering their user base it makes complete business sense to develop cross-platform apps (and it makes complete business sense to spend as less time as possible to make that cross-platform app work in two environments.) But the fact that I understand that cross-platform is a necessity doesn't make the product more attractive to me from a Mac-user standpoint.

J.

Oh - by the way - I know this is a bit of a heated discussion but I just wanted to add that I do appreciate the fact that we can at least *talk* with VSL through this board.
)
) Other companies can't claim to be that open.


J.

Miklos-


I agree with most of what you said. I don't blame VSL for using Carbon. I blame VSL for being (overall) Windows-centered and (too often) blaming Apple when something's not working. Even though they did develop a Mac version, I hate reading stuff (basically) like, "we do care much more about Apple than we would like to have to.". To me this means, "we do it but it's really because we have to and I (secretly) wish we weren't."

If you don't want to develop for Mac, don't. If you want to and you're committed to it, then any amount of time is not a problem. I know when I was a webdesigner I would put the extra work to make sure my websites worked perfectly on Safari and Firefox; whatever the amount of time needed I simply wouldn't deliver a single website that didn't work on IE, Firefox *and* Safari (and at the time considering my layouts it was a challenge in itself, only to benefit a very little amount of people).


J.

I don't see MOTU going out of business because they only develop DP for the Mac.



Hmmm... actually that was only an increase in "market share" for Box sales (not OEM); so it's not really surprising since Leopard juste came out! That doesn't mean Windows sold less copies, just that there has been a lot of Leopard sold... which means that in the following months everything will go back to "normal" (ie. 80% windows, 10% Leopard). Don't hold your breath ;)

The thing is, VSL develop cross-platform products so that work for Windows - and then! they make sure it works for Mac. If possible. Meaning, if Apple didn't "screw up" somewhere. If they did, well then, too bad, no 64-bit support for you guys until... well... until... hmmm... who knows?

Why don't they do the contrary? Develop for Mac first. And screw Windows. MOTU does that and they're doing a great job at it :)

It's not only about 64-bit (although that topic started on that). Should I remind you that VE for Mac didn't come out *at the same time* than the Windows version came out? Oh, sure - it did only a few days later - but when it actually came out it was a *beta*! Weirdly, it's never the other way around (Mac first and then three days later a Windows beta). But they're probably going to tell us it's Apple's fault if the program was buggy... :)

Anyway, I don't believe Apple is going to make using 64-bit Carbon any easier. That's the Apple way - they force you to move ahead. It's not always good, but overall it's been working pretty well in my opinion (I don't regret throwing out my floppy disks 4 years ago.)


J.

I agree we've moved to the (unnecessary) debate PC vs. Mac.

I haven't been into Windows-bashing in about 10 years and I'm not about to do so. I usually don't reply to Mac-bashing either but on a forum like this it seemed appropriate : I don't see what value there is from someone at VSL to give subjective arguments against the Mac platform, and, by extension, Mac owners. Especially knowing Mac owners probably represent a good sum of VSL clients!

On a more general note, when I visit this board, I do not expect to hear from VSL "it's Apple's fault if our product doesn't work". You have chosen to develop an app on a platform, then bear with its advantages and disadvantages. Don't put the fault on someone else's shoulder. Others companies don't and quickly work it out (MOTU and Digidesign are a good example of this).

If you can't bear the Mac platform, because Apple is stupid (and it sometimes *really* is, I am the first to admit it), then don't develop for the Mac. It, to me, is a little hypocritical to try to get Mac users to buy your software when you really seem to hate Apple and the Mac platform. That's all I'm saying. Heck, AFAIK most of VSL guys don't use them... and you don't even have the top-of-the-line computer (8-core Mac Pro with 16GB) to test your software on. Knowing that Apple basically comes out with a new, top-of-the-line computer every year or so, I find this disturbing. Come on, it's not like I it would be a huge spending. Right now, your users have to make the test for you.

Listen - I'm not asking VSL to get a Leopard version as soon as the new OS is available. I frankly couldn't care less... All I wanted to know was what was the timeframe for a 64-bit version of VE. Other plug-ins manufacturers are also going 64-bit (EastWest being one of them) and having an idea into where you guys were going with that is interesting to plan new purchases. Your answer was - basically - we don't know because it depends on another company's software, which - in turns - blame Apple for "lying" about Carbon. Well, everybody's happy, it's Apple fault! woohoo!
Makes my day... :)


J.

I meant Cakewalk.

Thanks! I'll update then... :)

This is completely ridiculous.

So, according to you, a computer is unusable if:
1/ it's a little above the specs
2/ it's "not fun"
3/ it's "sosolala usable"
4/ it "does not make sense to upgrade ram"
5/ "nobody likes it"
6/ "it's only usable for light arrangements"
7/ a PCI-e soundcard exists (?!?)

Half of those arguments seems debatable, and the other half are completely subjective (and another one is *not* an argument).

Also interesting that when you mention PCs, you talk about "all PCs from 2002" even though your Mac list goes back to 2000. Talk about subjectivity.

Saying that a Mac from 2002 does not run the tasks it was originally assigned to is ridiculous. There are still recording studios running ProTools under OS 9. AFAIK, nobody forces you to upgrade to Leopard (try installing Vista on a PC from 2002 without upgrading it, you'll have fun).

Finally, considering "macs to be not future proof and a short-term investment" is going against most reviews and articles out there who talk about and demonstrate (with objective arguments) that the life expectancy of a Mac is on average far greater than the life expectancy of a PC. And I won't even mention the fact that Macs have a much higher resale value than their PC equivalent.

I'd love if your post was simply a troll (as it certainly could be) but unfortunately it doesn't seem so. I find it amazing that this kind of absolutely ludicrous anti-Mac arguments could come from a company that IS doing business with Mac owners.

Why doesn't VSL only develop for Windows, like Steinberg, Tascam or Sony do? Sometimes that's really beyond me. They too develop great products and plenty of people buy them. Doesn't sound like a risky way to do business to me...

Anyway, I guess I (we) can thank you for your honesty. I always like to learn when my assumptions turn out to be true.


Jerome

"A significant part of them are no longer useable (most G4s, the aluminium powerbooks, the earlier imacs, actually the earlier G5s and the first macboook pro)"

Not sure what that's supposed to mean. Please explain?

Thanks,

Jerome

The thing is - we're still using 5.0.4.0 here... it's working okay except that it is slow to load and I remember reading that there was way to improve that. So I'm wondering if there are any advantage from updating to the latest version.

Do new versions of Syncrosoft help reduce loading times?

Thanks,
Jerome