You can't go wrong with the Cube and at its current price it is an amazing value (VSL bundle savings are quite substantial). The combination of Orchestral, Chamber and Solo Strings gives you a lot of freedom to shape the sound.

The Dimension libraries are very nice as well and provide lots of option for divisi. But a full Dimension orchestra is more expensive, not always as deeply sampled as the Cube (in particular the brass), the size of the string section is limited (8 vs. 14 violins), and generally you will need more resources (about a factor 2-4 more RAM, CPU, ...).

The VI pro player is free now, but I would recommend to get at least a MIRx venue since this strongly improves the sound.

VI pro does not run native on M1 macs, yet, so you have to run Cubase in Rosetta mode. To do so just open the file info of Cubase (in the Finder) and check the corresponding box.

What is the difference in velocity layers between the full Synchron libraries and the Prime Edition? I already didn't like that they are not listed anymore in the manuals of the newer Synchron packages, but now that the Prime Edition apparently offers reduced versions it is impossible to make an informed purchase decision without this crucial info.

Dear VSL team, thank you so much for this beautiful sample set! This is so much more than just a demo for the full Imperial library. I am not a pianist, but have the (old) Vienna Imperial and (even though it is probably in there somewhere 😉) I never managed to get such a soft, rich sound out of it. What a source of inspiration 😊!

I am not sure if this post is about the discontinued old Bösendorfer or the Vienna Imperial, but I would suggest exactly the same for the latter. Instead of porting the ancient dedicated piano player (which aside from a simpler UI does not have any advantage), now that VI pro is free anyway, it would be so much better if the VSL team would simply release VI pro presets for the Vienna Imperial. The Imperial is in principle a great sample set, but since the ancient piano player (which as far as I understand was released before MIR was even fully available) does not support MIRx (but only cut-down versions of selected venues), it never sounds right in a mix with other VI/Synchron instruments and therefore I hardly use it (and getting MIR pro merely to add an old piano does no make much sense). It should be so much easier to include it in the new VST3 VI pro, than to port this dated piece of software for a piano that in its current form probably not many people use anyway.

Hello Mike,

Are you using Studio One on an Apple-silicon Mac? I had the same problem and it was due to the fact that this feature unfortunately only works with VST3 and the VST3 Synchron Player does not run natively on the new Macs. In this case you can get it to work if you run Studio One in the Rosetta emulation mode (ckecking the corresponding box in the Studio One file information window), but this slows down everything and is therefore (at least for me) not really a viable option.

Hope this helps

Kai

Yes I'm also still on Big Sur (11.5.1) and use the most recent VI pro version (2.5.18664).

I hope the VSL team will get back to you soon to solve this issue.

I am sorry to hear that you are having such trouble.

Unfortunately, I am not sure what exactly the problem in your case is. All I can confirm is that VI pro runs fine on a 2020 M1 Macbook Air in Logic 10.7.2 in my case.

I would guess the VSL team can give you some advice what else you could try to figure out the problem and eventually make it work (e.g. preferences files could be damaged, ...).

Here some VST history (copied from Wikipedia):

VST 3.0 came out in 2008. Changes included:

• Audio Inputs for VST Instruments
• Multiple MIDI inputs/outputs
• Optional SKI (Steinberg Kernel Interface) integration

VST 3.5 came out in February 2011. Changes included note expression, which provides extensive articulation information in individual note events in a polyphonic arrangement. According to Steinberg, this supports performance flexibility and a more natural playing feel. ^[9]

In October 2011, Celemony Software and PreSonus released Audio Random Access (ARA), an extension for audio plug-in interfaces, such as VST, allowing greater integration between audio plug-ins and DAW software.^[10]

In September, 2013, Steinberg discontinued maintenance of the VST 2 SDK. In December, Steinberg stopped distributing the SDK.^[11] The higher versions are continued.

I fully agree, there should be a VST3 version of VI pro soon. Always using it in VE pro is not a viable option at all. It is so much simpler to do everything in the DAW or Notation Software, and what's more there are so many useful features of these Applications one would completely loose when instantiating VI pro directly would not be possible anymore.

Already now VI pro does NOT work at all anymore in the new Dorico 4 on Apple-sliicon Macs unless one runs it under Rosetta ... which is painfully slow. This is really a pity taking into account that VST3 is around for such a long time (like many other users, I purchased all of my many VI products long after that point).

Originally Posted by: gabriel81

Originally Posted by: Kai

ok, maybe in this case the 5.5.0 update broke something there.

I updated now, it works great :)

Hello Gabriel,

thanks for the feedback! Yes 5.5 works fine 😊.

As John pointed out this was a Mac problem. This feature requires VST3 which is not natively supported so far on recent Macs. I can run S1 in emulation mode to use VST3 and there everything works.

Yes, by far 😊. Aside from the fact that the Expression Map editor and the implementation of score symbols is a nightmare in Cubase, Dorico has several big advantages:

- in Cubase one can assign at most four different specifiers (like staccato, ...), simultaneously to get a particular playing technique, while in Dorico there is no restriction. I.e. one can e.g. specify no vibrato, legato, on the G string, played by four players and with an accent 😊.

- In Cubase these even have to be in a particular order for things to work, while in Dorico there are no restrictions 

- and finally Dorico Expression Maps offer criteria for an automatic playback of a score. Unfortunately, so far only the note length is supported, but nonetheless this way long or various short notes can automatically be played with the appropriate playing technique, and this works really well. As soon as Dorico offers more such criteria the playback will be mostly automatic and one will only have to tweak here and there.

update: 

On Rosetta using VST3 (not VST2) it indeed works. It would be useful if VSL would add this info somewhere in the small print on the S1 page, since I am sure I am not the only one on an Apple-silicon Mac and I did not even know before how to (deliberately) run an App in Rosetta 😊 (which is surely also much slower).

Hello John,

thanks so much for your very helpful feedback, this explains it! I am ion a M1 Mac and in the Plug-In Manager S1 only shows the AU version. It is a pity that so many useful features don't work anymore with VST3. Let's hope for a native AU version that works then.

All the best

Kai

Hello Gabriel,

ok, maybe in this case the 5.5.0 update broke something there.

Thanks for the confirmation regarding the score. Good to hear that the combination of Studio One and Notion works well. I am hoping to finally be able to use a single Music Application for everything (so far I am going back and forth between Logic and Dorico ... which is rather inconvenient)., but in this case Studio One won't be the solution either.

Maybe the new Dorico 4 with its enhanced Midi-editing features, will do the trick (as far as there are no audio files involved in the project), because its notation and score playback features are unmatched.

Thanks again and all the best

Kai

Hello Gabriel,

thanks for your quick feedback! That's really strange then, and I don't understand what is going on. Which Studio One version and system are you using?

Since you use Studio One, I have another question: I have been playing with the Sound Variations editor a bit myself (using VI libraries). This works fine, but it seems as far as score symbols are concerned, it is not possible to trigger Sound Variations based on several score symbols (e.g. staccato and con sordino symbols to obtain the con sordino staccato playing technique). Is this correct?

In Cubase Expression Maps there is no such restriction. Unfortunately, Cubase Expression Maps are otherwise pretty clumsy and limited compared to what e.g. Dorico offers by now.

Thanks and best regards

Kai

Hello,

to those who already use the VSL in Studio One: does the Synchron Player integration indeed work automatically for you without installing anything or any prior setup, as described in the videos? I have tried it with both Synchron Strings 1 and pro and the Synchron player works otherwise fine in Studio One (sequences are played back normally), but there are no Sound Variations listed anywhere (the Sound Variations editor remains empty when I load a preset in the Synchron Player, the Sound Variation menu item does not appear in the context menu when control-clicking on a note, ...). I tried this with the most recent version 5.5. 

Is there anything I am missing?

Thanks for any help!

Dewdman, I fully agree with what you wrote. In particular the implementation of "extended Midi functionality" like Articulation IDs and their relation to ordinary Midi data is just weird and completely incomprehensible in Logic. Even after nearly a decade it does not work at all to simply record Articulation IDs from a Midi keyboard the way they had intended it using Articulation Sets. There are commercial tools that do nothing else than to fix the mess that Apple left and somehow make this work. It took me years to accidentally figure out how to get this to work, and it was only possible with some odd transformations in the environment, so that all of a sudden Logic would recognize Midi events it would otherwise just filter out.

Dewdman, that's an interesting observation with the 8bit limitation. As you write, underneath the fancy surface everything in Logic is still built on the old environment code (even in the most recent version). They try to hide it as much as possible, but they simply need it. I guess this is (unfortunately) the only reason why the environment and all its nice Midi capabilities still exist. But it is indeed basically a miracle that all this still works (to some extent), taking into account what changes the architecture went through since the code was created (PPC, Intel, Apple silicon). The old artwork of some faders from the 90s alone is just incredible in a fancy Apple product in the 2020s . Anyway I really hope they give it a major overhaul at some point instead of removing the environment completely.

Macker, this sounds even worse than what I had feared. I know exactly how you feel, after having spent a lot of time to create a fancy environment that works and that your current workflow depends on, just to have to abandon it because of something like this. However, if the bug is so obvious, this should make it easier to communicate it in a bug report. The Apple team is incredibly slow (and one never gets any feedback), but hopefully they will eventually fix it this way.

Originally Posted by: Macker

In Big Sur, not only does Logic 10.7.1 not work on half the ports when used with my VEPro AU3 Template, but it also visibly corrupts my previously tested and working constructions in the Environment in Logic projects built with 10.4.8. Moreover, this Environment corruption occurs even after a previously tested and working Logic 10.4.8 project file has been opened in Logic 10.7.1 but never saved in 10.7.1, then subsequently opened in Logic 10.4.8. Even worse, if I'm not badly mistaken, the corruption also happens in 10.4.8 projects opened specifically in 10.4.8 but never having been opened in 10.7.1 - while 10.7.1 is merely there lurking in the Applications folder.

Hence I'm now treating Logic 10.7.1 as if it's malware.

Furthermore, if you use a VEPro AU2 multiport Logic template, I strongly suggest you treat it as potentially at risk from Logic 10.7.1.

I've done some radical "disinfecting" by deleting all versions of the Logic app later than 10.4.8 from my Big Sur boot volume, and by using Time Machine to restore all my Logic projects from backups done before I updated Logic 10.4.8 and created my Big Sur boot volume. And that means I've effectively lost many, many hours of work since mid-July on developing older projects and creating new ones.

I'll spare you my current thoughts and feelings about the 'developers' working on Logic at Apple Park in Cupertino.

This sounds just horrible, sorry to hear you are having such trouble.. Can you elaborate a bit what exactly got corrupted in the environment and does not work anymore. I am using the environment extensively and fortunately did not experience problems in 10.7.1./Big Sur so far. However, I had plenty of similar problems with previous versions of Logic where (for years) things just would not work anymore after an update.

It unfortunately seems the environment is some legacy part of their code that hasn't really been maintained for far more than a decade and that they just carry around. Yet, every once in a while they break parts of it when they port it to a new framework, since no-one really understands anymore how the code works in detail.

Originally Posted by: Seventh Sam

Originally Posted by: Kai

I had implemented this in Logic via some Midi pre-processing in the past and it worked just fine (either with aftertouch or the pitchbend wheel). It would be great if such a mode would be implemented in the VSL players in the future.

That sounds...amazing!  If I had a controller capable of aftertouch, I'd try it out right away.  The pitchbend wheel, on the other hand... 

If you don't mind, could you elaborate on the pre-processing you did?  I don't use Logic, but I'm betting there's a way to replicate it somehow...

In the past I did this in Logic's Environment, but any software that allows real time Midi processing should be able to do this. I just created a corresponding script for Logic's Scripter Midi Plug-In (which is based on Java script).

This is what it does:

- The velocity of every incoming note-on event first has to be stored in some variable vel, Then the note-on event has to be duplicated and the first instance has to be converted to a velocity x-fade controller event with value vel

- When controlling velocity x-fade with channel pressure (aftertouch) only an increase starting from the initial value is possible. For this the channel pressure event with value cp has to be transformed into a velocity x-fade controller event with value vel+cp/127*(127-vel)

- Alternatively when controlling velocity x-fade with the pitchbend wheel any relative change (increase or decrease) is possible. The pitchbend event with value pb (in the interval -8192<pb<8192) has to be transformed into a velocity x-fade controller event with a value depending on the sign (i.e. pitchbend up/down):

if pb>=0 then vel+pb/8192*(128-vel)

if pb<0 then vel+pb/8192*vel

Hi Sam, 

you are right. Aftertouch does not work for velocity x-fade directly, since velocity x-fade completely replaces velocity by a controller, and the aftertouch controller always start at zero when a note is played.

However, there would in principle be a way to make this work, if there would be a "hybrid velocity x-fade" mode in VSL players, where velocity still determines the initial value of the velocity x-fade controller and the physical controller then allows the player to control subsequent relative dynamic changes with it. This has the advantage that one can still standardly play with velocity, which should be much more natural for piano players (in particular for short notes). One would then only have to use the physical velocity x-fade controller when one actually wants to perform realtime dynamic changes (e.g. for more realistic playback of long notes).

I had implemented this in Logic via some Midi pre-processing in the past and it worked just fine (either with aftertouch or the pitchbend wheel). It would be great if such a mode would be implemented in the VSL players in the future.

Hello Macker, 

thanks so much for the detailed explanation!

This all looks very promising. After being hesitant to upgrade for some time (because certain hard- and software unfortunately does not work anymore afterwards), I am likewise moving to Big Sur and will give it a try ...

Hello Macker, 

thanks for pointing out this new feature in Logic! This sounds very interesting and I agree that this could indeed be very beneficial for orchestral composition if it is implemented the right way. I was moving towards Dorico but this feature could definitely make me come back to Logic (didn't upgrade to 10.5 so far). For me the biggest advantage of this would not just be the realtime triggering of patterns but the non-linearity you mention, which would be great for arranging and experimenting. As you point out, historically basically all orchestral music is built from small themes that are varied, repeated, played by different instruments, ... to create a larger arrangement out of them - in contrast to the "tape machine" paradigm Logic had so far.

As far as I understand this should imply that there is a separate repository/resource window for sequences that do not have to be assigned the Arrange window so far? This is something I have always been missing in Logic. To get such a pattern based working style one had to have dummy tracks in the arrange that stored the sequences that one would then arrange ...

To make this really useful for orchestral music would ideally require the following:

- the individual musical building blocks should have the capability to include tempo information instead of a rigid time frame used in the context of electronic music - and if one uses sequences with different timing information one should be able to decide which one is used

- it should be easily possible to transpose these patterns (in particular in octaves to move them between instruments with different ranges)

- the possibility to combine sequences on different tracks (e.g. the sequences of an entire string section) into a combined object that one can move around or trigger (while still having the freedom to edit the individual components)

Since you already checked it out, can it do (some of) this?

Oh, I see. Yes, this would be convenient (if there are no adverse latency or performance effects) . But it would be great if this could be implemented in a similar way to the current Auto-Voicing, so that it is flexible enough to still be able to control how many players are used, instead of a fully automatic algorithm that always keeps all players busy.

However, the present Auto Voicing in VI pro is already the big improvement, compared to e.g. the Synchron Player, since it allows the user to keep the entire section on a single track and conveniently realize arbitrary divisi. For me it is not such a big deal to send a single additional control event at the beginning of a divisi passage, that selects how many players are used per note, when otherwise everything is handled completely automatically.