Hello Macker, 

thanks so much for the detailed explanation!

This all looks very promising. After being hesitant to upgrade for some time (because certain hard- and software unfortunately does not work anymore afterwards), I am likewise moving to Big Sur and will give it a try ...

Hello Macker, 

thanks for pointing out this new feature in Logic! This sounds very interesting and I agree that this could indeed be very beneficial for orchestral composition if it is implemented the right way. I was moving towards Dorico but this feature could definitely make me come back to Logic (didn't upgrade to 10.5 so far). For me the biggest advantage of this would not just be the realtime triggering of patterns but the non-linearity you mention, which would be great for arranging and experimenting. As you point out, historically basically all orchestral music is built from small themes that are varied, repeated, played by different instruments, ... to create a larger arrangement out of them - in contrast to the "tape machine" paradigm Logic had so far.

As far as I understand this should imply that there is a separate repository/resource window for sequences that do not have to be assigned the Arrange window so far? This is something I have always been missing in Logic. To get such a pattern based working style one had to have dummy tracks in the arrange that stored the sequences that one would then arrange ...

To make this really useful for orchestral music would ideally require the following:

- the individual musical building blocks should have the capability to include tempo information instead of a rigid time frame used in the context of electronic music - and if one uses sequences with different timing information one should be able to decide which one is used

- it should be easily possible to transpose these patterns (in particular in octaves to move them between instruments with different ranges)

- the possibility to combine sequences on different tracks (e.g. the sequences of an entire string section) into a combined object that one can move around or trigger (while still having the freedom to edit the individual components)

Since you already checked it out, can it do (some of) this?

Oh, I see. Yes, this would be convenient (if there are no adverse latency or performance effects) . But it would be great if this could be implemented in a similar way to the current Auto-Voicing, so that it is flexible enough to still be able to control how many players are used, instead of a fully automatic algorithm that always keeps all players busy.

However, the present Auto Voicing in VI pro is already the big improvement, compared to e.g. the Synchron Player, since it allows the user to keep the entire section on a single track and conveniently realize arbitrary divisi. For me it is not such a big deal to send a single additional control event at the beginning of a divisi passage, that selects how many players are used per note, when otherwise everything is handled completely automatically.

Yes, we need more Dimension Strings libraries. As far as I am concerned volume IV should complete the range of sul ponticello articulations as well as espressivo patches and legato harmonics, which are not available, yet in any of the string libraries. But, it is not so important in which order the different playing techniques are released as long as they continue to extend these libraries.

Pixelpoet, what do you mean by "real auto divisi"? Selecting how many players shall play a note and VI pro automatically distributing all voices among the different players, works already perfectly in VI pro with the Dimension libraries. Yet, I second all your other suggestions.

Originally Posted by: William

... despite not having as many "dimensions" or layers of menu-driven pre-programmed automation, you can do anything with VI musically speaking. You have total control over ever possible MIDI parameter. And you can create your own setup which is very easy to use. That is ideal.

Actually VI pro does offer the "dimensions" if programmed appropriately ("3D-control"):

https://www.articulate-preset.com

VI libraries include the required broad variety of sampled versions, while VI pro is at the same time flexible enough to take all of them into account and efficient enough to indeed simultaneously control various musical parameters, like section size, vibrato, attack, legato, muting, bowing position, ... .

As you write, a big advantage of VI pro is its flexibility, which allows users to work in any way they like: they can use a full-featured preset, or start with an empty VI pro instance and add individual matrices (with all the continuous control already set up) as needed, and where necessary even build their own matrices from scratch out of individual patches while working on a project.

Hi William,

I agree with what you wrote about VI pro 😊. It has lots of advantages for Silent Stage libraries (just like the Synchron Player has for Synchron libraries). I likewise clearly prefer the former and that's why I basically don't use Synchron (although I have some libraries). 

But I don't see how you got the idea that VI is going to be "discarded". Just two months ago they released a Synchron Stage MIRx plug-in, which only runs in VI (pro) and makes VI libraries finally fully compatible with the Synchron line, in the sense that you can have all VSL instruments conveniently in the same venue. By far most of the present VSL instruments are VI-only and the release of the Synchron venue suggests to me that they do not plan to "synchronize" everything (why would they, given the many advantages the VI player has for these libraries).

Last year there was a major VI pro update (retina support) and just a few month ago there was new sample content released for the VI player (Dimension Ponticellos). So I am confident that they know what a great software they have with VI pro. 

That they market the Synchron Player to new users, is as far as I understand since they get a self-contained package this way (without purchasing VI pro and MIRx venues in addition), that is a bit simpler to use/get accustomed to (but at the same time, as you write, also more restricted).

So I agree with LAJ: relax 😊.

Cheers

Kai

this is very helpful - thanks so much Paul!

After playing these sounds for some time, I have to say that the samples are simply gorgeous. In the other libraries the ponticello is sometimes a bit on the harsh side, but the Dimension ponticello is smooth and silky (in particular the slow tremolo, which is among my favorite sounds in the entire VSL). 

Only the present programming does not yet entirely match the high quality of the samples. While things are fine when velocity X-fade is turned on, once turned off there are dramatic volume steps (~15dB) between the different velocity layers in several patches - even for staccato where I usually wouldn't use velocity X-fade. I am sure this can easily be fixed in an update to make these patches as playable as these samples deserve.

Thanks again for this nice surprise !

Thanks so much for the very nice ponticello freebie, VSL team ! It is great to see that the Dimension Series is further extended and these were the most missed articulations. I hope there will nevertheless still be a complete sul ponticello package in the future including the other articulations (legato, portamento, repetitions, ...) included in DS1-3. I am sure many users would pay for this.

Dietz, you are awesome  - thanks so much!

I was wondering as well how this works when I got the email, and find this "solution" likewise puzzling and inconvenient. It should not be too hard to write a little script that checks how long the current plan is still valid and determines the expiration date of the new plan based on that. In case VSL does not want people to purchase coverage for the next 20 years in advance, that script could likewise ensure this  ...

Originally Posted by: Paul

Hi David, 

"Synchron Strings Pro" because it really is more than just a second part for Synchron Strings I. 

Synchron Strings Pro is a fresh approach and also contains some articulations from Synchron Strings I, which makes it an independent product AND and upgrade/crossgrade from Synchron Strings I at the same time. 

You are correct about CC2, but that should be done with a click. Hope that's OK for you, we're trying to keep the preset list as lean as possible!

Best,
Paul

Hi Paul, 

congratulations on this release. This looks and sounds very promising!

I can understand that you packaged it this way to give new users a self-contained library without the problems of SYS I.

However, for owners of SYS I who already have a 300GB block on their disk (iwithout using it so far) it would be great if you could release an improved installer for SYS I, that would only install that content (e.g. additional velocity layers) that is not in SYS pro - or even better let the user choose which content of SYS I should be installed. This is particularly important since some of the best content of SYS I (9 velocity layer shorts or the lyrical vibrato that was previously released to improve it) is apparently not part of the "pro" package.. 

Is this planned?

Cheers

Kai

Oh I see, thanks so much for clarifying this, Bill! Now I get your previous remark - I had no idea that this is such a minefield.

Sounds like Steinberg re-invented the wheel, but for some reason people still prefer the old-fashioned, round version  ...

Hello Dewdman, 

thanks for this comprehensive explanation, really appreciated.

I had no idea that this is such a tricky issue and even controllers are no alternative.

I have a few more questions: 

I was searching the forum, and if I understand a previous thread correctly so far both VI pro and the Synchron Player are VST2 only. Is this still correct (somehow VI pro lists VST3 support on the VSL homepage)? So if Steinberg's statement is correct, once these are ported to VST3 there might be a way for VSL to implement "program change messages" Steinberg's new way, so that one can still e.g. send these Midi messages to Cubase and they will then somehow be transferred to VI pro or the Synchron Player as VST3 proprietary non-Midi events?

Oops, Dietz you are right as always . It just somehow feels like it has been there forever.

I vaguely remembered this: "The specification originates in a paper published by Dave Smith and Chet Wood then of Sequential Circuits at the October 1981 Audio Engineering Society conference", but surely it took time for it to reach the market.

Dewdman, thanks for the info! This sounds like they want to establish an improved program change standard within VST3. Yet, it would surely be handy if it would be downward compatible.

Thanks so much for the info, Dietz! I wasn't aware fo this. Funny decision by Steinberg, taking into account that any cheap keyboard/software managed to implement standard Midi functions for 40 years and there is lot of hardware (master keyboards, ...) out there that sends program change messages.

Sam, thanks for pointing me to this. This looks awesome! But my main DAW is Logic.

Hi Bill,

I am on Mac OS, so I don't know much about VST. But why would a newer audio plug-in standard not provide a full Midi implementation anymore?

Hi Macker,

thanks for the comprehensive explanation. That's a pity that there is indeed no workaround, yet.

In principle the dimensions of the Synchron Player seem quite powerful for realtime control, but I likewise don't see the advantage of this "solution" to send two events instead of a single (program change) event to select articulations. In particular since the number of articulations in present Synchron libraries is smaller than in the old VI libraries, so that 128 program change messages would be more than enough.

I did not even realize the problem with unassigned program change messages you mention. This sounds like a bug that they should be able to fix without too much effort. However, the fancy auto-rescaling they implemented in the Synchron Player seems to be intentionally designed for not more than 20 vertical slots, and therefore I don't expect them to introduce a scrollable list as in VI pro.

This would leave the second potential solution. I am not sure if I made myself clear, but the idea is that the same Midi message switches several dimensions simultaneously. E.g. in case of program change events the first ("bank") dimension would switch depending on whether the program change message is in a certain range of values (e.g. 0-9 -> slot 1, 10-19 -> slot 2, ...) and the second dimension depending on the exact program change number. 

For this it would merely be necessary to implement the selection of slots depending on ranges of Midi events (notes, controllers, program change messages, ... ) of a specifiable length. This would be very flexible, and, as an extreme example, with 128 values one could switch up to 7 dimensions (with 2 slots each) simultaneously - or anything in between. In case of key switch notes, choosing the ranges to have length 12, one dimension could then likewise be switched by the octave of the note and the second one by the particular key (in case someone wants to dedicate an entire keyboard to key-switching).

This does not sound too hard to implement and I hope this will be done in the future.

To not get unwanted key-switch notes in the score, ... I am trying to use Program Change messages to switch articulations in the Synchron Player. I can in principle see two ways to achieve this, but none of them really works:

- In VI pro one can have 128 matrices and can control each with a dedicated program change message. In principle this seems to work as well in Synchron, but the vertical list of slots is not scrollable and so the individual slots just shrink and this simply does not work at all as soon as there are 20+ vertical slots, since they become too thin, look horrible and one cannot properly access them anymore.

- The Synchron Player also offers the option to select slots with program change messages starting from a certain number. So in principle one could arrange the articulations in two dimensions, where the first dimension divides them up into "banks" of 10 articulations each that are stored in the slots of the second dimension. These can indeed be accessed by program change messages (e.g. articulations 10-19 by the corresponding program change messages), but this only works within a given "bank". I.e. if the first bank (1. slot in 1.dimension) is selected and I send PC15 it does not switch to the second bank and I would first have to select the second bank by hand. (For this to work automatically there would need to be a way to select the "bank" slots in the first dimension based on whether a program change message is within a range of values.)

Am I missing something, or how are program change messages supposed to work in the Synchron Player?

Hi Abk,

this is a problem I am having as well. The transitions from the piano to the forte layer in many legato patches are not great resulting in dramatic volume steps when increasing the velocity a tiny bit (the same holds for the full VSL libraries). There are surely also inherent changes in the sound character, but the main problem is the volume differences resulting in the pulsation you mention. This could easily be fixed and I am still hoping for library updates some day. An imperfect workaround is to use the velocity crossfade controller instead of velocity in which case these steps are smoothed out. It would be nice if VI pro could crossfade the different velocity layers when controlled by velocity as well, instead of merely switching them, which would likewise reduce these steps.

I shouldn't have written "it cannot be done in Logic", but rather "it cannot easily be done in Logic". As Macker writes you would have to set up a dedicated reverb, or a send to a bus with a reverb for each instrument, and adjust all the reverb parameters, send levels, panning yourself - and even this way you probably could not fully simulate that different instruments have a different distance to the listener. So unless you are an audio engineer (or want to become one), it should be much harder to get the coherent sound you get out of MIR.

If you are on a budget, MIRx is by far the cheapest entry into the MIR world. You can start with a single venue which does not significantly increase the price of the dimension libraries. MIRx is directly integrated in VI pro, automatically positions the different players on stage and it can even automatically adjust the relative volumes of the different instruments, so that everything is automatically normalized and balanced and you do not have to care about any of these (technical) aspects.

Also the standard Vienna Instruments Player does support SSDs. However, the pro version allows you to dial how much of the samples are loaded into RAM and this way you will only need a small fraction when using a fast SSD. With around 300GB of sample data dimension strings are very demanding when it comes to RAM usage, so this makes a big difference. But this is only one of many advantages VI pro offers. The dimension libraries do not contain any recorded phrases, like trills, runs or arpeggios. With the sequencer in VI pro you get all of these in various versions and in contrast to sampled phrases they can even sync to Logic's tempo. Yet, the biggest advantage is that VI pro offers more slots per cell, so you can have section presets that include all players of a section, instead of having to record each player individually. Via the humanize feature VI pro can automatically add randomness to each player (delay & tuning). These small imperfections, in combination with each player being properly positioned on stage, yield very realistic results even when recording a whole section at once.

For the dimension libraries the proper placement in a room is crucial (which cannot be done in Logic). But, unless you want to add non-VSL instruments into the venue or want to tweak things, MIR pro is not required. Just get one of the great MIRx venues and everything will work automatically. Being able to change venues (conveniently for the entire orchestra by simply selecting them from a menu) is probably the biggest advantage of VI(pro) compared to the Synchron player, since the venue has a dramatic impact on the sound.

In particular for the dimension strings you should also consider VI pro since this way you can access all players in one preset and it offers countless other advantages (SSD support, sequencer, ...).

that's great news . thanks so much for this update - really appreciated!

Martin, are there new samples included compared to the VI packages to realize the legato vibrato variations, or are these just the different sustains with the same transitions?

Paolo, thanks for the reply! 

Yes, that's exactly what I would like to do.

Unfortunately, the velocity curve seems to have only two parameters: one that determines by how much the volume is reduced at minimal velocity, and another one that controls the slope of the curve from minimal to maximal velocity. Yet, minimal and maximal velocity always seem to be fixed to 0 and 127 for every slot in a matrix.