I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one here who wants to hear from members who have actually tried out one or more workarounds for using Kontakt 7 (VST3)  in VEP.

We're not short of opinions here and that's all good. But shouting from the sidelines without actually knowing - or at the very least having real and relevant experience - of what you're talking about isn't going to help us move forward, is it? We need more than mere hubris if we're to seek out and find a convenient and useful workaround while waiting for VEP 8. We do not need need an internecine battle of mere opinions.

Without pointing at any member of this forum, I'm reminded of a recent televised court trial in Connecticut dealing with a notorious case of defamation, in which the jury awarded the plaintiffs almost a billion dollars in compensatory damages. During the trial the judge admonished the defendant thus:

Defendant:  "I believe what I said was true."

Judge:  "Yes, you believe everything you say is true but it isn't. Your beliefs do not make something true. That is ... [laughing sardonically] ... that is what we're doing here! Just because you claim to think something is true does not make it true. It does not protect you. It is not allowed.

Of course this forum is not a trial court, but nor is it a million miles apart from what a trial court generally does - both endeavour to seek out enough truth to get the job done reliably.

On Kushview Element (v0.46)

I've taken the time briefly to investigate one of the recommendations stated in this thread (by a member whose name is in the list of technical contributors to this particular product) - Kushview Element. The version numbering given on the website suggests this product is still not out of the beta-testing stage.

Element (VST2) loads into a VEP channel but the GUI window is far too short to show more than one or two items in the map, and I could not find any way of re-sizing the window. Element (AU) also loads but in this case the GUI window is properly sized and can easlly be re-sized. However, after having the stand-alone Element app scan for plugins, then inserting the Element (AU) plugin into VEP and loading Kontakt 7 (VST3) into Element's map, selecting any NI factory preset for one of the NI factory library instruments resulted in my computer hanging and being unresponsive. Each time, after several minutes I had to Force Quit VEP.

Moreover, the Kushview website clearly states - quite honestly I believe - various let-out clauses indicating the experimental nature of the product. Also, Kushview closed their webstore in August, stating that "We simply do not have the resources to offer timely support and maintenance."

I'm all for experimental tech designs, but only in suitable circumstances. In this forum I'm pretty sure we have not only professional musicians/composers and music/composition hobbyists but also tech hobbyists. I'm willing to bet that the musician pros and hobbyists here are not nearly as willing as tech hobbyists are to faff around and struggle with experimental tech products. Surely, recommending any experimental product here should be at least accompanied by some indication of what kind of circumstances it's best suited for.

I do not recommend Kushview Element for the purpose of operating Kontakt 7 (VST3) in VEP. Tech hobbyists don't need any opinion from me and no doubt will follow their own whims and take their own chances.

Austin4098, have you managed to load Kontakt 7 (VST3) into DDMF's Metaplugin and run it all ok in VEP?

I inserted the latest demo DDMF Superplugin into the latest VEP (in macOS 12.6), but Kontakt 7 (VST3) was notable by its absence in Superplugin's browser. Kontakt 7 (VST3) works just fine in my Cubase 12.

As I understand DDMF's blurb on their site, Metaplugin and Superplugin are supposed to have the same format-wrapping capabilities -  though I may be wrong about that.

I've used other DDMF products and find them to have some ingenuity here and there, but overall of somewhat hobbyist/amateur quality. A while back I deleted all of them from my system because of their unreliability. Not the sort of products I personally would want to recommend to professionals whose livelihood depends on pro quality equipment.

[UPDATE:-]    USE TIME MACHINE ONLY!

Having just updated macOS from 12.6 to 12.6.1, I find the procedure described below no longer works with Logic 10.7.5. Now it appears the only way to roll back to Logic 10.7.4 is via Time Machine. But the benefit is that Time Machine can restore Logic 10.7.4 alongside 10.7.5. (N.B. I've renamed each version of Logic as Logic 10.7.4 and Logic 10.7.5 in the Apps Folder before backing up to Time Machine; I don't know if Time machine will restore 10.7.4 alongside 10.7.5 if renaming is not done first).

Logic Pro 10.7.5 does not play nicely with VEPro - don't bother.

If you want to use Logic 10.7.5 for other purposes, you'll probably also want the option of rolling back to Logic 10.7.4. So make sure you backup Logic 10.7.4 to Time Machine before installing Logic 10.7.5

DISREGARD THE FOLLOWING IF USING macOS 12.6.1 OR LATER

[Original post:]

Unfortunately, no doubt as many Logic users already know, Apple's Logic installer no longer offers the option of keeping your current Logic version alongside the new installation. Also, the previous trick of simply renaming your current Logic app file won't prevent it from being consumed for update by the new installation.

Other than using Time Machine backups to roll back, there is a way to prevent Apple's current Logic installer from leaving you without your previous version of Logic.

1. We have to offer the Logic installer a 'sacrificial' older Logic or it won't install. (App Store seems to download the whole app rather than an appropriate update if it finds no valid Logic in your machine - perhaps assuming it's a first time purchase - but then refuses to install).

2. Before going anywhere near the App Store, duplicate your current Logic using the Finder's context command. (Don't use Option-click and drag to do this; it will create only an alias but we need the real thing.)

3. Move your duplicated Logic to another folder, away from the Apps folder, then Lock this copy (using the option box in the File Info window which pops up when you click "Get Info" in the Finder's context menu for the Logic app file).

4. Now you're ready to install Logic 10.7.5 from the App Store. When it's done, the 'sacrificial' Logic version you left behind in the Apps folder will no longer exist.

5. At this stage you can make another duplicate of the older Logic version that you hid away and locked; unlock it and move it back into the Apps folder.

6. Now you can select which version of Logic you wish to launch at any time.

I haven't had that warning popup you showed, nor have I yet had a crash, but I am getting the old problem of VEP client plugins not seeing VEPro addresses, among other misbehaviours.

I've started rolling back VEP versions to see if I can find one that works with this Logic, and I've also just updated macOS from 12.6 to 12.6.1. My testing is ongoing but thus far it's really not looking good.

[2017 64GB 7700K iMac, my boot volume is an external Samsung X5 SSD (all S.M.A.R.T. Health indicators showing 100%), and my iLok3 key is on a Sabrent powered USB 3.0 hub (no known problems thus far].

Houston, we have problems!

I do understand and agree with your standpoint on this, Dietz. "Chinese whispers" and careless incomprehension of information (not to mention deliberate lies and disinformation in hostile propaganda and smear campaigns) on Internet are a plague on us all.

I've now done what I can to tighten up my OP but please do mention any further concerns.

Dietz, in the interests of using the most technically correct terminology, I've now used a different expression for describing new MIR's IRs. I trust you'll let me know if this still isn't technically accurate.

I was trying to skirt around the (potential) issue that locating richly-wide, stage-wetted images of large Synchron instrument sections isn't exactly what MIR is designed to do. Best I can do is point out the fact that MIR cannot binauralise its channels; hope that's not depriving MIR of any due credit.

Also, I've now said explicitly that my unorthodox approach is intended for large Synchron instrument sections, and that MIR can of course be used in the normal way for single instruments and small ensembles.

Here's a get-you-going headphone mix setup for Synchron Strings Pro and MIR in Logic Pro. For each string section the dry(-ish) location and width on stage are produced by two binaural panners; while separately, a wet-only 2-dimensional HOA ambience is produced in MIR. The wet and dry stereo fields are then simply summed by Logic. The two binaural panners work together to exploit the unique properties of the Decca Tree in Synchron libraries.

Why do it this way? It's specifically for placing richly-wide and well-located dry(-ish) binaural sound images of large Synchron instrument sections anywhere on stage without involving MIR (because MIR cannot binauralise its channels); while at the same time but on separate wet-only paths, using MIR's unique ability to produce located 2D and 3D ambience images using its 'ambisonically-enhanced' IRs.

For me at least, it's the best result I've ever been able to achieve in terms of adding wet-only spatialised ambience on top of stage-wetted-only binaural locations and widths, for large Synchron instrument sections. If anyone has been able to achieve the same sort of results using only MIR in the normal way, please show us how - or at least post an audio demo.

For single instruments and small ensembles there is little if any advantage in using this unorthodox approach, since in these cases the dry (or lightly stage-wetted) image is not required to be spatially extensive. For these cases MIR can be used in the normal way for both dry and wet signal paths, alongside the unorthodox separated dry and wet paths approach described here for use with large Synchron instrument sections. But of course if you're already satisfied with the sound images you're achieving with large Synchron instrument ensembles (perhaps also with MIR used in the normal way for both dry and wet imaging), then this exercise is probably not for you.

There's no need here for the DearVR Monitor plugin. Several instances of the free DearVR Micro binaural panner plugin are used, which I much prefer compared to Logic's built-in binaural panners. (It's also possible to set up Logic for Dolby Atmos and use the Atmos Object panners for this purpose, but that's another story.)

3D dry location is also possible (within certain limits) for this setup, but in this example I've set up a concert-hall performance in which height is not especially relevant.

Stage Locations (intro) - with reference to the pictures in Attachment 1 - "Synchron and MIR Stage Plans"

For this case I've chosen to use a stage plan similar to an unusual one used by Berliner Phil, in which only Violins 1 are in the same(-ish) location as recorded by VSL in Synchron libraries. Below, I describe how I've applied binaural location and width to each string section separately, including Violins 1.

Observing the standard Synchron stage plan and the position of the Decca Tree, for purposes of dry binaural panning it seems (and sounds) best to use Left and Centre Tree mics for Vn1; the Centre and Right Tree mics for Vc and CB; and the Left and Right Tree mics for Vn2 and Va.

The Mixers - with reference to the pictures in Attachment 2 - "Synchron and Logic Mixers"

In Synchron Player

In each of the 5 Synchron players inserted in Logic, having selected the relevant string section, go to the MIXERPRESET tab and activate the "default" factory preset. Then set up each of the string section mixers as shown in Attachment 2. (Please be careful not to overlook the OUTPUT setting for each activated mic.)

In Logic

Apply the setup for Logic's mixer as shown in Attachment 2. (Note the reversal of mono-input selections in the aux track pairs for Vc and CB.)

MIR Plugins Setting: All set to 100% Wet

DearVR Micro binaural panner plugin settings (Revised 31st Oct.):-

Preliminary settings in all instances of the DearVR Micro plugin:-

• HRTF: DearVR
• Elevation: 0°
• Reflections: Off
• Focus: 100% (HRTF) (For a subsequent loudspeaker mix, this setting can be reduced to alleviate any unwanted mixing of psychoacoustic cues due to loudspeaker crosstalk.)
• Width: 0% (Whilst adding width may sometimes seem to be beneficial when listening to an instrument in solo, in a busy mix I'm currently preferring all width settings at zero.

Azimuth settings in each DearVR Micro panner (get-you-going values only, you can do better!):-

• Vn1 Bin-L:   -48°
• Vn1 Bin-R:  -10°
• Vn2 Bin-L:   10°
• Vn2 Bin-R:   48°
• Va Bin-L:        4°
• Va Bin-R:     24°
• Vc Bin-L:    -24°
• Vc Bin-R:      -4°
• CB Bin-L:   -30°
• CB Bin-R:    30°

Each pair of binaurally-panned aux tracks need to be mixed together carefully by ear to produce the best sounding combination of azimuth and width. And this is where interactions between the settings of each of the two binaural panners and their relative levels (even a 0.1dB change may make a discernible difference) can lead to much rabbit-hole exploration!

Stage Locations in MIR - with reference to the picture of MIR in Attachment 1 - "Synchron and MIR Stage Plans"

Alas, we now have to set up stage locations and widths again, this time in MIR for wet-only ambience. In this case we're operating on Synchron's Mid mics, fed only to MIR. And just as Dietz recommends that feeding MIR with a stereo image is beneficial for MIR ambience, Synchron's MId mics do seem to lead to better sounding MIR ambience, compared to using the mono Close mics.

The picture of MIR shown in Attachment 1 shows the locations and widths for each string section that match up fairly well with the corresponding dry locations and widths produced by the binaural panning detailed above - but here again, you can do better!

I know it's a lot of extra work compared to using MIR in the normal - and very convenient - way. I guess I'm like the guy who went to his doctor complaining that he always seemed to do things the difficult way; long story short, the doctor finally asked him "So ... how do you make love with your wife?", to which the guy replied "Well ... have you ever tried standing up in a hammock?"

Happy mixing! Trust your ears - and allow yourself plenty of time to develop intuitive skills where needed!

Audio Demo (Revised 31st Oct.) - Attachment 3

First 132 bars of the Scherzo in Tchaikovsky's 4th Symphony.

I suggest you listen with eyes closed. I've used no automation anywhere except for Vel.XF on each string section merely to follow the score. The instrument sounds are all factory default, straight out of the box. No EQ or Fx have been added anywhere. All of the dramatic apparent 'panning' shifts going on in realtime are due solely to Tchaikovsky's buoyantly burlesque bounding around the string sections!

Errikos, I'd be happy to do that for you. Glad to hear you're advancing on that front.

When you eventually have a couple of stories ready, PM me an email address and I'll email you back.

Errikos, please do not start doubting the worthiness of your posts here! If they help even one reader break through clouded thoughts or want of clear self-direction, and who perhaps then goes on to write truly wonderful music, then your words here are pure gold - no matter that due credit is rarely if ever forthcoming in such cases.

I packed up researching modern philosophy many years ago, mainly because it's all so heavily strewn with fool's gold. The time and effort involved in digging through the glistering crap in the hope of finding the odd nugget of real gold here and there were just not worthwhile. But given that truth is Champagne for me, I'm delighted by the quality and quantity of my favourite tipple on offer here, and you're one of the top purveyors!

(And I bloody well hope you get properly serious about also writing literature for profit, sooner rather than later.)

I do see the potentially huge amount of ball-ache involved in setting up a hybrid Synchron-plus-Sy-zd instrument. But I'm not sure what your idea includes when you say "and copy along with it its native Mixer channels".

It appears the only "extra" data concerning the mixer that's included in a copied patch is the current routing matrix settings in Output Config for that patch (or just one mixer channel number in the case of a Sy-zd patch). And even so, unfortunately for intrepid pioneers, we can't directly copy/paste the Output Config matrix settings, nor choose whether or not to include Output Config settings when copying/pasting a patch.

For more than that, I can't see any way of copying and pasting individual mixer channel strip settings, like in, for example, Logic Pro. Either loading a whole user or factory mixer preset, or else a bit of fiddly manual work, seem to be the only options, assuming this is what you have in mind. Perhaps the only 'easy' part is that manually adding and setting up the extra channel(s) in the mixer has to be done only once for the Synchron Player, for purposes of pasting Synchron patches into a Sy-zd dimension tree.

That said, I applaud your pioneering spirit; it's sparked off several other ideas I now want to try - if I can face all the bloody fiddly work, lol.

I'm using Synchron Strings Pro with new MIR but have only The Sage Gateshead room pack. Even so, I'd bet that you'll have no problems at all running Close or Mid or even Main Synchron mics into new MIR Teldex.

I've come to regard Synchron Stage A's acoustics as the most "elegantly polite and congenial" of any major scoring stage in the world, if I can put it that way. My MIR Gateshead room pack shows that the acoustics of The Sage's Hall One, having been very carefully designed using the latest in acoustics knowledge and techniques, are also very polite, pretty and unobtrusive. And yet even feeding MIR Gateshead with Synchron's Main mics doesn't interfere or detract from the Gateshead sound, as far as I can tell. The only constraint I observe is that any panning or recorded directionality on a Synchron mic should first be straightened out before feeding to MIR.

If I recall, the Teldex sound has quite a rich, distinctive character. I don't imagine any of the Standard Library Synchron mics would intrude even noticeably, let alone upset the Teldex character. But of course, like you, I'd be very interested to hear from owners of new MIR Teldex who've tried it with Sychron instruments.

I'm aware sharing and roles are there, Dietz, but haven't yet gotten around to serious exploration. I will, soonish.

In this evening's live-streamed concert by Berliner Phil at the Philharmonie Berlin, I was delighted to see a bold new stage seating plan I've never seen or heard of before (see pic attached). Just looking at it instantly made sense, and then the Tonmeister produced a superb live mix. Sound-wise, it works.

The big new changes are: Contrabasses in one line abreast extending both sides of the centre line (immediately behind two lines of woodwinds); Celli all grouped to the left of centre (adjoining Violins 1 in their usual Karajan position); and 'loud' brass (not horns) in a detached front-back line at the far right side (now not blasting straight into the ears of long-suffering woodwind players!).

At next week's concert I guess we'll find out if it was just a one-time change organised by the guest conductor, Iván Fischer, only for this evening's concert of works by Richard Strauss and Gustav Mahler (1st Symphony). I don't believe any of these works really necessitated the new seating plan; so perhaps it was just an additional consideration - which I hope will carry on.

I've just applied these new positions to one of my test pieces for strings, and I love it.

[P.S. Erm ... what's up with the view count here? Over 1000 views in 12 hours?? Way too weird to be kosher methinks.]

[UPDATE - One week later]

Well the stage seating plan has changed again. Contrabasses now where horns and harps usually are; one long line of brass behind 2 rows of woodwind. (See attached pic.) This plan is by no means new at the Philharmonie Berlin; for example, have a look at this concert recorded back in 2012.

Liszt - doing a bit of Wagner-channeling

Rubens, 

thanks for PM expressing your interest in my unorthodox approach for using new MIR to attain 2D spatialisation in 2 channel stereo. Unfortunately my hands are usually full with my other work and so I can't get involved in individual tutorials; sorry - hope you understand. However, at some future time I do intend to post a detailed guide on implementing my unorthodox approach using MIR in VEPro

Meanwhile, perhaps you and others might find it helpful to have a look at my original post on the unorthodox approach, in which I briefly describe my reasoning for this approach, and my setup in Logic and MIR. And in my second post in that thread, I link to another of my posts on this topic, in the Synchron Forum, in which I also briefly summarise the technique and include short mp3 audio demos of test results.

"Spatialising Synchron Strings - an unorthodox approach"

This is fabulously charismatic, William! Bravo! I really enjoyed listening. I'd say it's partly due to the wonderful new spatial magic rendered by new MIR, but of course mainly it's thanks to your masterful 'conducting' of your VSL orchestra.

It's got me thinking, too. I'm curious about what more might be possible now to make a mix even more alluring and magical, after having reached the astoundingly fine new level of quality of mockup that you've achieved here.

I certainly hope VSL put your Conan in their showcase, not least because exactly as it is now, your mockup stands as clear and splendid testament to the night and day difference between old and new MIR.

Completely agreed with your view of Modern concert music, William. The period of so-called High Modernity (early 20th century) degenerated into an awful kind of 'senile dementia' (well the modern era was already 5 centuries old by that time!), as personified perhaps in the faux-music atrocities perpetrated by Karlheinz Stockhausen. And yet today, that which some are pleased to call "postmodernism" really isn't; it's just even more high-modernist claptrap but with the 'dementia' somewhat cloaked by the cultural equivalent of anti-dementia meds, Lol.

That said, as with perhaps many if not most failed attempts at cultural innovation, some bits and pieces of the novelties of high-modernist ("newspeak") atonalism do seem to have percolated into the more stable and long-term strata of music idioms and vernaculars of today, and look set to stay with us for who knows how long. Just as our spoken languages very slowly adopt worthy novelties along the way, somewhat as in a Shakespearean sea change.

Take heart, William. As I watched the latest concert by Berliner Phil, I noticed a surprisingly large proportion of younger people in the audience. And what about the giant open air classical music concerts in Germany and Austria where most of the audiences certainly aren't old fogeys? Are the days and influence of "snowbird" and "blue-rinse" concert audiences at last fading away perhaps?

Bottom line:- it's NOT absolutely necessary to use DAW or VEP or new MIR configured for multichannel surround, in order to produce a beautifully "spatialised" headphone mix - regardless of what words we might use to name that "spatialisation".

1.  For headphone renditions of an orchestra playing in front of an audience in an auditorium, not only can MIR produce very nicely spatialised wet reverberant ambience, but also, if desired, reasonably well defined dry instrument positions on stage, all delivered as 2 channel audio with no need to add the DearVR Monitor plugin for headphone monitoring.

2.  For ambitious users who want to improve the quality of dry-only positioning of instruments on stage - using only 2 channel audio throughout and no DearVR Monitor at the end of the chain - it's perfectly possible to deal with instrument dry placement outside of MIR, using a binaural panning plugin (such as the free DearVR Micro plugin - other similar plugins are available) on an audio feed that does not go on to MIR, for each instrument or small group of instruments. In this case, stereo channels carrying the dry binaural placements of instruments are eventually mixed with MIR's wet-only ambience output, and hey presto:- a very nicely spatialised headphone mix!

IMPORTANT: Both these approaches require careful selection (or construction, for very technically-minded users) of the virtual microphone(s) in MIR.

Although the 2nd approach is not necessarily rocket science, it does of course require more setting up than when using MIR alone for both dry and wet signals. After all, MIR is designed for best possible user-convenience.

My last post in Part 1 of this thread still applies - with one exception that I'll set straight at the end of this post.

dewdman, your last post in Part 1 of this threead is a prime example of why you've been called out so often by various members here, including me. Starting with your appalling attack on Ivan, the proprietor of AudioGroceries in a forum elsewhere, and your shameless trolling of my posts and your too-often slapdash and unreliable 'advice' in this forum; it's no wonder that your word is distrusted and you're called out. Look in the mirror.

You call me a liar now? Then present hard evidence to substantiate your foul accusation, or take it back. 

I have hard evidence of the inferior performance of your modification of VSL's VEP AU2 workaround, and posted a brief description of the theory, the test method and the results, in this forum earlier this year:-

Post309201

The point about defamation is that it must be untrue. You're very quick and slick with your defamation of others (always projecting your own faults), and with gaslighting, doubling down and playing victim, etc, but you never back any of it up with any hard evidence - it's always just very selective opinion, innuendo, wishy-washy association and hearsay.

As far as I'm concerned, my test results show that I can rightly call your AU2 workaround "snake oil" - without "bearing false witness", and regardless of whether you manage to inveigle a moderator to intervene on your behalf. My evidence based criticism is not lying, is not defamation. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

For other readers:- In my closing remarks of my last post in Part 1 of this thread, I implied it might be possible to go back to the VSL AU2 workaround on an ARM Mac. But since I really don't want to risk misleading anyone on the shaky grounds of hearsay and speculation, I'll now put that remark on hold until such times as I have an ARM Mac and run my own tests in that regard.

pford, of course that's right, the bleeding obvious option of running Logic with VEP AU2 without any multiport workaround can't be beaten in terms of reliability - just so long as 1 port per instance provides adequate capacity and convenience for one's template.

But for the pro who wrote the OP, things are not so simple. He was commenting specifically on the issue of multiport operation.

So, whilst my stress tests have established that dewdman's snake oil modification of VSL's original AU2 multiport workaround is hopeless for reliability in comparison to VSL's simple design, there is actually no possible AU2 workaround at all for use in Logic's Environment that can guarantee port-addressing reliability in typically heavy realtime usage. The dreaded hanging notes syndrome with the AU2 workaround is the result of a Note On and its Note Off being delivered to different ports when, in fast and furious realtime MIDI traffic, the port-address message becomes separated from its proper port data by intervening traffic from elsewhere. Nothing can be done in Logic's Environment to ensure that port address and port data stick together under all conditions - the Environment simply isn't built that way.

The least error-prone AU2 workaround is VSL's original one, but it should be used with a low number of ports per instance - as recommended by VSL - to reduce the probability of port message separation errors in realtime. In my stress tests, dewdman's AU2 workaround produces plenty of errors even when configured for 2 ports per instance - so to call it snake oil is probably too kind. Don't be tempted by the snake oil salesman - it's simply not fit for purpose.

If reports are correct about VEP AU3 not working at all in ARM/Rosetta, then those of us with large Logic templates are basically f****d in terms of buying ARM Macs and expecting to use VEP. That is .... unless we put up with the low port-per-instance limitation and use the VSL AU2 workaround, at least until ARM-native VEP is released. And judging by VSL's quietness recently, my guess is that there's some serious testing of something new and important going on right now ...... hopefully, ARM-native and VST3 compatible VEP 8. (Well hey, I can dream!)

Oh, and for those who expect a new Mac Studio (using Logic or Cubase), to be a dream come true, check out this video by pro composer and educator Guy Michelmore, posted on YT about a month ago:-

Mac Studio for Music - First Impressions

Thanks for your response, Dietz.

I guess most MIR users who want to produce top quality spatialised headphone mixes - but without resorting to more laborious and tricky non-orthodox solutions - will get used to having to operate MIR with a recommended 3rd party external quasi-binauraliser that has no option at least to cancel crosstalk between the simulated loudspeakers. It's mainly this crosstalk that puts MIR at a disadvantage, quality-wise.

C'est la vie.

Hej, Cadenza. Given that you have DearVR Monitor plugged into VEP, and the fact that DearVR Monitor is VST3, AU, AAX only, then you must be running VEP on a Mac. The good news then is that you could, if you wish to, use DearVR's free "MICRO 3D" binaural panner plugin (AU) instead of VEP's standard stereo panner, on instrument channels or small instrument-group busses.

I mention this because it might help you achieve the '3D spatialisation' you want, using VEP and MIR Pro 3D both configured for 2 channel stereo, with Finale. I've done something similar, using Logic, VEP and new MIR, all configured for 2 channel stereo throughout.

I create separate dry and wet audio paths, then use new MIR fully wet to produce its glorious spatialised reverb for each instrument position on MIR's stage; while - outside MIR - positioning dry (or dry-ish) instruments in beautifully convincing 2 dimensional space (I'm not interested in height, though it's possible to do). I use binaural panners for each dry instrument audio path, to match the wet instrument positions on MIR's own stage. Then, on mixing these wet and dry audio streams back together (after MIR), I have a very lovely spatialised headphone mix - WITHOUT using DearVR Monitor (which, in this particular case, degrades both the dry binaural panning and MIR's wet spatialisation).

If you fancy trying this alternative, non-orthodox approach, you can do the necessary dry/wet path spltting, routing, binaural panning, and final recombining of of wet and dry audio streams, all in VEP. The crucial step is in selecting a virtual microphone in MIR that produces wide and well spatialised images of fully wet reverb, without having to use a surround speaker output configuration. As a starting point I'd suggest trying out the "Stereo - MIR 3D HOA Capsules" as MIR's main virtual mic, and listening to the fabulous spatial reverb you get when opening out the instrument's width on MIR's stage.

If you discover a different way of using VEP and MIR in 2-channel stereo to produce wonderful positioning and spatialisation, I'd love to hear about it!

And by the way, as far as I'm aware Dietz is the only expert on MIR (by a very wide margin) in this forum - indeed he's VSL's Design Authority for MIR. There is no need to pay any heed to anyone else here trying to tell you (with fake, trumped-up 'authority') what you cannot do!

Dietz, I'd like to add another angle to my suggestion for embedding ambisonics binauralisation in new MIR.

It occurs to me that if DearVR are able to offer their "Ambi Micro" ambisonics binauraliser plugin as a freebie (given of course that it helps Sennheiser's marketing prospects for their AMBEO VR microphone), then surely we're not talking about massively expensive and perhaps risky new technological development - as would be the case for developing MIR to incorporate as an option the Bilateral Ambisonics concept I mentioned above.

Indeed, if I may be so bold, what about a deal between VSL and DearVR to license use of (or relevant chunks of) DearVR's Ambi Micro code, embedded for optional use in MIR?

Just a thought.

A few points on improvisation, and on blues and jazz.

Improv.   It's been said by witnesses that Beethoven could improvise for hours on end. We can only guess at how many other great western composers had similar abilities. Also, let's not forget that Indian classical music performance combines highly complex, strict structural and syntactical rules with artistic extemporisation. And today, French church organists are expected to be able to extemporise during divine services as well as in secular concerts. A couple of examples of the latter:-

Olivier Messiaen - Improv in church organ concert

Olivier Latry - Organ improv on a submitted theme, during a seminar at Notre Dame University, USA

Is the ability and talent to extemporise - at least on piano - strictly necessary for western orchestral composers? I'd say not. But surely it is of great benefit here and there, now and then, when composing. At the very least, who will deny that switching one's head into the extempore mentality is a very effective antidote to the dreaded "paralysis-by-analysis" syndrome? And of course, the more familiar that one is with theory as well as craft, the more extensive, elaborate and complex one's improvisations are - potentially - able to be.

That said, I seriously doubt if anyone can rightly refute that deliberated, analytically-founded composition is able, more often than not, to exceed in terms of richness and depth of complexity, what extemporisation on its own can produce. I suspect the ideal is a profound marriage of both abilities.

Blues.   I subscribe to the theory that the genre of Blues was a originally a discovery made by a few black slaves in the Americas when first encountering and using the European guitar tuned to Equal Temperament. My own analysis showed that uniquely in ET there is a very close proximity (approx. 2 cents) to the 17th partial (the angst-riddled and highly discomfiting "blue" note), and also to the 19th partial (an exquisitely beautiful yet somewhat 'veiled' and hence deeply wistful minor 3rd); neither of which are available in any of the historically mainstream intonation schemas. Furthermore, blues musicians finding that the "blues scale" is amenable to modal usage is surely a significant discovery and innovation in the history of music.

However, as proved time and again, especially by the "Boston Pop Orchestra" surge in the '70s, and by the many "pomp rock" attempts to use symphonic orchestras or ensembles to accompany rock bands, orchestras typically don't intone the two crucial ET blues notes correctly in ET. Instead, it seems most orchestral musicians tend to play in their usual and "more proper" orchestral intonation. Hence we have yet to see a great marriage of orchestra and rock band. Not having done any measurements on this (I just can't find any motivation to do so) I can only surmise that talented blues musicians who use orchestral instruments have learned to intone the two crucial notes of the blues scale according to ET.

Jazz.   Never been my cup of tea, so I can't speak much on this. However, it is apparent that as a popular music genre, a good deal of perfidious repurposing of modern music theory (and some older theory - e.g. liberalisation of modal usage) has gone into the jazz genre as we know it, and which I applaud.

But alas, it's hard to get away from the view that blues and jazz genres have both done their dash now. I find it sad and often somewhat annoying when attempts are made either to resurrect these genres without any significant innovations, or, worse, to carry on obliviously as if these genres are still current and widely welcomed among general audiences. But in contrast, both John Barry and John Williams have dug into their jazz backgrounds and popped a few jazz constructs here and there into their great and much loved compositions for film, with superb effect. "Gentlemen of taste", as ever, show us the way.

A shocking and horrifying revelation, William! 

Now I'm desperately hoping that someone - such as your good self - with direct experience and knowledge of this dreadful threat to everyone here will lead the way in exposing it in some detail, so that we may at least try to be on our guard - if it's not already too late! 

Perhaps a William Kersten animation production would be a most suitable vehicle for such a warning to artists.

(And somehow, I've an eager feeling that another fabulous animation production by William Kersten may pop up sooner rather than later, lol.)