Wow, I mean, wow. This thread is... wow! I was reading it and laughing out loud, quite literaly. But then I noticed, that there is nothing funny in here:

- few talented / not talented people with valid / not valid opinions about flawed product,

- few people with valid / not valid opinions about opinions of the first few,

- one person who thinks everything is not valid until comes from that person.

Reading this thread is like trip to mental hospital. Seriously fucked up. I see no reason why anyone from VSL should join this discussion. And apparently every Synchron Strings thread turns into this kind of cock fight. 

And on the other side VSL is patching high end, 250GB library with bandaid called Synchronized Strings. For me this is basically saying - well, our humongous library is lacking (thin sound that needs to be layered, no divisi, no portamento, fewer velocity layers of chamber strings are as good as 8 of SyS).

I don't know how SyS sales, but looking it online brings only negativity. If it doesn't hurt sales cool for VSL (similarweb shows that traffic volumes are actually awesome). They are the winners here. If it does hurt sales - guys, start talking. Because if I were potential cumstomer and ended up here. Oooh boy.

I just finished my first piece with SS based on SP ;)

It's upbeat piece, so it may be something new for Synchrons. You can hear here also VSL SE and Hollywood Brass. I tried to use all Synchron articualtions (it's not hard tbh). Also I decided to go with legato blur at default 30 and additonal Synchron Player reverb (0.7s) to fatten the sound a bit.

In my opinion synchrons seems to work pretty well for faster lines, where lack of legato transitions is not that painful. But I really missed some portamento, so I used slurs few times instead, but this is not the same thing.

https://www.orfium.com/track/727975/adventure-time-katzpersky/

Any opinions are welcomed. And I dedicate this piece to @William :)

Originally Posted by: William

O.K., I want to hear also what this person does that is so fantastically natural and real sounding.  What music do you do when not trashing Synchron?  Why are you the judge?  I  notice you keep on appearing and trashing Synchron.  I truly want to know, not out of hostility - I am just amazed by the so-called experts who appear out of nowhere and then decided what is good or bad.  O.K. - so why should we listen to you in particular?  What do you actually know and do?  Besides just post things on your computer... 

WILLIAM KERSTEN

www.williamkersten.com

I've got ears. And I love music. And taking those two factors I can say that this mock-up is... well, fake to my ears. Sorry if my ears hurt your feelings. Hope fahl5 won't take my opinion as personally as you are taking it. Because the whole project is massive, extremely ambitious and for sure needed lots of work. But my ears just don't click with it. And I think that it is about that analytical feel. not skill of artist. But - if I understand correctly - this is a point of those mockups.To take the music out of it's natural enviroment and dissect it.

And by the way. I'm a hobbyist, not a Professional. Proud of it. And just for you I'll create post in Orchestration - Composition - Instruments thread with my first SS piece with Synchron Player. Hopefully today. I'll ping you. So wait for my notification. No sense in derailing the thread anymore.

Heh, I think that liking / disliking this mockup in the end depends on personal tastes and bias towards certain aestethics. And it also might be the case when looking at people who love or hate Synchron Strings.

Because what I hear in this mockup sounds fake. I would never think that this is live performance. It's too sterile, to clean, too dead - sometimes I see term 'analytical' to describe things like that. Samples sound perfect, but machine like perfect, not human-like flawed perfection.

So what I hear in this mockup are machines playing cool piece of music and trying to trick me they are not machines. Fortunately they are failing. Just my two cents.

Although the shorts indeed sound great on its own :)

Originally Posted by: LAJ

8

I would not sell anything now, because ... just emagine the third package would have all the articulations you are missing like an emotional Legato-slur and different portamenti and runs, slides etc. ... the basic articulations are still in the first package and you will need both.

I'm not selling either. But I would give them back if there would be an option ;) Or maybe there should be an exchange program - library for a library of equal or lower value?

Anyway, if there will be an expansion pack I would need to buy another ssd for that, not mentioning RAM upgrade. And why should I invest more money into Synchron Strings if - in general - they dissapoinited me? I'm glad that this nigthmare of a release is over though. Now I'm going to write some crap music.

Free portamento expansion would be nice though and for that I can find additional 10GBs of space ;)

Interesting question and no easy answer. I will try to answer without taking into equation the emotional baggage that came with that release.

If I would somehow pay full price I would say 3 / 10. Very basic articulation set that looks big because of plenty of redundant patches with similar content, huge amount of space on drive needed, but reason for that is not obvious (one of competitors also have 7-8 layers, but he managed to sqeeze it into 30GB library), fake sforzando (!!!), The Blur, odd slur legato, to small of a difference between vibratos + unrealised promises. And for 600 bucks I could buy at ease 2 or even 3 other string libraries if lucky.

But I paid much less and for that it is... 5/10? Because shorts are awesome, pizzicatos are sweet, overall sound is clean, pure, raw + player is nice, although still needs work.

But there are bigger in terms of content (and lighter on resources) libraries for less. So if VSL would say "we are giving money back for synchrons", I would take them without hesitation. I guess it sums things up.

Originally Posted by: fatis12_24918

Hi Piotr, I almost quoted your whole post... just few hours before you posted it :) Anyway I'm happy others feel the same and have the same technical understanding, it increases the probability and hope that VSL will work on the listed points.

Haha, yes, I'm aware of that, I red your post and I was like: should I write what I wanted to write or just say "I agree 100%"? But I decided that this forum needs another long post about thing that bugs (probably not only) us ;)

I like the player. It lacks keyboard support though and everything has to be clicked by mouse to apply, but I like it. There is very smart idea behind it and building presets feels fresh and deep.

But what I don't like is that VSL is dialing legato blur at 30 and adds algo reverb by default (reverb sounds very nice though). So by default we don't hear natural acoustics of stage in ambient library. Is there something wrong with this stage? Or you think that users won't appreciate raw, natural sound of Synchrons?

Second, The Blur - overlaping transition with unnatural release from previous note is not true legato. It is a trick which could work for librararies without true legato. Why do you guys want us to blur the transitions that were played by great musicians and recorded by master engineers? Why you don't want us to hear true legato and instead of that you promote "smeared release"?

And the last - slur. I would like to hear how to use it. Why the slur seems to be random? I created patch that is  crossfading normal legato with slured and I kinda like it, but I never know where the slur will occur. Big interval? Small interval? Random interval? ;)

In the end player is huge step forward, made this library workable. But "legato" based on cheap trick which is easy to spot (huge build-up of fake release) is just bad magic.

Tbh I don't expect answers, although I truly would like to hear some. Because signs that I see are basically saying that you are not that proud of your kid, but you just don't want to say that out loud.

Competitor is Hollywood Strings. So yes, it's not very new library, but despite that it gives much more control over produced sound imo (vibrato, legato).

As for standard synchron legato - for me it is odd, it sounds detached. In naked demo they sound okish, but they've got habit of surprising during sequencing (odd atacks, transition buildup, don't know how to call it). On lyrical vibrato patches it's okish. Slow legato is the best out of the pack, but works only for slow passages. None of them are great or reinvented. And I think this is the biggest problem. We were lured by big marketing words, promises and we believed them, because it was VSL. And everything since then went downhill. One of the worst releases in sample history I guess.

In the end it's all about your own ears - take audition credit, pay that 20 euros, test Synchrons with player when it's out (in context of sequencing, not playing around, because while played they are beautifully responsive). Because regret over few 100 euros will be much bigger than over 20 euros. And you might actually like them.

Here is second approach - this time volumes are similar and additional legato was added. Disclaimer: Performed by robots that are dead inside - means no CC data ;)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1yvoi9dlyllaadb/legato-2nd.mp3?dl=0

1st - competitor,

2nd - synchrons, normal legato, vibrato,

3rd - synchrons normal legato, lyrical vibrato,

4th - synchrons slow legato, normal vibrato

Originally Posted by: TheAmateurMuscian

I do know that legato and slurring is not the same thing, so I wasn't expecting the legato to be perfectly smooth, but considering I plan to invest in VSL when I'm employed, this is worrying.

Hey, if this is something that could help you, here are 3 legato lines - first is performed with one of competitors library, second are Synchrons, standard vibrato patch (mix), third are also Synchrons, but patch is lyrical vibrato (mix), normal legato. None of them sound good, but it's because there is no CC data - to show pure transitions without any additional processing.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/b5fw1ihqtq9838l/legatos.mp3?dl=0

Anyway, being at your place I'd wait for release of Synchron Player for Strings I and for more reviews.

Originally Posted by: Spoilsman

Originally Posted by: matthieu.lechowski

Originally Posted by: Spoilsman

a refund should be offered.

I already asked this to support. The answer was no.

That has to be illegal. We paid. We didn’t get what we paid for. I’ll look into this, but VSL should,change their attitude. The customer is always right, and if you ignore that, no amount of pretentious showboating will save you.

Well, actually I'm against that "customer is always right" proverb. It's dumb and very often untrue. Fyi, I worked with customers for long time, long time ago (in a galaxy far, far away). I much more prefer "be fair with customer".

Just quick note:

Very optimistic post by LAJ (this guy has real strenght which I - unfortunately - doesn't share! ;D ) doesn't repeal questions asked above, so I would like to get answer to them. Thanks!

Originally Posted by: Paul

Hello Matthieu, 

I'm sorry to hear that.

Also, you're missing out on a great sample player. 

Best, 
Paul

But is he missing also great library? What I'm basically saying is: did you address the issues that were pointed out to you on forums etc.?

For now I feel like an early adopter who recieved MVP. Early adopters are more forgiving in nature, but only because in the end they hope for great product. Hence lots of sometimes nicer, sometimes not very nice feedback on this forum, Vi-Control etc.

If Synchron Strings will turn out to be great (they are not for now, basically nothing was re-invented there) - we're cool with a bit of hard feelings. But if you're basically repackaging the same thing to more shiny package after 7 months... Well, probably nothing big will happen to be honest. Just more hate and dissapointment online.

So:

- did you re-edit or re-record legato patches taking that you've got your own scoring stage? 

- what about too much attack on sustains?

- are you planning to add some actual new content with release of Synchron Player for SS I? Because I've seen phrase "new content" few times here and it may be confusing

Anyway I think it's time to stop being so secretive and tell us what you've got there. Because, I'm not gonna lie, I'm pissed. But trying to behave ;)

I think that VSL guys have more pressing matters than trying to make player which is very late to the party, work with old libraries ;)

Ok, we've had our laughs, time to get serious. As you clearly can't say "when", which suggest that you are far from finishing it, maybe you could start revealing some secrets of features that you are 100% confident will be in final version of player? So more of a "what' kind of question. Mixer doesn't count!

Are you planning to add some kind of presets like in pianos to model sound of strings? What about new algorithms that you advertised? What will they do? Does the new player will unlock some additional power behind 1 000 000 of samples that are taking half of my SSD? By that I mean for example measured tremolos, time-stretch, additional legato manipulation etc.?

Thanks for any information that will be inofrmative ;)

Yay, new video and function - thanks! Although, I must add, you could just say that you are still developing new functions for VI. Some threads could have been still open with that piece of information...

But again, thank you for video. Will check how this blur works.

Well, that escalated quickly ;D

And basically I would like to leave it be, but... Nah, troll will be troll :)

"That is hilarious.  You respect everyone and then call them "fool." "

You can respect a fool, it's not contradictory, at least in my opinion ;)

"No, you are not happy, you are sarcastic. To me it is a tool for professionals, not a toy."

"Also - I ask again - what are your qualifications"

Why are you constantly bringing back "profesionalism" as your weapon of choice? You seem to be (based on your web site) pretty creative, prolific artist. And some of those short snippets on your site sounds really great. Yet your arguments seems to be most dismissive...

"I never asked for an echo chamber - just some respect instead of totally trashing a great new library"

Please, read again everything people here wrote. You might be surprised how much positive aspects we covered. Plus a bit of additional hope for even more. And some trashing too. Sure.

"Thank you dterry for a kind and friendly comment.  You are clearly a professional with some respect for other professionals. "

So you basically like to look in the mirror right? ;)

"I already asked that and I notice - no one did. Why? THEY DON'T HAVE ANY.    Go ahead and contradict me with actual music.  That will shut me up - if it's any good. "

I think no one here said anything bad about your music per se. While music and performance are inseparable, they are not the one. I see here mostly remarks over performance, not composing. If someone says something to me that might improve me as a person, composer, I think of it and then apply or discard. I don't think if he or she is pro enough to teach me.

Still I would like guys from VSL to chime in about our doubts/hopes, but maybe in this thread it would come as a risky thing to do. So I agree that our clear and constant negativity should be channeled in separate thread.

ps.

In my first post I mentioned that my Synchron piece is available to all of you on my orfium (link in description). Feel free to bash it. Maybe I'll learn something valuable.

There is something strange in this library, on sustains and legatos to be precise. When I play it, bash random notes on keyboard it sounds fantastic - incredibly responsive and playable as hell. Maybe not 100% "realistic", but fun and almost impressive. But when it comes to sequencing, things start to look different, it's much less fluent, much more complicated and the feeling of responsivness fades out like a morning mist.

Today I finished my first synchron based piece (it is on my Orfium for interested ones - name is Dusk) and while I truly love the sound I must admit that I had few bumps during sequencing it - and it is not complex piece of music. The biggest problem was too much attack on legatos and sustains, sometimes almost close to mild sfz. I managed to tame it a bit with changing attack with cc's, but it is far from "a new level of ease-of-use." Also when I used repetitions on longs, second one started always with (much) more attack.

The second thing which baffles me is hugeness of the whole thing. We've got 7-8 velocity layers for longs but during crossfade reduced to 5-6. So why do we need so much velocities on sustains? Should we rely only on velocity control and let go the changes of timbre during sustains?

I don't want to be taken as a troll, because I love the sound, I love expressivness, I have no problem with basic set of articulations (but I paid early bird price and took advantage of free voucher promo). But I'm afraid that any expansion with additional articulations will make this library way, waaay too big (with missing legatos it is more than 200GB, so we will get about 260 - 300GB for standard lib when they come out).

I'm one of early birds, I know I bought unfinished product and I still believe that Synchron Player will improve workflow and controls substantialy (because it is clear that VI is not great for multi-mic setup, even though I love this piece of software), will add legato control (speed, volume), will use those new algorithms you guys wrote about on site and make sequencing a breeze. But it would be nice to get confirmation from VSL that indeed in current player not everything works as intended.

Originally Posted by: fahl5

IMHO I am sure a good musician is able to do wonderful things with Synchron Strings and as we can and have to wait until the Library (and its player) is complete we also can and have to wait for good music done with that Library.

I'm also sure of that. The magic is in music, composition, orchestration, not in samples. But Synchron legato seems to be too sudden / slurs to loud and somehow they feel detached. Audio below has 3 legato types, standard, slow, slured, out of the box, same velocity etc. Maybe it's just me, but the connection is not that... connected (slow sounds the best imo).

https://soundcloud.com/piotr_katzpersky/legato-1/s-M8ZWD

I believe that there will be some magical legato knob in Synchron Player to manipulate those samples. So again to Paul: can you confrm that Player will have additional legato transition control? I'm not saying to hurry (take your time guys!), I just want more informations.

By the way, sorry to OP for derailing the thread, but subject is same, so I hope for forgivenes.

Hi Paul,

I've got question about legatos - are you planning to make legato walkhthrough video? Because this is one thing that is bit hard to grasp. Seems simple, but is complex ;) Few patches, but many legato types, different vibratos etc. For me basic connection between notes is far from what I would like to get without tweaking. But manipulating attack and release during every transition is against that promise:

"With Synchron Strings I, we have achieved the ultimate in realism and expressiveness, while providing a new level of ease-of-use.

Play short notes, long notes with various attacks, legatos, scalable vibrato intensities and note repetitions with a minimal need to switch articulations, and by moving just one or two preconfigured controllers."

I've heard Herb's demo and it is very technical, at some points wow (how to achieve part from 1:37 - that repeating structure, awesome!), but at some a bit... too technical, not very musical. And it ommits fast melody lines. So, any walkhthrough on the horizon? :)

Originally Posted by: Eptesicus

Something funky going on in the cello's G3 (and therefore F# as these are clearly only sampled per tone) at high velocity on the longs. Sounds like a dogyd or loud re-bow?

Yeah, I heard that too and my first though was bad loop, but it may as well be noisy re-bow... Doesn't sound fun though. In general those low cellos seem to be noisy

... and it means I bought them. Actually I was unconvinced until Paul cello video. And I'm not going to lie - for now I only like them. Why no love?

CONS: holy f**k, 60 gigs per section!? I expected big library, but this is waaay too big. I think that reasonable thing to do would be per mic download, so that I could download only down-mixed samples for example. Or maybe option 16 vs 24 bit (I assume that it is the latter now).

The second thing - I don't hear that biggnes. I mean, I'm not sure why it is so huge. Yes, I know, lots of layers, mics etc. but still it seems to be a bit too big. What is hidden there? Synchron player is going to show us those treasures? Or it's big, because? Violins short, 9 layers, 49 sampled notes, 10 variations = 4400 samples. VI states 5832. Releases? Ok, I'm done with that hate, time for good ;)

PROS: With SSD and default preload at 1536 RAM is not a problem at all (one mic less than 500megs?). The playability is magic. You can clearly feel those 8 - 9 layers. Fluent change without crossfades - YES!

Lyrical vibrato = <3.

Harsh shorts  

Overall sound signature - wet, but clean and detailed, can be lush, can be harsh

And now I'm waiting for the rest of sections and synchron player. Although my SSD is crying, I hear him sobbing...

Originally Posted by: Paul

With a Preload size of 8192 Samples, you will need around 10 GB of RAM for the FULL Libtrary / 1st Violins. 

With a Preload size of 8192 Samples, you will need around 5 GB of RAM for the FULL Libtrary / 1st Violins. 

So one mic = about 1.25 gigs. Hmm. One more question then - close mic. I'm not going to lie, I'm not a recording expert and I'm not sure if I understand what mono means there. Is this mic usable per se and can be compared to, for example, silent stage recordings?

Second on RAM question! How much should we've got? Can we work with Synchron with 8 GB as requirements site says? Or maybe without 32 it will be far from fun?

I hope everyone who acquired the earliest of early birds will be satisfied with VSL reconciliation treatment :)

And with that optimistic thought I'd like to dive into details. RAM! How much RAM whole Synchron Strings will be needing? Does Synchron player will have some RAM saving feature? Direct from SSD streaming or things like that? I have only 16GB... If you are doing something like that please share that info, this would probably make me buy vouchers ;)

Thanks in advance for any info in that matter.