Thanks, Dietz! And sorry for the confusion. I guess we can close this thread now. I really thought that the "new" numbers should be used with the Scoring mode, or at least that drier sound gave me the impression. :D

But VSL should take off the table for the "new" Natural Volumes in order to avoid further confusion, and publish the "right" ones we found in MIR Pro. These are different values. Or what is the point behind the table? This question is still unanswered.

I know Dietz already answered several times, but I only want some more clarification to ensure that I'm not talking nonsense. ;)

I figured out the following:

• The "old" Natural Volumes have to be used in the "Classical" mode. The MIRx settings are done in this mode and this automatically requires less wetness in order to get the same result as with the "Scoring" mode. But this mode always sounds like mid microphones with a bit of ambience.
• The "new" Natural Volumes have to be used in the "Scoring" mode. I really think that this should be the common mode. Because I never understood the classical one. It interferes with the underlying concept of having a main microphone with spots mixed in. The scoring mode takes this into account and therefore you are able to increase the wetness and get the right orchestral balance in terms of volume and distance.

The MIRx settings are great, but sound like mid microphones. You have to use them in "Scoring" mode with more global wetness (30-40%) and the new volumes. And with this you will see that, for example, the horns have to be more further back.

Am I correct with these observations?

Oh, and I hope we get lyrical legatos for all of the instruments in the future. ;) In my opinion they would be even better with some progressive vibrato as an alternative. But please the progression not too slow as in the espressivo patches. 

Not a big fan of ensemble libraries in general, but this one is a great sketching library with a very good quality sound. The audio demos sound extremely good and "polished" (in a positive way).

The new lyrical legatos are beautiful. Are these really new recordings? Curious to me they sound like the VI Flute, Clarinet, Oboe and Trumpet in C. No big difference to me in terms of expression and playability, it's just a "wet" recording in a bigger room. On the other hand, it shows and proves the VI recordings have been top-notch since then.

I want to know some more information on the mixes. They continue the way it was introduced with Duality Strings. This is no critique, I much prefer the new mixes. Only the compressors do more harm than good in my opinion. I disable them all. And I also don't understand why the room mixes get panned. But hey? If it sounds good, it is good, right? But I also get rid of all these pannings. I want a natural sound as recorded. In several threads here and at VI-control I was talking about the close/mid microphones and I never understood why these were narrowed (powerpanned). So my thinking was right all the time? What is the reason behind this new mixing approach? The close microphones are not narrowed (powerpanned), but balance panned.

I also like the new mixer preset structure. Instead of hundred different ones, only three. I was never happy with the current ones in the Synchron libraries, because all have different settings, even across the same instrument family. What I would like to see in the future is one "classical" preset with unified settings for the tree and the room mics. And without any processing or more additional panning as needed.

Originally Posted by: Bastiaan

As far as I can tell this was never a problem when using the Vienna Key, and almost makes me think the SY player "phones home" to check for licenses (or similar), which takes longer becuase its all in the cloud now.

I also have the slow response for quite some time and thought it has been since the arrival of the Vienna Assistant. Don't know if this has something to do with the cloud, I don't use it at all. The sluggishness is really annoying, hope it can be fixed. The older versions of the Synchron Player didn't have this issue.

I also have the feeling that the plugin "phones home" in some way, because every time I open the Synchron Harp player in Logic the Vienna Assistant icon shortly pops up in the dock (macOS).

OK, here it goes again... ;)

I've done intensive and time-consuming testing and compared with all the Synchron libraries. I finally come to the conclusion (and that's what I already said in my first post) that the "new" Natural Volumes that are posted in the MIR Pro 3D manual are correct.

I mean what is the point of posting different values in the manual when they are supposedly wrong? This table has a reason, and the values in MIR Pro are simply not correct. 

Please add these to the venue presets!

Thanks, Paul!

But I don't fully understand if it's okay to use 64 on the compression (as said in my previous post). Do I lose dynamics? What does "compress" and "expand" mean? Sorry for the dumb question, I simply don't understand what happens unter the hood.

Maybe it's better to leave everything as default. :D But I really like it when the (formerly named) Dynamic Range was set at 60-80.

Bernd, thank you very much!

I understand that it's impossible to satisfy all customers, and therefore you have created so much different ones.

I already lowered the close mics and always thought that it's not the same sound as in the Prime Edition... maybe just imagination. :D I really much prefer and enjoy the Prime mixes with just one mid/close mic. They sound good.

With the new Synchron Player update we now have an additional Dynamic Range, the older one was renamed Dynamic Compression.

I really hoped we now could go to niente (as in the VIPro Player). May I assume that it's not possible? Would also be nice to have some clarification on both controllers. I don't know what these do. There is a short explanation in the Synchron Player, but it doesn't help.

Thanks, Beat.

I know about making my own presets, and I already invested a lot of time, but never achieved the sound I'm after. The only presets I like (as said earlier) are the ones in the Prime edition.

Would be nice if someone from VSL could answer my question. I also have an additional one:

The Room Mix consists of decca tree, surrounds and other room microphones. In the Stereo to Surround presets these room microphones have a delay of 21ms each.
The Room Mix also has 21ms. I'm wondering if the microphones which are mixed into the Room Mix also have a delay unter the hood. Or are these microphones without delay and only the final Room Mix has this delay? Hope it's clear what I mean.

I really like the mixer presets in the Prime Edition as opposed to the bigger libraries. I think it's because they only use one close microphone. In my opinion, in the bigger libraries the focus is too much on the close ones.

Example: Solo instruments, e.g. the flute, only have the close microphone in the Prime Edition, in Synchron Woodwinds it has close + mid. 

I would like to know if the room mixes in the Prime Edition are the same as in the bigger libraries? Or do they have the mids mixed in?

May I also ask if we could get the same exact mixer presets in the bigger libraries?

In the Synchron libraries (especially brass and strings) the main microphones are balance panned to push the instruments more to the left or right. This panning is only applied to the decca tree LR and the room mix (see attached screenshot).

I'm wondering if this could be done in MIR Pro and how? I could put the instruments more to the left or right, but it doesn't sound the same to me. I also experimented with the volumes of the LR capsules and their dry/wet relations.

I have never paid much attention to the Dynamic Range slider in the Synchron Player. Decreasing the value to 64 is night and day for me, both for playability and sound. It's crazy! The standard value sounds more "smooth", but it's more "washy" to me. With the decreased value I hear more separation between the dynamics layers.

My question: Is there a reason not to use 64? Do I lose dynamic layers? If so what are my other options, e.g. changing my modwheel response curve?

I hope not. I really prefer the current setting, because now the forte dynamic layers kicks in earlier with my modwheel (foot pedal), and resembles more the playability of the VI series and my other libraries. At least that's my impression.

I also have this issue with Elite Strings and Strings Pro. It needs to be fixed! Already reported this several times and it couldn't be replicated. It's extremely annoying. Once triggered, this "phasing" sound stays until the Synchron Player plugin is reset.

It happens with all the legato vibrato x-fade patches (senza, regular, molto). I mainly use both dynamic and vibrato crossfade with CC1, because I use the same combination in my other libraries. Only Synchron can't handle this. This "phasing" sound occurs especially when x-fading on lower CC values.

Maybe because of the time alignment of the samples, the delay setting in the Synchron player... or maybe because there is only one set of legato transitions (namely with vibrato) and this is used for the other sustains, too.

My workaround this far:
Let's say I use the regular <> molto vibrato, I select the molto patch and change the attack in the ADSR settings just a little bit.

I also think that the mapping is wrong... I never liked the agile legatos and thought that something sounded very off, but haven't figured out what exactly. And to be honest: Sorry, Paul, but just neglecting the agile legatos and use the normal ones instead... if this new recording approach isn't good or just was a try, than offer us an alternative. At the current state the patches are useless when playing everything under maj 3rds. The VI instruments had excellent fast and trill legatos.

Would be nice to have some clarification from VSL! Maybe the normal legatos have some issues, too ... For example, the new lyrical legato of the solo horns (which I dislike at all) has similar "problems" with certain intervals. And it's, maybe, because of the same reason, i.e. recording scales instead of dedicated landing notes.

If the Synchron legatos and agile legatos are captured with this new approach, by playing scales, I don't think that this is good at all. The VI legatos had dedicated landing notes. I know it's very tedious to record and edit, but sounds way more real and is the best proof why the VI instruments still excel in this regard. This is just a guess here, because I don't know how the normal Synchron legatos were recorded.

Addendum:

Hm... I don't really know what I should think of these legatos. I find it extremely difficult to get a smooth result. Very bumpy sometimes and the loudnesses jump here and there (that's nearly Spitfire Audio level). I tried the all time favourites like "Princess Leia" or "Jurassic Park". Impossible for me. They sound better with the normal legatos.

Maybe I'm too dumb to use these patches. I have the same "problem" with the normal legatos across the board. Sometimes I have the feeling that the transitions don't get loaded or triggered properly.

Have you changed something? In my opinion, it's not as smooth as the VI instruments. You have to extremely overlap the notes and, to my feeling, play in a duration or fashion or something (I don't know exactly) to "imitate" the same emotion the horn player played during recording. If this is your new approach to legatos, I don't like it at all. Not a big fan of this. :(

And the sound of the transitions is sometimes very "processed" or "synthy" (I don't have a better word), like if the sample has been stretched. That's a thing in all of the Synchron libraries to be honest. Maybe it's because of the microphones and processing you used. The VI instruments legatos don't have this sound aesthetic.

I would also highly recommend a render function like in VI Pro. Never understood how this new stretch feature should be used in realtime in terms of performance. Can't work. *shaking head*

I guess it's very complicated with the multiple microphones. You would have to stay with this exact setup when using the rendered patch.

I would rather appreciate a mic merge feature like in the SINE player. That would be great.

Sorry! I mean the dB settings for threshold and gain. Gain is overall almost the same, but the threshold changes. And from these "values" I thought it could be related to the natural volumes. It's really a noob question, because I have no experience with compressors at all.

I have some questions on the room mixes in the Prime Edition or bigger Synchron libraries.

• Which microphones are used for the mixes and what volume levels? Can they be compared to the "Wide Surround to Stereo" mixes?
• Is the room mix identical for each instrument?

I really love the new presets manager in MIR 3D and especially the one for the Synchron Stage.

Three questions:

• Is there a way to duplicate a complete Vienna Standards preset with all instruments included? Haven't found a way to do it.
• Is there a way to have multiple microphone arrangements in one user preset for quick A/B testing. At the moment I have to duplicate the whole preset.
• I don't like the behaviour that the presets list is closed/collapsed when I close and re-open the manager window again.

Bump!

I know, you guys at VSL don't talk about future releases, but the integration of Interval Map was on the agenda some very long time ago. Would be nice to hear something. Maybe it's really too complicated with the dimension trees? I mean you could add something like a "mini" module which is nested in one of the dimensions and then opens in another window (something like an "expert" mode and maybe looks exactly like Interval Map in VI Pro) where you can change the patches.

In the meantime I have made a small detour (see the attached screenshot).

I have made a preset with legatos and shorts which are triggered by velocity. On higher velocities (around 80) I play shorts and on lower ones I trigger legato. It's by far not the best option, but at least I can have shorts and longs in one patch. It's limited, because I can't control the shorts with velocity.

My dream scenario goes even further and that's currently not possible. I know, I know it's very complex, but it can absolutely be achieved with a clever combination of dimensions. The only thing missing is an option to choose only the "starting note" and "playing intervals/legato" (as with Interval Map).

I want something like this:

[Dimension Controller 1: Interval Map]
Starting Note: Sustain with altered, longer attack curve ----------> [Dimension Controller 2: Velocity]
Intervals (definable time threshold): Legato ----------> [Maybe: Normal Legato < > Fast Legato]

[Dimension Controller 2: Velocity]
Staccato ----------> [Dimension Controller 3: Speed]
Portato ----------> [Dimension Controller 3: Speed]

[Dimension Controller 3: Speed]
Staccato Bold < > Staccato Agile
Portato Bold < > Portato Agile

The presets are really handy for guys like me who don't have engineering experience. But unfortunately there are some instruments missing, e.g. Dimension Brass (only trumpets available).

I'm wondering where to start on my own... What does these values indicate? Only looking at the numbers I could think that these have something to do with the natural volumes or maybe the distance the instruments were recorded at.

Hi Andreas, 

Hm... you probably changed something in my account. :D Now it works without problems. Very curious.

Happy Holidays, too!

Awesome...! Need new glasses. :P

---

Dietz, I have another thing and didn't want to start a new thread:

I wanted to separate the dry and wet component in VE Pro. It works for one instrument, but if I add more there are cracks and other sounds. Is this normal? Actually I know how to do this and it worked in previous versions. At the moment it only works if I do it for each instrument separately, but I want this for strings, brass and woodwinds as a section.

Yes, that's true. At the moment I hesitated to add new capsules or the ambisonics order, because I have absolutely no clues where to start. :)