Mat, did you try the Synchron Pianos on M1?
I bought an intel MacBook Pro 16, 64GB Ram, i9 and 2TB storage, only to find that no DAW on Mac will recognised my MAYA44 eX PCIe interface, housed in a Startech TB3 chassis. It wouldn’t let me adjust my buffer to get under 10ms which I wanted as a a pianist. It forces Core Audio driver over any other. I also had sluggish/unusable Cubase 10 Pro perform until I upgraded to 11.
M1 under Rosetta didn’t load ANY Native Instruments hosts/instruments as of a couple of weeks back. Been with Apple 3 years but returned it and now happier with a Dell XPS with 4TB NVMe running Synchron pianos (with my external thunderbolt card) at between 2-5ms and on an i7-8750H.
I’m interested to know the performance of M1 chips with VSL. Especially VEPro.

Martin,

Thanks for the insights. As a VSL Software Developer, could you tell us if you will be/you are currently working on VSL software and libraries etc for the new silicon Macs?

If I decide to purchase an Intel MacBook Pro 16 for instance, and that has silicon CPU, will that mean current software will still work with that ARM based Mac? Or will we have to wait until you / various other developers are ready for making their software compatible with silicon Macs?
If we have to wait then it might be better to get an Intel Mac at the moment.

Forgive my lack of knowledge about the engineering side of things :)

Thanks for the information Ben.

Hi, thanks for the reply.

Yes, that makes sense as I also noticed that Logic Pro X samples are downloaded straight to the hard drive of Macs and I guess if Apple thought it would be better to put it on an external drive, they would have mentioned it. So other libraries should also be fine internally. I have 1TB internal but for now am using a 1TB Samsung EVO, housed in a Thunderbolt 3 chassis and connected via Thunderbolt 3 too. Read: 2380 MB/s Write: 980 MB/s. The write speed is much slower for some reason. Anyway it's enough. When I need more space, I'll just put a larger SSD in the chassis.

I've read that only partial amounts of a given sample gets loaded into RAM and the remaining portion is streamed from the storage. Is that accurate? If that's the case, does that apply to SSDs too?

Hi, is there a benefit for housing a dedicated sample library NVMe SSD drive in an external Thunderbolt 3 chassis vs having the sample library housed in an internal SSD drive which is also the OS drive, such as in a modern MacBook Pro?

I know about the old days where housing the libraries on a mechanical spinning HDD were best done externally from the OS/application drive. Is there still a benefit in separating things?

People who I speak to seem to just say they carry on housing the libraries on a separate drive, even though they know about the experience being great from an internal SSD. Seems like a bit of a habit rather than rational reason. Please explain the mechanics behind the reasoning unless it's just the same principle of having read/write taken care off by one system and the read of sample libraries being on a separate drive. Is there really that much impact these days with super fast NVMe's?

P.S. I know MBP isn't the best machine to use as a master nor host as it's not as powerful as desktops, but I'm lucky enough to have a 64GB Ram 16" MBP with 1TB storage and honestly, the performance is great, even using VSL instruments as plugins (everything in the box) rather than using my server PC and VE Pro7 as a server.

Thanks.

Andrew, as you've seen from the replies, you can do that with one system. You can even get a PCIe audio interface which slots into your computer build and will give excellent low latency performance. So can keep everything in one 'box' so to speak. Unless I'm mistaken, the PCIe audio card will perform better than the latest Thunderbolt 3 interfaces, as it's directly plugged into your motherboard.

Exactly! I built a i9-9900K 64GB RAM NVMe drives etc for around half the price of a ready-made PC. I didn't know anything about building them either. I good idea for an absolute beginner is to buy a bundle which normally comes with a CPU, CPU cooling fan pre-installed on the motherboard. Then you'll need a PSU, Chassis (which might come with other fans attached too).

Sadly, I rushed things and after building this, I then bought a high spec MacBook Pro 16 inch to be my master, to the PC Server, but have realised that the MBP can handle my big templates alone, so am wondering what to do with the PC build at the moment.

Hi Ben,

It's interesting that it would degrade performance a bit. Is that because the CPU would need to communicate with the GPU, adding perhaps latency, rather than dealing with everything in-house within the CPU itself?

Thanks.

 

Hi, PC server to Mac DAW is my set up. PC only has the integrated Intel graphics onboard the CPU (i9-9900K).

Would adding a dedicated GPU improve it's CPU efficiency by offloading the graphics work to the GPU? Although Mac is my DAW OS, I also have the VE Pro 7 mixer on up on the PC's separate monitor open, while using my Mac for the DAW.

Thanks for any advice/answers.

Surprised you've not had a reply yet. I was considering the new Mac mini route as my server computer, as I've got a spare 32GB 260 Pin ram stick which I don't use for anything. I also wanted a small unit rather than a PC tower.

However, I decided to build a mini PC (ITX), house it in a small aluminium chassis, put an Apple sticker on the front (because I'm such a Fan Boy) and made myself a a nice server PC. I too prefer MacOS but if you use a PC for hosting samples and VE Pro, then you don't need to interact with the PC much. (I know what you mean about Vista lol, but Windows 10 is pretty good). Use a Mac as the DAW computer.

My mini PC for server:

CPU: i9-9900K (haven't overclocked yet, but might do)

RAM: 64GB at 3000Mhz

1 TB SSD (NVMe)

256GB SSD (NVMe)...a bit random, but I had space to put a spare SSD inside so did.

1 TB SSD (SATA)

I use a Caldigit Ethernet to Thunderbolt converter, since my m ITX motherboard doesn't have Thunderbolt 3. You can get one by ASRock I believe, which does have TB3.

With a PC server, you can upgrade your RAM and CPU anytime.

Be good to know what you decided to do.

Just to follow up: LuCsa seems to be correct here. I overclocked and although my speed went up, I noticed that the main thing that made a difference was the RAM frequency speed. It was set to a lower value than what the RAM modules were advertised as. So I chose XMP 1 from the BIOS setup and now my frequency is 3000Mhz, as it should be, instead of 2133Mhz.

This seems to have lightened the load on my CPU. Instead of hitting 90% on dense/tutti passages in playback, it is hovering around the 75% mark with no drop-outs/crackles etc with 256 buffer sample size at 6-7ms latency.

I'm happy :)

 

Apologies for replying to an old thread but I'm not sure I agree with that. I just went from 3.6Ghz to 4.72Ghz by overclocking and the playback of a large orchestral score using Synchronized Special Editions within VEPro 7 + MIR plugins etc now playback without any pops/crackles with 256 Buffer. It was stuttering before the overclock. I also adjusted the BIOS to reflect the 3000Mhz, as it was showing 2133Mhz for some reason, having installed the Corsair RAM modules with DDR4 3000Mhz.

Do you think it's the RAM speed making the difference? The CPU usage percentage went down after the overclock. Not loads, but noticeable. Unless the RAM tweak is lightening the CPU load?

Hi Jason,

That's good to know, glad you shared that information as I am learning about computer builds having recently entered the world of building a PC as my VE Pro server computer.

Hi Benjamin,

I have recently used a MBP 16" Master with iMac Slave/Server. I will tell you the positives before the negatives which lead me to return the MBP and sell my iMac...

It's really easy to set up a MBP with the iMac via both Ethernet or Thunderbolt 3. It's really easy to get set up with VE Pro, Cubase and my main software, Sibelius. (Mostly) no need for moving files so that they are ready to use as plugins with DAWs, it all seems to work straight away.

The screens are great and the tech feels and looks stylish. The 16" MBP screen is nice for Cubase. A tiny bit of added screen space is a good thing. However, I nearly always foudn myself connecting my Master to an external monitor. Better for scoring in Sibelius and productivity.

Negatives...

Every time Apple decide to release updates there's a risk of issues with any of your non-Apple-made software. Cubase, Sibelius, VE Pro, VM1 etc. Because they need to do updates to their software to ensure it works smothly with major (and sometimes minor) updates that seem to appear suddenly from Apple. That is frustrating and renders some Apps unsuable/unstable a few times per year. Maybe not for long, but it's still a frustration.

I know you don't mention Sibelius, but in recent months I never had a session whereby it didn't crash. Constantly. Wasting time and energy. For some reason devices wouldn't show up or would in the Sibelius Playback configs, depending on...who knows what? Apple staff, music tech staff at my university or beyond, had no idea why as we were following instructions and recommendations. The university have all Apple iMacs in the studios, but these are not recent machines and it may be that older models were more stable.

I've wasted around £2000 in the last 3 or 4 years as a Mac user. Because when projects get larger or new demanding software/libraries etc are released, you'll find that you'd love to be able to slot more RAM in your MBP or upgrade your CPU in your iMac. None of these options are available for consumers (yes you can upgrade the CPU in a recent iMac but you need to get a professional to do it as you could break the screen or even electrocute yourself). So I ended up re-selling MacBook Pros. Because I made the mistake of thinking I would be fine with a slightly limited machine or trade-offs (e.g. going for a higher CPU and small SSD drive - then regretting getting the small drive). If you're willing to pay a huge amount of money for top spec Mac and be willing to put up with instability or frustration by updates or mystery errors, then you will be ok for using your hardware for a reasonable amount of time before needing to upgrade. Apparently Apple are spending more resources on their iPhones and iPads than computers (speculation perhaps, but I think they've also disbanded a team that was specifically dedicated to computer lines).

The better keyboard on MBP 16 is true, but I found the issues in the previous MBPs to be exaggerated by YouTubers or the general public. I never had problems with the MBP 13" or 15" 2018 models and only found the keybaord to be slightly better to feel and use on the new MBP 16.

The Thunderbolt 3 feature is often mentioned as a reason for Mac, but I found absolutely no benefit in using it over Ethernet Master Server set up. Maybe I was doing something wrong. But I don't think so.

The screens on Macs are praised, but I am now using a Dell XPS with OLED 4K resolution, so if I need to do music to synch with film, it's better to view on this machine and I don't think it's a reason to go for Mac products. Technology outside of Apple has suprised me. There are some really cool non-Apple products out there and I've been in a sort of Apple bubble, not seeing what else is around.

I understand about not wanting to go back to Windows, having got used to the Mac world, as I was the same after only 3 years. But I am so happy that I decided to do it. Windows is NOT as bad as Mac users sometimes say. Yes, there are some intitial frustrations and it takes longer to set up (with moving files to be found within DAW to use as plugins etc) and you need to set up the Ethernet network manually. But this is done once. And remains in place. No major OS updates or otherwise, to throw the setup into instability or waiting for developers to apply fixes etc to Apple updates. I'm actually enjoying Windows and the experience. It's more customise-able.

I just realised I haven't really mentioned the costs. Maybe because it is so obvious. With roughly the price of a MBP i9/64GB RAM/1TB SSD I have built a PC from a gaming motherboard kit (ROG Strix) which is an i9 with 64GB (can install 128GB if I need) and 5TB SSD with room for more; AND I got a Dell XPS and installed 64GB very easily and can easily upgrade the 1TB SSD NVMe it comes with to 2TB with Samsung 970 Pro SSD which is faster than the MBP's SSD, unless I'm mistaken. I am good with hunting for deals but both machines were roughly around the same price as a MBP 16 spec as you mention.

Not a negative, but wanted to mention that I didn't find the MBP getting any hotter than the Dell XPS I am using. Both do get quite hot when used intensively.

Also, it's not worth getting a MBP for the added inch with a 16" if you are scoring for large orchestra. Might be fine for small ensembles though.

What did you decide in the end?

I am sure many will counter my arguements but this is just my own experience from a former Apple Fan-Boy :-)

Hi, my desktop PC (i9-9900K; 64GB RAM) has trouble when scores are very thick/dense in Sibelius but is fine playing the exact same passages in Cubase.

In Sibelius, CPU hits around 80-90% with about 15-18 Synchronized Special Editions instruments playing together/tutti, with MIR Pro, EQ, Compressor on each. RAM used is not much, around 12GB. I've set Synchron Player to load more in the RAM and set threads to max 16 for Synchron Player and VE Pro 7.

1024 Buffer which is more than what I'd prefer.

With the exact same passages played in Cubase it has no trouble. Hitting around 40-60%.

Why is it fine in Cubase but struggling in Sibelius? 

I use a master computer to work within Sibelius and Cubase (i7-9750H; 64GB RAM) which uses about 7-12% CPU and very little RAM.

Connected with Ethernet.

Hi, I'm surprised that your main system is straining with 128GB RAM. I'm very interested to know what solution you find.

On its own, my i9 with 64GB handles around 25-30 Synchron Special Editions instruments playing back together, with peaks around 80% CPU usage at extremely dense/tutti passages. As a server to the master, those same passages are down to around 40-60%.

I wonder if it will be a lot more with adding NI/other sample library instruments running in Kontakt via VE Pro will add a lot more strain. Perhaps.

Quick update: I tried this today and had no issues with using the Boot Camp iMac as the master, runing Sibelius on it's 7200RPM HDD. Playing back around 20-25 instruments in tutti passages with latency of around 7ms was certainly ok for me! :) CPU usage was low as well as RAM percentage. Will post more details at some point. VE Pro 7 server system hitting around CPU 40-60% and RAM pretty low usage too around those thickly orchestrated bars.

[EDIT] I thought I should add that I am running each instrument with compressors, EQ and MIR Pro, so that must add to the workload of the systems too. Load times of Sibelius is very quick despite the 7200 HDD. I will upgrade it to SSD in the future but it doesn't seem worth the hassle at the moment.

Hi, are there performance issues with running Sibelius or Cubase/any applications from a mechanical 7200 RPM drive, even with having a separate slave/server computer running VEP & samples?

Thinking of making my 27 inch iMac the master (i5-8500; 32GB RAM) but running Windows in Boot Camp as I now prefer Windows and use that on my other machines. However, it's got a Fusion Drive, which means that Apple have built-in their OS to run off the tiny SDD portion and lumps Windows on the slow mechanical based HDD. That HDD runs at just 170 mb/s.

My server/slave machine is self-built: i9-9900K; 64GB RAM; SDD (SATA) 550 mb/s (although I will upgrade that to a NVme 3000 mb/s at some point). Running VE Pro 7; MIR Pro; mainly Synchron-ized Special Editions.

Hi Lupine,

Yes. I had a MBP 15 2018, i7 8th Gen, 32GB RAM. Lovely machine. But...I sometimes got clicks and pops too, with using around 25 - 35 Special Editions instruments (not the Synchron player new Special Editions) and some other libraries together, such as LASS Lite. So not too heavy for it. But still, some issues. I had to up the buffer as 128/256 weren't always stable and still gave me good low latency times.

I would have thought it would have been able to handle all that without any issues at all. To be fair, it did most of the time. But I never felt I got my value for what I paid for it. I since learnt from others here and in general, that laptops aren't great at managing heavier orchestral workloads, even high spec ones. After 3 years of Apple, I realised that I'm paying over the top for an equivalent PC/Windows system and have always been more comfortable with Windows (conversly to most I'd expect).

Anyway, laptops just don't seem powerful enough in comparison to desktop builds unfortunately. So I've just finished building my first PC from using a i9 CPU pre-installed gaming motherbord, adding my own RAM and SSD parts. It works much better. I may get a laptop to use away from the desk or to share the load as I have 2 VEP 7 licenses or even within a master/slave setup. The next laptop it will be one where I can install more RAM and SSD storage in myself later on. Not a MacBook basically.

I did hear about the T2 chip causing issues. I can't remember what it was though. Are there specific T2 chip issues going on with music software?