Stephen,

Thanks again for taking the time!  All your advice is extremely helpful and I will definitely take it into account as I continue to experiment and practice.

Sincerely,

- Sam

I'll continue to breath :)  Should you record the venue, count me in as a customer.

- Sam

Originally Posted by: jasensmith

Depends on the size of the ensemble.  If it's, say a string quartet or quintet, then I won't quantize anything.  Also, I'm a pianist by training so anything I do on the piano is never quantized.  But if it's a large ensemble piece like a 100 piece orchestra then yes I quantize because even slight rhythm inconsistancies will be amplified and the human ear will detect it.  It's the fluctuations in tempo, like slowing down slightly at the end of melody line which players do naturally, that make the piece sound more natrual.

Good to know, thank you.  Notes taken, knowledge absorbed.

- Sam

Originally Posted by: stephen limbaugh

So, this kind of gets into personal philosophy about programming.  Personally, I view the computer and MIDI controller as an instrument to be technically mastered.  The ultimate proficiency should be a guy like Daniel Barenboim, a guy who can conduct/rehearse a top orchestra and also sit down and play the entire Beethoven piano sonata cycle.  Except in the case of "programming" your "conducting" is laying out the session and your performing is your fingers on the keyboards and mod wheel.

I like that philosophy; it jives with my own evolving view that the DAW and all these tools/plugins can be considered modular parts of a giant, complex musical instrument...an "imagination realizer", if you will :)

Originally Posted by: stephen limbaugh

1. The most important thing is the RHYTHM of the passage.  If you can get the feel of the gesture, but miss most of the notes, just go in and arrow up or down the notes to the correct pitches.
2. Think about which notes of a gesture should be emphasized.  If it's a scale, generally it's last note, especially if it ends on a strong beat.  Adjust the velocities of velocity cross-fade so there's a little crescendo in there.
3. Use two hands and go back and ride the velocity cross fade in a second pass.
4. If you are using VI Pro, search through some of the pre-made scales in the APP Sequencer.  Often times you can adjust the notes in the sequencer and it still sound really convincing.
5. If there is a percussive hit at the end of the run from other instruments, edit the midi so that everyone is playing really close together!

Solid gold.  Thank you for taking the time to help me out.  #1 is especially useful; it makes a lot of sense to capture the human rhythmic feel live above all else as other factors (velocity, expression, pitch, etc.) can be easily altered after the fact.

Another thought occured to me: it may be useful, in cases where semi-strict rhythmic to strict rhythmic accuracy is needed during difficult passages, to briefly turn the grid on - not to snap or quantize to, but to use as a visual guide to subtly adjust potentially sloppy live playing.  Once adjusted, the grid could be turned off and the entire phrase can then be moved around freely and fit to the rest of the music by ear.  Something to experiment with, certainly...

One more question for you, if I may.  You mention velocity crossfading.  I know there are differing opinions on this, but I'd like to hear yours: do you recommend tying Expression and Velocity X-Fade together on one controller, doing one OR the other, or just using Velocity X-Fade to modulate dynamics?  I know that the timbral shift that occurs in Brass and Winds during crescendos and what not is not simply "raising the volume", but there are noticable jumps in between velocity layers for certain instruments, especially the solo VI libs.  Any recommendations here?

Thanks again!

- Sam

Very good food for thought, Dewdman.  Thanks so much for taking the time to explain all of that to me!  I think you just saved me a lot of frustration and trial-and-error in the coming years.  I'll keep all that in mind as I experiment and practice MIDI sequencing.

Cheers!

- Sam

Originally Posted by: Headlands

Originally Posted by: Seventh Sam

Also, there's a little obscure pair of settings that might be the culprit of Bus 2 and beyond are not working.  Do the following:

- Open the Ensemble Pro Server FX window in REAPER.  Make sure you are using the VST3i version of the Ensemble Pro Plugin.  As far as I'm aware, Ports/Buses beyond #1 won't work in REAPER unless it's VST3 (this might have been fixed in REAPER 6).

- Click on the button in the top right part of the window that says something like "2/64" out.  It will open a window with a grid.

- On that new window, click the small button that says I/O, again in the top right.  You'll get a drop down menu.

- In that menu, you need to change a few settings.  They are:

• Midi Input -> Map REAPER MIDI Buses to VST3 MIDI Buses
• Midi Output -> Map VST3 MIDI Buses to REAPER MIDI Buses

Make sure both those are checked.  Once they are, Buses 2 and up will interact correctly with Ensemble Pro, allowing you to have 256 separate instruments in a single Ensemble Pro instance.  Yay!

THAT was it - I had forgotten about that. Thank you again good sir.

No worries.  I guess the trade off for REAPER's flexibility is the interface is a little...unintuitive :)

I recommend saving those settings into a track template so you never have to deal with it again.

- Sam

Originally Posted by: jasensmith

Originally Posted by: Seventh Sam

Hey all, A question for anyone with an answer: When sequencing orchestral type music using VSL (or any other VST's, for that matter), do you stay on the grid and let the computer "conduct" the orchestra (using tempo mapping to create rhythmic fluidity) or do you un-snap from the grid, ignore quantization completely and play the lines in yourself, using your own sense of rhythm to "conduct" the orchestra? .

Yes. All the above. I play most of my compositions on my keyboard then end up going back and quantizing most of what I played. Back in the day, you used to have to play sloppily then automate the tempo, then slightly fiddle with the tuning using a wide variety of articulations to try and achieve a natural sounding performance. Nowadays I still fluctuate the tempo but thanks to the miracles of VSL humanization and repetition performances those other processes can be automated and randomized. If you have VI Pro you can use the humanization feature in conjunction with the bigger full size libraries to automate much of what we did back in the day manually. If you don't have VI Pro then you'll have to do everything manually which can be quite laborious and painstaking.

I do have VI Pro, so no worries there.  You mention that you don't always quantize.  When you do, is it to correct errors in your playing or to keep everything in a strict rhythm?  When you play, are you consciously emulating the fluid rhythm inherent in orchestral conducting or are you playing with the idea that you're going to quantize to a strict grid at the end of the day?

Originally Posted by: Dewdman42

I'm not sure there is one right way to answer this.  For orchestral mockups, a lot of samples have inconsistent amounts of latency, this is in order to capture the full sample attack, which for some instruments, especially strings, are kind of slow.  So sometimes people will move their notes ahead of the grid in order to compensate for that.  But that is a laborious and painstaking process.  Other people may using scripting in the DAW to adjust for that.

Humanization is another reason perhaps to avoid the grid, but there are other more efficient means to provide timing humanization. 

I myself prefer to have my notes on the grid and find other ways to dynamically add humanization, as well as latency adjustment for inconsistent attack transients.  It makes my midi editing about 1000 times easier to deal with.

Opinions may differ.

When you mention latency discrepancies, are you referring to actual errors in the sample start times or the musical differences in attack and timing inherent in certain articulations? (i.e. a fast, quick spiccato vs. a languishing crescendo)

Originally Posted by: stephen limbaugh

Personally, I'm a big proponent of performing off the grid.  A lot of orchestral music is about making a gesture or crafting a phrase, and so being locked into a grid can make things too rhythmically precise.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_7gfkDDZEo

The exception is if there is a drum groove and I need to write something fast.

That video is actually what prompted this question!  Thanks again for making it.

Do you ever run into situations where you want to score, say, an ultra fast and complex run that is too hard to simply play in on a keyboard and, since everything is off the grid, you end up spending way too much time fussing with individual notes to get it to sit right with the unquantized rhythm?  I would be concerned about that kind of thing with a pure off-the-grid approach (I'm not extremely proficient at piano nor is my MIDI controller very, eh, ergonomic).

Originally Posted by: Acclarion

To the VSL community:

Just wanted to wish everyone Happy Holidays and all the best for 2020!  

Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas

Cheers!

Dave and Becky

Right back at ya.

Also, I think something's wrong with your fireplace...it doesn't seem to be moving...

- Sam

I happened upon a strange bug/quirk:

If I have the Synchron Player window open in my DAW (REAPER 6), playback (live or otherwise) cuts out at regular intervals as if there is a huge bottleneck in sample streaming or something like that.  I've tweaked the various engine settings in both REAPER and Synchron Player as well as tried different libraries and the problem persists regardless.

However, when I close the Synchron Player window, playback streams and buffers just fine, as it should.  

It's not a deal-breaking bug, but it's quite a workflow killer to be unable to tweak settings in the Synchron Player while noodling on the keyboard or playing a looped section back without it cutting out every second or so.

I should note that this does not happen when Synchron Player is loaded in Ensemble Pro.  This leads me to believe it's a bug of some kind with the plug-in's interface.

Any thoughts?

- Sam

Also, there's a little obscure pair of settings that might be the culprit of Bus 2 and beyond are not working.  Do the following:

- Open the Ensemble Pro Server FX window in REAPER.  Make sure you are using the VST3i version of the Ensemble Pro Plugin.  As far as I'm aware, Ports/Buses beyond #1 won't work in REAPER unless it's VST3 (this might have been fixed in REAPER 6).

- Click on the button in the top right part of the window that says something like "2/64" out.  It will open a window with a grid.

- On that new window, click the small button that says I/O, again in the top right.  You'll get a drop down menu.

- In that menu, you need to change a few settings.  They are:

• Midi Input -> Map REAPER MIDI Buses to VST3 MIDI Buses
• Midi Output -> Map VST3 MIDI Buses to REAPER MIDI Buses

Make sure both those are checked.  Once they are, Buses 2 and up will interact correctly with Ensemble Pro, allowing you to have 256 separate instruments in a single Ensemble Pro instance.  Yay!

Originally Posted by: Headlands

One question: I'm able to get this to work perfectly for the first port in VE Pro (which is Strings in my template), but I can't get any MIDI going to the second port (Brass in my template). I tried MIDI bus 2 and bus 1, with no luck. Is there something I might be missing? 

Make sure the following settings match, as pictured:

https://imgur.com/x57kq5Z

Essentially:

When using MIDI Bus/Port #1, the following settings should be made:

In REAPER's Send configuration window:

MIDI: [All] and [Channel #]

In Ensemble Pro:

Port: 1 Channel: [Channel #]

Once you want to expand beyond 16 instances and use Bus/Port #2 and beyond, REAPER's syntax gets a little confusing.  I'll use examples:

Let's say you want the track to receive MIDI data on Bus #2, Channel 12.

- Set REAPER's Send configuration for that track to:

MIDI [All] -> [Bus 2, 2/12]

- Then, set Ensemble Pro's settings to:

Port: 2 Channel: 12

Hopefully that clears it up and fixes your problem!

- Sam

...you wouldn't, by any chance, happen to be creating a MIR Pro venue for the B Stage of Synchron (where the Bleuthner and Bosendorfer upright were recorded), would you?...

...pretty please, with a cherry on top?...

Originally Posted by: stephen limbaugh

Originally Posted by: Bill

I'm surprised this is such a low priority....

Dietz must be prioritizing his paying gigs. ;)

But for what it is worth, I also am very excited to have a MIRx for Synchron.

Me too.  Can't wait!

Hey all,

A question for anyone with an answer:

When sequencing orchestral type music using VSL (or any other VST's, for that matter), do you stay on the grid and let the computer "conduct" the orchestra (using tempo mapping to create rhythmic fluidity) or do you un-snap from the grid, ignore quantization completely and play the lines in yourself, using your own sense of rhythm to "conduct" the orchestra?

I've read pros and cons for both approaches, but only in various articles.  I will, of course, try both approaches myself and experiment, but many on these forums create great sounding music and I'd love to hear individual opinions/experiences from those more fluent than I in MIDIstration.

Thank you, Beat.  This is very helpful to me as I have quite a lot to learn!

- Sam

Originally Posted by: cjul

This is fantastic! Thanks for your hard work in putting these together. Much appreciated!

You're welcome.  I hope it helps you as much as it's helping me!

Originally Posted by: Headlands

Originally Posted by: Seventh Sam

When this happens to me, the two main culprits are:

1) I forgot to turn on "Input Monitoring" in the track itself (not the one with the Ensemble Pro Server plugin, but the track that's actually inputing MIDI and receiving audio back).  Depending on the theme you're using, you can find this in the TCP (Track Control Panel) or Mixer.

2) The Expression or Volume CC (11 and 7, respectively) are accidentally turned down for that particular instance of VI or Synchron Player.  I can't tell you how many times I've tweaked CC envelopes, forgot I had done so, and then freaked out thinking the audio wasn't working when the reality is that Expression was just set at 0 the whole time!

Does one of those two fix your problem?

- Sam

Yes, expression and volume CC are always ghosts in the closet, hahaha.

Thanks for the help!

It was total rookie routing error, it turns out...years on Cubase and getting used to Reaper. :-)

Most welcome :)  Let me know if there's anything else you need.

Also, I tend to be a bit of a broken record on this, but check this out:

https://reaticulate.com/

This articulation management system (for REAPER) - if you like its workflow - will save you HOURS of time diddling with keyswitches.

- Sam

EDIT:

This post I made might be of use to you as well:

https://www.vsl.co.at/community/posts/m290245-For-REAPER-users--Articulation-Management-System-for-all-Strings--Woodwind-and-Brass-VI-Libraries#post290245

Originally Posted by: Headlands

Thank you so much for this, Sam.

I'm new to Reaper after many years on Cubase and can't figure one thing out with your routing: Everything looks good but I can't figure out why I'm not hearing audio from any of the MIDI tracks. I'm seeing audio (colored red) on them, just not hearing it. I'm sure it's a stupid mistake but I just can't figure it out.

When this happens to me, the two main culprits are:

1) I forgot to turn on "Input Monitoring" in the track itself (not the one with the Ensemble Pro Server plugin, but the track that's actually inputing MIDI and receiving audio back).  Depending on the theme you're using, you can find this in the TCP (Track Control Panel) or Mixer.

2) The Expression or Volume CC (11 and 7, respectively) are accidentally turned down for that particular instance of VI or Synchron Player.  I can't tell you how many times I've tweaked CC envelopes, forgot I had done so, and then freaked out thinking the audio wasn't working when the reality is that Expression was just set at 0 the whole time!

Does one of those two fix your problem?

- Sam

Valuable advice.  Thank you so much for posting this!

David,

First of all, this piece of music is really, really good.  I mean, *really* good.  9:30-9:50 especially caught my attention; something about it gave me goosebumps.  It's not just the wry portamentos; those are all over the place in this piece.  There's something very simple and elegant about most of this.  It flows like a calming stream in an idyllic forest.

Second, I'd like to offer you what might be a unique (and hopefully uplifting perspective) in regards to the following point you made:

Originally Posted by: Acclarion

It has always been the domain of the "cultural elite" and this infuriates me, as there is no reason classical music can't appeal to anyone, as long as it's part of the formative development of children.

I'm a young buck (early millenial) who grew up on an infrequent diet of thumpy electronica, thrashing metal, and whatever poppy, punk-esque nonsense was playing at the skatepark I used to frequent (I used to skateboard a lot).  I was never exposed in an inclusive or educational way to classical, jazz, or more intellectually demanding/rewarding forms of music during my formative years.  All I knew is that it was what the band kids did, and I'd rather be jumping down stairs on a piece of wood with wheels.

So, many years later, when I first started diddling with piano and happened to listen to Bach, I was surprised to find that I loved it!  Same with Beethoven, Bartok, Chopin, Debussy, Gershwin, Ellington, etc.  Music that is supposed to be "artsy", "pretentious", "inaccessible" - I found that I couldn't (and still can't) get enough of!  You would think that a silly millenial with no music education or musical family (my mother and father are tone-deaf...frustratingly) would be completely averse to all this, but here I am!

I've puzzled over why this is, and I believe the reason is that I was never *told* what music was supposed to be and what I was supposed to like.  Or maybe I was and I just stubbornly ignored it.  I didn't have the practical benefit of music education (something I'm diligently trying to rectify), but I also didn't receive all the "shoulds" and "expectations" that I have since learned come with the multitude of music scenes and industries.  In other words, I discovered Music with a capital M in an innocent vacuum of child-like curiousity - even in adulthood when such things are not supposed to be possible - and I would have it no other way because listening to music fills me with a genuine, untouchable happiness that is hard to express.

My point is: yes, early exposure and education are crucial to allowing this kind of music to flourish in the minds of future generations and live on, but equally important, I think, is the *freedom* for said future generations to explore and discover the music on their own terms, sans expectations, pressures, and social implications of genre, style, etc. 

Or maybe I'm just an anomaly that has something in his DNA that says, "This dude will like Fugues no matter what!"  However, I know for a fact that, when I listened to your piece, I didn't hear "art music" or "pretentious" or "classical" or anything like that - I just heard music, and it was good, and I liked it, and I'm going to listen to it again now because I liked it :)  And, for me, that's all that really matters. 

Hopefully, one day, the general public will adopt the same outlook! 

- Sam

As promised, here's all Strings, Brass, and Woodwinds in addition to SYN-zed Dim. Strings and Brass:

https://www.vsl.co.at/community/posts/t53083-For-REAPER-users--Articulation-Management-System-for-all-Strings--Woodwind-and-Brass-VI-Libraries#post287931

As promised, here's all Strings, Brass, and Woodwinds in addition to SYN-zed Dim. Strings and Brass:

https://www.vsl.co.at/community/posts/t53083-For-REAPER-users--Articulation-Management-System-for-all-Strings--Woodwind-and-Brass-VI-Libraries#post287931

Hello REAPER users,

I have created a comprehensive set of articulation lists and presets for use with all String, Brass, and Woodwind Libraries as well as the SYN-zed Dimension Strings and Brass (all volumes).  

For those unfamiliar with Reaticulate, it's a brilliant little script that turns the Program Change function into a macro that can send up to 16 different MIDI commands with one click.  In this case, it sends 2-4 keyswitches to select from the hundreds of different articulations available, all visually and intuitively available on a dockable list.  For more information on Reaticulate, visit http://reaticulate.com/

I've attached a RAR file with:

1) The presets for both VI and Synchron Player that you will need to use

2) A text file with the Reaticulate reabank data that you will need to copy and paste into your Reaticulate.reabank file in order to use the script with the appropriate presets.

Once all files are in place, simply start up Reaticulate, match the preset with the correct bank (i.e. Violin I with the Violin I bank) and you're good to go!  This set-up is meant for detailed after-the-fact programming rather than live-playing.  While that may seem a disadvantage, this system makes it stupidly easy to access nearly every articulation an instrument has to offer from the *same* list, all organized and color-coded, with a single click - no multiple-keyswitches, no messing about with multiple faders, etc.  Just step-input the program change and the articulation will take effect - very similar to expression mapping.  Reaticulate will even chase keyswitches, so no need to rewind every time you want to play a passage!

Rather than type out a detailed tutorial on how to set this up, I'm going to assume that if you use Reaticulate you just want the files and you know how to plug it all in.  In case you don't, please don't hesitate to contact me and I'd be more than happy to give you more detailed instructions!

HOW I'VE ORGANIZED THE ARTICULATION LISTS:

There is one Core Articulation list, containing 8 essential articulations that every VI instrument shares (perf_leg, staccato, etc.)  This bank can be used in conjunction with *any* of the VI presets, allowing you to quickly sketch out basic figures and swap instruments out until you want to make a final decision.

The rest of the VI articulation lists are comprehensive, containing 90-100% of the articulations included in the full library of that instrument.  The articulations are organized as follows:

1. At the top of the list are all the bread-and-butter articulations (legatos, performance reps, sfz's, etc.) that are common to all instruments.  These are the articulations you're most likely to use often, so they are at the top to minimize scrolling.
2. There are "Slots" for tempo-dependent articulations like Crescendos/Decrescendos/Swells, Fast Reps, Upbeat Reps (for brass).  Since including all of these would unnecessarily clutter the list up, these articulations instead correspond to empty slots in matrixes that you can load the relevant patch into as needed by the piece you're working on.
3. Finally, there are instrument specific articulations at the bottom (Glissandos, Grace Notes, etc.) that are used less often or are very context-dependent.

I've left out certain types of articulations such as Scale Runs, Mordents, etc. because I personally find the performance interval patches to be more useful than pre-recorded phrases.  However, if you would like to include these, contact me and I'd be happy to let you know how to modify the reabank file to work with matrixes of your own design (assuming you don't know already).

WHAT EXACTLY IS INCLUDED IN THIS RAR FILE?

Articulations and Presets for the following:

STRINGS (Full Libraries): Solo I & II, Chamber I & II, Orchestral I & II, Appassionata I & II, Violin II, Cello II

BRASS (Full Libraries): Trumpet C, Trumpet C (Mute), Trumpet Bb, Trumpet Bb (Mute), Cornet, Piccolo Trumpet, Bass Trumpet, Flugelhorn, Euphonium, Triple Horn, Viennese Horn, Tenor Trombone, Tenor Trombone (Mute A), Tenor Trombone (Mute B), Alto Trombone, Bass Trombone, Contrabass Trombone, Tuba, Contrabass Tuba, Wagner Tuba, Cimbasso, Horn Ensemble, Epic Horns, Trombone Ensemble, Trombone Ensemble (Muted), Trumpet Ensemble, Trumpet Ensemble (Muted), Fanfare Trumpets

WOODWINDS: Flute I, Flute II, Alto Flute, Piccolo, Bass Flute, Oboe I, Oboe II, Oboe d'Amore, English Horn I, English Horn II, Heckelphone, Clarinet I, Clarinet II, Clarinet Eb, Bass Clarinet, Contrabass Clarinet, Basset Horn, Bassoon I, Bassoon II, Contrabassoon, Alto Sax, Tenor Sax, Baritone Sax, Flute Ensemble, Oboe Ensemble, Clarinet Ensemble, Bassoon Ensemble

SYNCHRON: SYN-zed Dimension Strings all volumes, SYN-zed Dimension Brass all volumes.

Enjoy!