Originally Posted by: LAJ

Maybe you all should take a break from VSL tonight ... BTW I saw on their Website that the „friends from England“ are releasing tonight! And even if this new product should be no gamechanger it is (hopefully) worth a look/listening.

Break!

Yup, so many great things coming out from many developers these days. We are spoiled.

Originally Posted by: fahl5

Originally Posted by: Simon Ravn

Let me get this straight. You don't post all of those "recordings" of yours to get critique? Why do you do it then? If you don't want responses from your posts, then they are just spam. Choose.

It is kind of striking, that you obvikously cant imagine that a productive musicians like many who post their music here just want to share what they are doing with the great VSL-Products just to pay a productive tribute to the great VSL company and inspire one another all who work with VSL. 

Fahl, I hate to break it to you, but you are posting your mock-ups/renderings-of-existing-music-composed-by-real-composers here, in the Synchron SAMPLE LIBRARY forum. This is not the "Show me your music for inspirational purposes" forum. This is VSL's sample library forum for discussing Synchron libraries, those that you are using for your renderings. So whether you like it or not, obviously your renderings are subject to critique when posted here.

Let me get this straight. You don't post all of those "recordings" of yours to get critique? Why do you do it then? If you don't want responses from your posts, then they are just spam. Choose.

Allegreo alquanto:

Piano sounds pretty good, if a bit undynamic and mechanical in places. (1:40 e.g.).

Strings are lacking stereo field, I think this is mainly a reverb issue - the reverb is very bad and 1-dimensional, so it doesn't spread out the material in the stereo field very well.

Strings also lack some EQ, especially violins sound pretty harsh in places. And they lack air. Violas generally sound weird but that one I will attribute to the sound of Sychron.

Sarabande grave:

Timpani sounds like it was recorded in a bed room, lacking any sense of space and scope. Generally all string lines sound very mechanical.

The solo violin sounds like it was recorded 300 meters away from the rest of the orchestra, lacking any air and frankly sounds horrible - hardly qualifying for sounding like a solo string. Needs to be placed and EQ'ed totally different, but that probably won't save the sound and bad legato that seems inherint to it (note, I don't own the solo strings so I can't really comment on how they COULD sound), but who knows.

Piano sounds pretty good again.

The little percussion there is also sounds (like timpani) too close and without any sense of space.

Violins at 3:30 onwards... wow.... sounds very mechanical, MIDI-like with no expression or feel whatsoever. This can be said about most of the legato strings actually.

Again violas sound metallic, mono-like and strange. Sounds like something out of a 1980's GM-synth. To some degree the same goes for cellos mostly.

Finale allegro:

Percussion again needs to be placed further away, snare drums sound like they are right next to you. Cellos and basses in the beginning sound decent enough, but violas coming in and violins playing without any expression or musicality in them again ruins it. They are also just abrubtly cut off in many places before proceeding to the next phrase.

Again the solo violin sounds almost like a joke. Is it a violin morphed with a soprano singer and a theremin or what?

Basically the same criticism as with the two first pieces apply: Lots of shortcomings in mix + MIDI execution.

Piano is the positive highlight again. Strings are a low. I certainly think they can be bettered with the right craftmanship and knowledge about how to get the best out of samples applied to them, but I also think they show their inherent shortcomings.

Originally Posted by: fahl5

Originally Posted by: Simon Ravn

fatis12, It is just a classic case of "wanna be artist turned analyzer", like magazine music reviewers who were not good enough thus turned into critics.

Just think about Fatis perhaps Ravn has exactly found out your problem.

Hi Ravn,

Any News from 2018 you can provide that might show us, that this is not your problem to? (seems as if you havent updated your website in the last time that much)

Just to remind: a musician is someone who makes music as you can see in my case for instance

Sorry, my priority is not updating my website.

fatis12, give fahl a break. It is just a classic case of "wanna be artist turned analyzer", like magazine music reviewers who were not good enough to become composers, thus turned into critics. So don't blame him for his lack of skills when he churns out these endless "recordings". At least it keeps him busy and off the streets where he could be much more harmful.

Really nice, Guy! Haven't used those strings for a loooong time but they still hold up pretty well, and that semi-dark, very expressive tone fits this piece perfectly. Love the piano too btw - is this VSL's Imperial or....?

Originally Posted by: LAJ

b) ... to reprimand someone for his English language skills. It is not the first time that this happens. We are all encouraged to speak English here - no matter where we come from. And I remember that one guy from China did not dare to write here for years because he thougt his Englisch was too bad.

All of this is completely unnecessary.

You are right, and I won't and have never criticized anyone for his/her English skills before. I am also a novice and that department as English is not my first language and I haven't actually lived in UK/US or anything like that where I would be able to vastly improve my skills there. The difference is that fahl tries so hard writing academic and complicated stuff and that does not work well when you don't master basic English skills. And had he been humble and frank about this (or anything) I would never had taken that road. The language barrier is just an extra contributing factor to the confusion and frustration present in everything fahl touches here.

Originally Posted by: fahl5

Fatis, what excactly is your problem. I asked you polite and unmistakeable clear what you have meant with using a term no one else used before for synchronized Libraries, and instead straight forward ansawering you are trying to prove exactly what in several threads all over this forum?. To finally find out, that what you are trying to convince me is what I already posted weeks ago? What means all your discussion was perhaps just completly sensless based on what ever assumption what I in your opinionthink or do not think. Why didnt you just answered my question?

I do understand Paul to get tired from that kind of behavior.

You do know that Paul is tired of YOU, right? Of course you do, it's just yet another way you twist things and play victim.

You are so busy telling everybody how POLITE you are, while at the same time, you write one tiresome reply after another, arrogantly telling everybody how wrong they are, always ignoring anything they actually bring to the table - then you change the subject and tell people that they should be nice and POLITE like you and discuss the subject matter. ANYTHING that doesn't go exactly like your head you dismiss and ignore to make everything be about what YOU think it should be about. And then you lie about your intentions, playing the victim, saying how misunderstood you are and how wrong we all are. True psychopathic character behaviour, really.

And actually it seems most of the time YOU don't even know what you really want out of all your questions and writing. You certainly don't want other - more knowledgable people than yourself - to write valauble replies to your questions. Like when Dietz answered regarding MIR and mics, you also arrogantly just evaded/dismissed his answers, until you found out that he actually is much brigther than you, one of the brains behind VSL, and actually creates something of importance to many people in the world.

You should really get your head out of your ass. And now we are at it, try to stick to pre-school English, because your lack of skills in that department also often adds to the confusion and paints a picture of someone who thinks all his fancy degrees are the only thing he clinges to when trying to write in academic terms that just don't work when you don't master simple English grammar and syntax to begin with.

Originally Posted by: fahl5

Originally Posted by: ZWaves

Today, Spitfire Audio anounced their 'new' direction (which has been crafted for the last two years now...)

Spitfire Studio Strings!

Their poster reads as follows:

"An incredibly versatile pro-end dry stage sample library - giving you total control."

I just found that First Recording  a user made with the new SSS  (and VSL Winds to me the most convincing part in this piece). I do not want to imagine how sharp the "synth" complains must have been if he posted something like that here ;-)

You're reaching, Fail. There has been a ton of negative response (also people calling it synthy) regarding the new Spitfire strings library, including from me. People are not biased against VSL at VI Control's forum. VI is an independent forum, that's the difference. Here the userbase is largely biased towards VSL. And this is VSL's own forum, so why wouldn't they be? If Spitfire had a forum, I am sure it would be mainly SF fans that posted there.

Originally Posted by: William

I haven't checked out the Zimmer strings so I shouldn't have said that.  I will check them out.   I really appreciate Simon Raven's input, as he is a brilliant composer and performer. 

William, I read the comment as coming from a "Zimmer opposer". I used to not be a big fan of Zimmer and his music many years ago, but I have learnt that he is not just an "orchestral pop song writer" I can dismiss as inferior and non-worthy. That he is actually one of (if not the one) Hollywoods most visionary and innovative composers, always striving to come up with a new, suitable musical universe for his movies. That isn't what I think he did in the 90's, but sometimes (often) you are also just hired to do a job, and you don't get much saying in musical style. So seeing where he has taken his scores in the 00's and onwards I can't blame him.

He is not a typical classical composer like John Williams, which I think is an absolute genius, I guess that here, John Williams is scoffed at as well, so let's just for arguments sake choose say that Zimmer is no Dvorak, Beethoven or Sibelius either - or if those guys are too mainstream too, pick any obscure, genius composer you want. Zimmer is something different, but that doesn't make his talent less. It is just different. Sound and sound design is at least as important in his scores as the compositions. 

Anyway, a lot could be said on that topic. But just to clarify what Zimmer Strings is, and the visionary man behind it (together with the SF gang of course). That this was not meant as a classical string library. Why on earth would you do 60 cellos ensemble if that was the point!

I regard it as yet another great tool at my disposal, that I have hardly had any use for yet though. But hopefully some project will call for it as it has a special sound and organic feeling to it, especially the non-typical articulations. The standard staccatos/sustains are a bit hit and miss I think - some are useful, some are not.

Originally Posted by: fahl5

Originally Posted by: William

"Hans Zimmer strings"  

That is a sickening concept.

Yes it is. And even more important a pretty clumsy sedate reacting result of this concept.

I think they (spitfire) have learned a least a bit from the often not very friendly reactions.

Just because you don't understand something, doesn't mean you have to talk like you do, Fahl.

I don't think Zimmer Strings was a failure. Not financially, not artistically. It is a very special library with a special sound that obviously isn't meant for classical/normal orchestral work. Hence the special articulation set present in it as well. It is for hybrid/experimental stuff, something I doubt you understand or have any insight in.

I am sure there are good reasons why (several) of their newer releases don't use their own new sample player. They could have been in development even before Zimmer Strings was, or they need features that their own sample player doesn't have yet and would take long to incorporate (this could be GUI related also). Also their own engine is only a single instrument player (for now). They could quite possibly be waiting for it to be finished as multi instrument player before they make anything advanced use it.

Originally Posted by: JimmyHellfire

And there you have it, kids. This kind of revolutionary insight is exactly why this forum needs fahl5. Use the modwheel. It seems such a far-fetched idea, but given the obvious, audible rigor and dilligence that goes into the sculpting of convincing and emotive virtual perfomance in his own works, who would ever doubt it?

Haha :) Yeah... I also chuckled quite a bit reading Fahl's response. Actually, I think my eyes took several 360 degrees rotations too. Words just don't suffice here.

I agree with Fatis. This demo isn't too bad, but also not so hard to pull off by any library. It doesn't show agility, legato or expression in a very typical setting. Not dissing the style of music demoed - I am all for it, I like it, but it is really an example of showing the library from its very best side, without much change in expression, only using very long notes etc.

... and fahl5, stop sending me PMs. Not gonna read or respond to them.

Originally Posted by: fahl5

Still one question: You kept your completely offtopic and aggressive personal insinuation against me for exactly what constructive reason?

I am not gonna feed you - call your mum.

Originally Posted by: fahl5

Originally Posted by: Simon Ravn

Wow, Steffen, you really don't have any worklife do you. Way too much time on your hands obviously. You really should get a job. Or maybe go back and stare proudly at your degree diploma and render some more useless classical pieces. Your presence here is just getting more and more embarrassing.

Bravo another splendid example of "constructive criticism and appreciation to synchron" this is so full of topic related pure facts and so free of ugly and aggressive personal insinuations, that I understand, that you are the one who really can help to make this world a better place. Wow!

I actually added to the post just after posting. But of course you are hovering over this like a hawk. But there you have it: My constructive criticism.

Wow, Steffen, you really don't have any worklife do you. Way too much time on your hands obviously. You really should get a job. Or maybe go back and stare proudly at your degree diploma and render some more useless classical pieces. Your presence here is just getting more and more embarrassing.

What VSL should do to "improve" SyS is frankly re-record 80% of it. But they could do it at 40-50% of the time spent on the original and get a much better library.

They should:

- Record fewer dynamic layers. Half as many would do, the proof is in SyS that all those layers don't pay off.

- Record fewer different vibrato types. Non-vib and "espressivo" would be enough. Nobody likes the standard vibrato in the library it seems. Also, you don't need to do as many non-vib dynamic layers as you do vibrato. 3 nonvib, 4-5 vib would be plenty enough.

- Record less precise staccatos. And do both staccatos and spiccatos for better flexibility.

- Rehearse a little music with the musicians before recording the samples. And tell them to carry that into the samples as good as they can and not care about being too perfect, but more being musical. A little coaching should help on the sound, get more life into the samples.

- Then there is the sound. That is a tough one. The room sounds like it does I guess. But there are quite some ugly resonance going on. Don't remember exactly where but typically you get problems in the lower mid-mid end from 500-1200hz. Violins generally have some harsh stuff going on at 1500+3500hz but that's managable with EQ so I wouldn't focus on that. I would see if the room needs treatment to handle the lower frequencies.

That could be a "Synchron Strings - reworked". Still a huge undertaking but would take less than 50% of the time of the original library to do. That is the only way SyS will have a chance to become a great string library; doing re-recordings. Sorry, no way around it. And that probably won't happen - not for the next 5 years+. They might decide to go back and record another string library, but I am sure they won't spend so many resources to re-do and fix SyS 1.

Originally Posted by: William

It actually has nothing to do with music anymore. 

On a totally irrelevant note I wanted to say hello to Simon Raven and how much I have liked his music when I had the chance to hear it various places on the internet.  Really great demos but also memorable purely as music. 

 

O.K., sorry to interrupt the hostility and insults.  I'll get out of the way.   

Thanks, William :)

Originally Posted by: fahl5

Originally Posted by: JimmyHellfire

When you can't write music and your mockups of existing works of actual musicians sound like Orchestron, I guess puffing up on forums and harassing strangers is all you got left.

Ok its always courageous if you talk so frankly and public about your own problems as musician you presumably want to be.

*rolls eyes*

Originally Posted by: fahl5

Dear Fabio,

This topic is called " How to improve Synchron Strings I?"

Do not disgrrace your self with simply ignoring that.

I can see why you don't like this thread turning into a Steffen Fahl bash fest. But trying to reverse it acting like a policeman in here will not make you feel better. So why not just ignore the plethora of anti-Steffen posts and stick to posting about the subject matter.

Originally Posted by: fatis12_24918

Originally Posted by: fahl5

Originally Posted by: kamil

Ffahl5 ... Ik denk niet dat er reden is voor dit debat.

Google translate 😜.


"I do not think there is any reason for this debate to be so."
With my all respect to you all.

Regards ,
Yasir

You are absolutly right

Dear Steffen,

So let us know about this curious fact: you wrote very often long philosophical explanation about your own interest, that is NOT realism, but some kind of ideal performance, and is NOT precise care for details, because you like rendering huge projects in very short time, and so of course you don’t have the material time of refining details at all.

This is pretty evident in your production, that is always very far from being any close to realistic, and always alternate some little good phrasing to long mechanic and midish sections. I don’t argue about your choice, you always point that you do it for your own fun, and it’s fair enough.

But actually, since your scope is just having fun producing low detail long ideal electronic renderings ( sounding more or less like old ringtones) then why do you pretend to discuss details about realism and sound, that you always say are out of scope for you, and they obviously are listening to your music?

There’s something weird every time you start arguing about sound, realism and precision, with people outperfoming you on sound, realism and precision. Just curiosity, before I follow William’s theory.

All the best, Fabio

+1, spot on. As is William.

Unfortunately I think only VSL can improve SyS - and that will require huge amounts of new recordings. Let's face it, it's not gonna happen. But hey, sometime in the future they will do another string library with the same "bread and butter" articulations and hopefully it will turn out better! Maybe even an upcoming sordino strings library will be performed with less attention to "perfection" and with a better working legato concept. Not holding my breath but I won't rule it out. And I think they are working on sordinos, right?

Not worth it.

Originally Posted by: fahl5

Originally Posted by: Guy Bacos

Fahl5, 2 totally unrelated things.

Thats why the one thing does not belong in a thread which is dedecated to a completly different subject. And it is nothing "arrogant" just to mention that fact.

Originally Posted by: Guy Bacos

One can easily express himself without sounding arrogant.

But obviously as many very passionate postings poor in arguemnts demonstrates:

It is again much easier to become personal insinuative, and slam someone who has just another opinion as "arrogant" and with "+1" and likewise completly meaninghless argunmentfree and substanceless comments , than to seriously answer concrete arguments. with concrete arguements as I have done.

Neither Simon nor Pixelpoet answered on any argument. That is sad, because it make their criticism appear being more or less emotion, without any concret intention to really improve anything at all.

Again I am very very interested to hear from someone who complains here at least one exsample where he just shows with concrete "results" how any of the nearly 20 peices I posted here made with Synchron Strings would be made any better with any other Library.

I don't have time to do a massive mockup like yours, but you should only have to look around on the different library producers websites and listen to demos. If you can't hear that a lot of that sounds way more realistic than what you have pulled off... well, then I don't think we'll get anywhere anyway.

Originally Posted by: Guy Bacos

Originally Posted by: Veola

I just cannot understand how people can say there is nothing wrong with this lib? Don't you compare to other libs or listen to recordings? Don't you want something new, improved or groundbreaking from a new lib?

@fahl5, I know that people can get lost in the programming and forget to use their ears and emotions to judge the whole piece. No offence, but you seem a bit like this, pushing as a many pieces through as possible.

Guy Bacos got some demos on the product page, BUT the ones that sound acceptable are the ones layered with other instruments. Its basically covering up the problems of the lib.

The Bee  (Not layered)

This is very nice Guy - the violin shorts work very well for this. Still in a real recording, there would be more intonation "problems" in the attacks, which would add more life and realism. They are too spot on. But the clarity is really amazing. On cellos and basses there is quite a bit of a machine gun effect going on. Probably because every recording is so "perfect". But it is not an easy thing to pull off by any library.