That sounds like you had the same professor!  

Yes, he gave me the feeling I could never even begin to exist next to an actual composer or musician.  I remember he said "Someone asks you what is the Grosse Fugue and you draw a blank!"  That was the ultimate insult.  Gee, thanks a lot Mr. Professor, for your encouragement in my studies. 

I say that now, because I realize he was a typical case of "professors" at universities - they are failures at music in all other venues, and strut around in front of students to feel superior. Something they can't do elsewhere.  But at the time I didn't know anything except I was trying to  compose, and that was the encouragement he was giving to students.  His name was Dr. Ron Williams, at University of Nevada, Reno.  

I have to say I had some wonderful professors though - Ted Puffer, a great musician who founded the Nevada Opera and was extremely kind and encouraging, as well as a brilliant conductor and responsible for a number of premieres of great European operas in America including Busoni's Faust.  He regularly did original English translations of previously untranslated operatic masterworks.  Also, John Lenz, a truly great musician who doubled on cello and horn, and was a virtuoso on both.  It's interesting how the finest musicians I met there were very friendly. It was the mediocrities like Dr. Ron Williams who were mean.

Speaking of the Batman score, I thought a brilliant thing about that was how Elfman transformed the main motif - which is somewhat similar to Herrmann's motif from Journey to the Center of the Earth. He developed it completely differently, and all the rest of the music was different. But it was a marvelous effect with the minor key motif C-D-E flat-A flat-G, that at the end becomes a major key motif, heard instead of starting on the tonic, starting on the major third.  That was an example of a subtle development that was far beyond those bad academic criticisms Elfman was getting.   

I read that exchange when it first came out years ago.  i was extremely annoyed by the professor, because he was so obviously assuming Elfman is just an ignoramus who can't possibly write good music due to never studying. That was right after the Batman score which is an all-time great film music score. 

The problem with that academic attitude is it's completely false, as having a real ability to conceive musical ideas that are interesting is the main thing in composition - NOT technical knowledge.  And Elfman's ideas are fantastically good.  His musical technique is something that is trivial and easy to learn, once someone like him has that talent.  

But all the snob professors, who are so great in their learning, can't even begin to write anything that anyone wants to hear after the one pathetic performance with their wretched little college orchestra.  Even though they know everything!  I was exposed to one of these professors. I even played at one of the those performances. He was bragging about how there were no mistakes in the player's parts.  But every time I went up to him at the University, naively trying to talk about composing, he made me feel like a bug. a nothing.  Because i didn't have all the academically approved knowledge he had.  But his music was completely dull and dead.

That is the exact same thing this twerp was trying to do with Elfman.  It is laughable now, as Elfman is world-famous as a film composer and this guy is - what?  

I know nobody will answer this...

Agitato, you are so right on that.  

Errikos, I also liked Brainstorm, before I heard the incredible list of total ripoffs Horner perpetrated. Not deliberately on my part, as I noted. Accidentally - just sitting innocently (relatively) in a theater.  But concerning Aliens - this was an incredible score! - yes!   

But not in quality - in shamelessness of ripping off.  At the climax, he actually steals from John Williams Star Wars. What? The sequence at the end where the Luke Skywalker is going into the Death Star. Same scoring.   Now that is shameless.  It's like, not only steal but steal from the most obvious source. So I guess he was encouraged by his reflection:  "They don't know all those classical composers! Hey! I wonder if I could steal from John Williams?  Ha-ha! Let's try!"  

I am trying to make my harp scoring more practical.  I realize that harp scoring is not like writing for a piano. Besides not being chromatic without pedal changes, another part of it is the sustaining notes.  On a slow piece of music, or in a large orchestral setting, this is not an issue as the harp just comes in and plays then is gone, or just sounds some slow notes that can ring or be damped easily. 

But I'm wondering about a chamber piece which is Allegro and has the harp playing a lot of harmonic/rhythmic  accompaniment.  On this piece, it occurs around 3:00 and after - a fast section that is easy enough to damp the hanging over notes with a piano, or the VSL MIDI harp ----  but i wonder if it would sound too smeared on a live harp performance.  

harp trio

I have to continue with my rant about James Horner.  These are plagiarisms I noticed NOT because I read about them on the internet, but noticed WATCHING THE FILMS.  i was just trying to watch some movie and bam!  wait a minute, that music sounds familiar!  Yeah, it's not only familiar it's an exact copy!  

Shostakovich, 5th Symphony, Adagio, Flute and Harp soli.  Stolen with the same exact orchestration and uncredited, for the really bad fantasy film The Sorceresses. 

Charles Ives, The Unanswered Question .  Stolen for the Main Title (!) of the also bad film C.H.U.D. a low grade horror film Horner scored.

Robert Schumann, 3rd Symphony First Movement, main theme. Stolen for the film Willow. Horner took everything from this theme and just added some fanfares  in the brass.  

He regularly lifted stuff for his scores, and all of it uncredited.  Why? Because it's classical music, which meant to him - it is free to steal.  

I have no idea of how many other things he stole - probably many.  These are only a few I  noticed because I was watching the films.  

This is in sharp distinction to the old-fashioned composers of yesteryear.  Many of them like Korngold were immigrants from Europe to America during World War Two and were basically classical composers who adapted what they did to film music. Max Steiner was another.  There is a basic structure to their music that was modeled upon the complex contrapuntal orchestral approach of Wagner.  

Nowadays the currently popular composers of film music don't even know what that is.  Not John Williams - he knows intimately the great composers.  But people like the current crop don't need to, because producers are equally clueless.   I'm sure some of the members of this Forum will say I am a pretentious pseudointellectual but it is undeniable that everything is being dumbed down to the lowest possible level.  

To me what matters is having an original style. Elfman really does.

And John Williams - who was a while ago criticized by pseudo-intellectual morons for "stealing" when in reality all his own themes are his own very distinctive sound - absorbs the many influences he is acutely aware of, being a vastly knowledgeable musician and supremely talented conductor as well as a great composer.  But they are all part of his own scores - unlike James Horner who deliberately, calculatingly and cynically stole completely and blatantly entire sections of music from classical works, including even the orchestration of such thefts. He was a shameless plagiarist, and an extremely mediocre composer who obviously needed to steal because he couldn't come up with anything of his own worth shit.  If you'd like a demonstration of that - listen to Star Trek by Goldsmith - one of the all-time great masterpieces of film music - and then the godawful trite garbage Horner wrote for Star Trek 2.  Endless augmented triad arpeggios that make one want to puke and a truly insipid, uninspired main theme.  Then more stealing from anything he could get his grubby mitts on.   A great film marred by a stupid score by a hack.  BTW his major (and expected) plagiarism in that particular film is Prokofieff's FILM SCORE (!) to Alexander Nevsky.  That is the Khan theme. Just check out both if you don 't believe it. 

John Williams is poles apart from that sort of low-life plagiarist, and is within the same area as other great composers who can't help being deeply influenced by the wonderful music they are profoundly aware of.   Williams loves the music he conducted regularly and yet his own is a new contribution that has his own signature style. 

Uh-oh - this turned into a rant about film score plagiarism!  How'd that happen?   

Elfman is an excellent composer and has done really great scores for various films.  I know very little about today's film  composers because I've found so many to be so bad they are like non- musicians. and painful to listen to.  But they are doing "music."  For films.  And you have to have your ears tortured by the godawful shit they produce, based upon total ignorance of all aspects of composition, similar symphonic/orchestral music, AND the entire history of film music -  which despite what many snobbish classical musicians might think -  is actually very respectable, with geniuses like Korngold - who was the superior of every concert composer in his time - Max Steiner, a brilliant immigrant composer to America, and Herrmann, probably the greatest of all, creating works that are - to be blunt - the best music produced in their time.  

There is no composer of concert music who did anything superior to Herrmann's Death Hunt from On Dangerous Ground in his time  Or even comparable. It has the total mastery of all elements of composition and orchestration that Tchaikovksy showed in the famed Scherzo to his Sixth Symphony.  Just listen to that composition if you don't believe me. It is so far beyond the requirements for the film that it's funny! Or listen to the Main Title to North by Northwest. Nobody composed anything better at that time.    Or like his Obsession score - music that is so far beyond the film a critic said "Herrmann's music would make blank film compelling."    

Elfman has created some truly memorable music for a large number of films, starting with his wonderfully atmospheric "Beetlejuice" score.  He is influenced by Herrmann, but he does not imitate him. He has his own style and is instantly recognizable. That is the most important thing - does one know who wrote this music when it starts?  In the case of Elfman, John Williams, Herrmann - one knows instantly  That is something unique and very difficult to achieve.  Another like that - Miklos Rosza. You know it couldn't be anyone else.  Or Morricone. Or Rota.  They are truly original composers and show how the real essence of composition in the 20th century shifted away from concert music to film scoring.  But now?  It's garbage, almost all of it.  Though to be a little Pollyanna, that is probably true of almost any time.   When one is in the time...

That is very useful and important to see, especially if using the Viennakonzerthaus MIR.  I have often wondered about the exact sizes of the rows, and this makes it clear. Also many of the instruments are farther back than expected.   It is really good to have this to compare  with the graphics of MIR.

Originally Posted by: jhonny.eriksson

I do not agree that the Synchron Series is a step forward. It's just different.

From my perspective, VI-series is what makes VSL unique, still to this day. Ever since the very beginning there have always been libraries that were recorded in some remarkable scoring stages and then marketed as "The Ultimate Film Scoring Library!". For many, many years VSL never fell into that trap and instead proved the VI-series to be the most detailed, versatile and flexible virtual instrument out there. It was not only for those with only film score in mind but also for everyone interested in orchestral music of different genres (not least, classical music).
I own them both and have different use cases for them, sometimes I mix them with great results.

However, if I had to pick I would always go with VI-series. I could replace the Synchron Series with other vendor products, but I could never replace the VI-superheros - there is just nothing like it.

Definitely!  I evolved a system using VI based first upon having underpowered computers (back in around 2005), which, if I was careful, I could tweak to use VI at full power, just with more intermediate steps. Now that computers are so much more powerful and cheaper, that is no longer an issue but all the simplified setups I made - which were simplified only in technical requirements, not musical which were huge - are still valid.

Many people first coming to VI or Synchron think that you have to have a Hans Zimmer 5 Billion dollar studio or whatever he has to use the samples properly.  But actually, you can use VI with the simplest set of selected articulations on a single humble computer and play something just as well as Zimmer ever did.  It is because of the methodical sampling style of VSL and extreme purity of recording which is uniform across all the VI instruments, and allows you to create templates very easily that transcribe across radically different instruments.   This versatility I have found in no other sample library though I've used a lot of them over the years.  It is the kind of versatility that the SYMPHONY ORCHESTRA has.  It is a sound bank that has yet to be matched by anything else..  

Macker,

That's a great review of the film and music, in that the cinematography as well as the music is so good. Milius was inspired by Kurosawa and it shows in that film, especially in the battle scenes.  Also it truly is one of those scores that is the best element of the film - another prominent example of that phenomenon is "Obsession" which though very vividly directed by Brian De Palma, had such a great score by Bernard Herrmann it is the outstanding element of the film.  It is one of Herrmann's greatest scores even though one of his last!   

Oddly enough I had almost the opposite reaction in that when I saw the film - when it first came out in the theater - I thought it was rather good and the music OK.  Though I kept remembering the music afterwards.  Years later it is clearly one of the outstanding film scores of all time, even one of those that are better than their films.  (Though the film is very good with some fantastic scenes directed by John Milius.) I obtained the complete score put out by Chris Siddall the son of Basil Polidouris and it is 300 pages long!  A massive amount of work with an amazing array of percussion, full choir and large orchestra. 

To me this seems like some of the best film music ever - it is  very complex rhythmically, in fact I couldn't figure out the  meter until I saw the score which constantly switches from 3/8 to 5/8 to 4/8 etc.  Also, it is a development of the later more lyrical theme, here presented in a more "primal" brass motif - 

Anvil of Crom

Some of this suite is actually  more positive and not so uniformly dark as I was trying to suggest the "ethereal" and fantasy-oriented stories also. Lovecraft is very similar to Poe in that even though they are both known for their horror stories, they were extremely inspired by Romantic conceptions of supernal beauty such as Poe's "Lenore" and Lovecraft's descriptions of wondrous cities discovered in dreams.  Also the White Ship which was imagined as a mysterious vessel appearing out of the fog that took passengers to mystical, unknown lands.  

Sorry to Errikos - I do understand the principle that  actual musical content is more significant than AI-assisted stuff. However the post example was bad as there was really no content. 

I edited this to say that the point being made is severely undercut by the example given.  The general idea is probably true.  Especially applied to using pre-made "orchestrations."   

I see that what you're talking about is "skill" as this person puts it. 

So what is "skill"?  Knowledge of how orchestration works?  OK, yes that is a kind of knowledge.  I guess I find this weird because of the example and library used...

Macker, I now understand your reassignment of the music to the video and think it is very creative.  I remember reading Cocteau would re-purpose various parts of George Auric's scores for his films, in ways completely different from the original purpose and yet with excellent effect. I can understand the return of Cthulhu in the courtroom though the original idea was my attempt at picturing Lovecraft's great story of the monster emerging from his ancient temple and pursuing the ship across the water until the captain realizes he cannot escape but must barrel into Cthulhu - thereby blowing him into smithereens (which nevertheless coalesce for later reanimation).  

thanks Macker, though I'm not clear on what was being combined with the music...

I completed a symphonic fantasy "Cthulhu,"  which is inspired by H. P. Lovecraft.  This performance is done with VI and MIR Vienna Konzerthaus.  It is scored for a slightly weird orchestra using only four flutes - c flute 1 and 2, alto flute and bass flute, serpent, ophicleide, brass,  Appassionata strings, percussion, solo voices and choir, and the Konzerthaus organ augmented by some discordant organ sounds.  Lovecraft wrote often of "amorphous idiot flute players"  (no offense to living flute players) and a "cracked organ" which I tried to represent.  It was just released so I'm not sure about these links but here are  a few - 

Apple music

youtube

Amazon

One thing that was always hyped as a feature of VI is how you can use it in any venue.  It doesn't have "baked in" reverb.  This is not just hype, it is an important feature. But now that has been forgotten apparently and now everyone wants "one-size-fits-all" reverb that is there from the beginning and can't be removed. Well, it doesn't fit me.  

The use of MIR along with VI allows you to place instruments into very different reverb/acoustic settings that you can't get normally.  Or you can use your own setup - like Lexicon hardware reverb, analog spring reverb - you name it!  This is huge for sample libraries and only the Silent Stage recorded VI instruments allow this.

That is why I think VSL should absolutely continue recording both VI and Synchron, even if it is difficult commercially. VI is distinguished from other sample libraries by this -  the Silent Stage approach that is PURE MUSIC PERFORMANCE undiluted by any acoustic environment.    

He created really powerful music - I still remember the intense resonant sound of the analog synthesizers he used on Blade Runner which I saw and heard in the theater when it first came out -  it had such timbral complexity and a "fat" immense sound that fit the huge visuals by Douglas Trumble brilliantly.  I would await each of his CD releases as an "event" because they were so vivid and beautiful.  He doesn't fit into the old style of great composers but is actually a new kind of greatness.  

One thing that is interesting - the original Blade Runner was composed and played entirely with analog synthesizers, and then - afterward - various orchestras tried to duplicate it.  But they didn't.  They couldn't match that sound.  That is a total turnaround from what used to be assumed about analog synthesizers.  It showed that they are a timbre and sound unto themselves.      

I agree with dewdman, and feel that VI is like primal musical samples that one must have.  In other words, you can have all kinds of software that is fancy and does things automatically, but if you want just pure musical sounds played by great musicians, in a silent stage that allows you to use it in any acoustic venue you want - VI is the ultimate. I have used many different sample libraries but the reason I keep coming back to VI is because it is so methodically created with regularly organized articulations among all the instruments, and adaptable to anything you might want to do acoustically.  It isn't locked into a single venue, or a single "spectacular" sound design effect, but rather it is based totally on what the symphony orchestra does -  the ensemble which evolved over centuries and is the ultimate musical expression.  It doesn't necessarily give you instant gratification, but neither does a real symphony orchestra - you have to use it and figure out how to do that.  And you can actually use VI the way an orchestrator for live orchestras uses them. 

This library after all was created by brilliant musicians and the man in charge of it is a great cellist from Viennese orchestras.  The company has always placed musical values first and the VI series shows that in a pure, intense form.   It has a truly lasting value - it is funny how I still use just as much now as twenty years ago (!)  the very first instruments they did - like the trombone, the horn, the C trumpet, the orchestral violins, etc.  And the later instruments were just as great. And with the addition of MIR which has the most simple-to-use but beautiful sound venues, it is even more powerful.  VI is essentially an endless resource for musical expression.