Jasen you're not rambling!  That's interesting - what you said about pop concerts is true and why the Beatles stopped performing them and went to only recording.  Sergeant Pepper's performed live?  That doesn't even make sense.   (Also, no one could hear the music over the screaming...)  But that album and all their other later ones were crafted as complete works of art, not just performances of the day.   

Now why did Glenn Gould go to only recordings? - that is a different story.  (Probably so his insane humming would be audible.)

That's almost exactly how I look at it.  I think with a performance you go to see "performing" whereas with a recording you are listening to "composition."  If you go to a good enough performance ou can hear those ideas it is true, but even then  it is more "performing" you are attending to.  For example, instead of thinking "what a great contrapuntal accompaniment in the cellos" you are thinking "wow, those cellists are so good."  

Probably the best live performance I've heard was the San Francisco symphony playing the Planets under Seiji Ozawa.  It was wonderful and beautiful, and fascinating to hear the complex sound being created right there on the stage.  But I have to admit I wasn't thinking as much about Holst's orchestration or listening to how good the composition was, as much as just enjoying what the players were demonstrating.  

Another example is how I have listened to Mahler's symphonies.  If you went to a concert it would be an ordeal - your butt would be hurting probably, you would be distracted by the audience many times, there woud almost inevitably be errors in even a great orchestra because the music is so hard to play.  Whereas, compare that to listeniing to Georg Solti conducting the Chicago Symphony in Mahler's 8th - the famous recording that has been called the greatest recorded performance of all time - on headphones in a dark bedroom.  No one else around.  Only you and Mahler's music.  That experience is like going on a musical journey, or even a musical dream.  And it comes totally from it being a recording.  

To think that a composer can do something similar with VSL is very exciting and inspiring. 

Those are some good points - what it boils down to is the interest or perspective of the audience.  Are they interested in seeing their favorite  performers do their thing, or are they interested in the musical ideas of the composer?  Obviously both, but sometimes I think it is almost entirely  focused on the performers.  The person who wants to watch Yo yo ma play scales is involved in hero-worship, not music.

But without wanting to be contrary I have to add that it has never happened to me that a live performance was better than I imagined the music, or surprised me.  I suppose that happens with a truly great orchestra (?) or having some big shot soloist play your music,  but I think the real situation is more that maybe the players can go so far as to reproduce - maybe - what the composer imagined.  On the other hand, out of tune playing or wrong notes or lack of expression have happened a lot and then the live performance DOES surprise me  -  disturbingly.  

And what you said about it being impossible for samples to surprise one - no, it has happened to me repeatedly.  In fact, what is hilarious is I had written off a number of pieces in my mind because I heard them played live and not very well.  I had concluded, well that piece isn't so great...  But when I later did a sample performance of it, I was not only surprised but SHOCKED - it was actually not bad at all!  and I heard the ideas I had imagined coming back at me instead of getting lost in the bad live version.  So that does happen with samples at least to me.  

This post by Dave is  so interesting concerning musical ideas.  This is dangerous - you should not encourage me.    I agree with Paul about things needing to be playable but also with Dave.  I was recently thinking some things about the greatest composers -  Bach, Haydn, Mozart specifically, though there are others - these composers have three things that you must have if you want to be as good as they are:

1 Genius

2 Utility

3 Productivity

In other words, they had great ideas, their ideas were usable by anyone, and they had a huge output.  Many people have one or two, but very few all three.  

What I mean by "huge  output"  can be seen with "Complete Bach Edition" or "Complete Haydn Edition" or "Complete Mozart Edition"  anywhere. It is mind-boggling to consider how much music was done by them on that level. 

I was also hoping Dave continued putting things on here as they are so good, also his ideas are very valuable.  

What that musician said is a good point asking what are you going to do - just sit and listen to a digital recording?  But I think the answer is of course not, the digital performance is part of the musical process just like a print-out of the score is, and hopefully a live performance followed by others if the piece is good enough to interest people.  One thing that is definitely a huge positive about digital performance is how the musical ideas can be heard clearly and expressively immediately after they are composed. That was never possible in the past.   People are getting more and more jaded and forget how amazing it is, compared to the past when even a great piece of music would often be literally unheard in any way for years, or longer.  For example Schubert's C Major symphony, one of the greatest symphonies of all time, sat unplayed in a drawer for almost a hundred years.     

o.k., good ideas.

Well I was just talking about the often used orchestrational effect of a string group changing slowly from tremolo to sul pont tremolo - an effect heard commonly.  That can be done perfectly with a slot crossfade in VI. 

Hi Paul, thanks very much - I am a fan of your music so that is great to hear.  

There is no audible difference between that and a crossfade between tremolo and sul pont tremolo routed through MIR in VE which is easy to do - just crossfade them in a VI slot.  

However, I have to say this is starting to be like Mac vs. PC and that kind of argument is fruitless.  

They are both good, and it just depends on your personal preferences of work. 

"I'm referring to the building of an instrument from the several available patches/articulations. This is a type of flexibiliy preceding any FX, and focused on creating a sound with the raw possibilites of the original instruments. At the moment, it seems to me that Vienna Instruments Pro is the only player with that degree of power.

...This is the original mission of VSL: making a credible simulation of a real ensemble/orchestra. It's also what makes them so different than the others.

In this vein: I hope VSL will expand their VI collection with more extended techniques. Orchestral Spheres and Dimension Strings III/sul tasto were beautiful tries. I hope there will be more for this kind of 'flexibility' in the future." - Paolo

Paolo that is exactly right - "flexibility preceding any FX" and "raw possibilities of the original instruments"  - that is what makes VSL totally different from all other sample libraries.  You can go into the the most basic performance of each instrument at a level beneath anything else, and so control the performance elementally.  I haven't found this with any other sample library and it needs to be continued.  I agree totally with your demand for extended techniques  - the sul tasto Dimension Strings are great, and to have extended techniques would make that even better.  Even though the Synchron series is great for people who want an instant approach to mixing etc., the Dimension Strings are the true artistic flagship of VSL because they have become more detailed and complex than any other sample library ever done.  They are not generic, not simplistic, but have the natural complexity of acoustic musical performance and the fact that one can control each and every player in the ensemble makes the possibilities for that library endless.  

I had the same reaction as Sam - the trumpet sounded great - you did great work on that with beautiful phrasing and expressive dynamics -  but the voice  sounded artificial.  The legato transitions were exaggerated.  The choir would be a way to get a more natural sound as Sam mentioned. 

Guy Bacos has done it - several of his demos of the solo voices are fantastic -  but I haven't been able to get a solo  voice to sound convincing on a fully developed melodic part like this, only in very simple things.

"... the multiple mic positions have tonal and spatial capabilities that are beyond dry samples. Used in tandem with each other, it’s indistinguishable from real players if properly performed." - Stephen Limbaugh

To Stephen Limbaugh:

So are VI  "if properly performed." 

Realism of performance and mixing does not come from multiple mic positions.  It comes first of all from total realism of articulations/performance and then from post production mixing.   And MIR is precisely what is used to create with dry samples what you seem to be intimating with   "spatial capabilities."   And MIR offers multiple mic positions anyway. 

Hi Macker,  thanks a lot!

I didn't expect much reaction as every time I've submitted this symphony to conductors they just ignore it.  I really appreciate hearing from you and the other people here!

Crusoe that is a good call as the level of the tom-toms was questionable.  I cranked them up, also adjusted their individual dry/wet to -45.12% in the MIR Vienna Konzerthaus GrosserSaal v2 Conductor position with overall dry/wet  at -35.44% and the Miracle Close Orchestral Stage Enhance default setting.  

Thanks very much for listening Paolo and your comments!

Tom I am trying to get it played live but my lips would be hamburger after even the fourth horn part.  Which makes me something of a hypocrite I guess. 

Thanks very much Jay it is great to hear from you! 

You and all the people who have commented here are extremely talented musicans that I admire and I greatly appreciate the feedback.  

thanks so much Tom, I  really appreciate that!    I think Guy Bacos, Christian Kardeis, Jay Bacal and a lot of other guys here are beyond me, but that is very nice of you to say!  

p.s. - I hope you noticed the high C just before the end for the entire horn section on the bellowing counter melody.  They were struggling to be heard over the entire 6 Trumpet - Flugelhorn/5 trombone-Bass Trombone/Tuba section but I think they succeeded. 

Also, I should mention that the 8 horn ensemble on this recording was accurately divided by means of using two four-horn ensembles when there was just 2 note divisi, and four combo solo/dimension horns when it was 4 note divisi.  I had them sittting on top of each other in MIR to represent the spacing similarly. 

MMKA thanks very much.

Jasen, thank you for your very kind words!  

Thanks a lot Paul I appreciate your listening.

I probably should not post another piece right away,  but this one is totally different from the Andante and Allegro.   That was tiny, this is obscenely huge:  

Romantic Symphony

I recorded this with VSL before.  However,  I wanted to do a new mix using MIR Pro,  and decided to increase the size of the orchestra to near  Berlioz-conducting-with-a-sword levels.  It is mixed in Viennakonzerthaus Great Hall Conductor's Postion with Miracle Close Orchestral Stage Enhance.  This is the instrumentation:

Solo Flute 1

Flute Ensemble

Flute 2

French Oboe

Viennese Oboe

Oboe Ensemble

Clarinet 1

Clarinet Ensemble

Bassoon 1

Bassoon Ensemble

Contrabassoon

Trumpet 1

Cornet

Trumpet B Flat

Trumpet 3 Transposed

2 Flugelhorns

8 Horn ensemble

Solo Horn 1

Solo Triple horn

Dimension horns 1-4

4 horn ensemble

Trombone ensemble

Solo Trombone

Bass Trombone

Tuba

Timpani

Orchestral Percussion

Gongs

Cymbals/Anvil

Glockenspiel

Chimes 1 & 2

Tom-toms

Harp

Viennakonzerthaus Pipe Organ

Appassionata Violins with Orchestral divisi

Solo Violin

Orchestral Violins with Chamber divisi

Solo Violin 2

Appassionata Violas with Orchestral divisi

Solo Viola

Appassionata Cellos with Orchestal divisi

Solo Cello 2

Orchestral Basses

Chamber Basses

Paul, thanks for listening - I am a fan of your music so it is great to get your reaction on this. 

Thanks a lot Tom,  I am really glad to get your ideas on this. That is interesting to hear about Andre who was such a fantastic player.  

Thanks Errikos,  I did a new mix thanks to some feedback.  I was so involved with doing the music, I lost objectivity and since I like the Pernegg Monastery MIR I did a mix there, but it was totally bizarre to have that huge reverb and two solo instruments.  Jos Wylin and MMKA were my informants on this.   So I did a mix in the Schubert Hall, much more dry and did some further EQ on violin, Also the levels of violin vs. piano.  

Andante and Allegro

I had the Allegro of this piece for violin and piano on the VSL site as a demo, but it was an earlier version that I always felt dissatisfied with.  It seemed that the last movement needed an entire section, or secondary contrasting theme.  After a number of years I finally came up with something I thought worked and completed also a performance of the Andante.  This uses the first solo violin and Bosendorfer piano, mixed in EDIT: Schubert Hall MIR Pro.

This first movement was slow and easy to play supposedly, compared to the second movement.  But it was almost impossible to program MIDI !  The slow easy Andante movement was way harder than the fast complicated Allegro.  But I did a performance of it, using a lot of dynamics and sul legato alternating with regular,  and now the piece is complete in MIDI.  I am trying to interest some players in it, and have the sheet music at SMP Press.  

I would be very interested to get some comments on the MIDI as doing two solo instruments only  is raw and naked and so much harder than giant luxurious orchestrations... 

Andante annd Allegro

I was thinking the confusion here is due to the fact that you can use either one, but in general the "perf-rep" samples across the board have more individual variations.  You can see that in VI as you play.  So you can choose whatever one you want based on the passage of music.  In a passage that is only a few reps, the "perf" articulation might actually sound better, but in a longer more exposed passage  the "perf-rep" might be better  and less mechanical.  

The same thing has happened to me on legato perf-rep vs. a smooth long detache.  There are more variations on the legato perf-rep but sometimes the playing of the detache, or the length of the samples, fits better and the fewer samples are not noticeable.  So there is not a single rule to be applied except you get more variations with the perf-rep samples.