Hi Paul,

Without knowing or caring about how VSL is internally structured, I do assume your best intentions, while realizing that your hands may be tied regarding certain matters or decisions. A friendly interaction with your customers is always welcome and appreciated, and sometimes it may be all that's needed. 

For such a simple request as the silent key though, just being friendly stops being enough after 3 years. Whatever the reasons are, these are no longer relevant when the implementation of such a feature can be written, compiled, tested, packaged into a new installer and uploaded on the server during literally one lunch break. 3 years and counting for the implementation of such a simple feature would not be understandable even for a product that costs €10 and I hope you agree that this is a little hard to swallow.

Regarding the -- let me put on my soft gloves and merely call it "sub-optimal" -- sympathetic resonance, this is a little different, since this is not a new feature request, but a fix request. There is a widget on that UI which reads "Sympathetic". As long as it's on that interface, it becomes one of the features that customers have paid for, a feature they've learnt to take for granted in the last decade because most, if not all other VST pianos have implemented it substantially better than VSL. After 3 years of waiting, a customer is not interested in hearing about how difficult such a feature implementation is, especially since your products are priced much higher than the ones that have implemented this feature successfully. Not even having an ETA after all this time makes matters worse.

What's even sadder is the fact that there are other issues that bug me even more than these two, in all 5 VSL pianos that I own, and you made it pretty clear to me in previous posts that these won't get addressed either. It's a pity, really. The potential for something amazing was definitely there, these could have been THE vst pianos, period. Instead they are merely good but overpriced pianos with a few issues, and the fact that they are packed to the brim with velocity layers does not change that. That's just my opinion.

I hope that you'll find at least tiny bits of my critique useful and I sincerely wish you and VSL a world of success.

Hi Paul,

With all due respect, but this is just more of the same.

Originally Posted by: Paul

...unfortunately we didn't find the time to integrate a useful "silent key" option.

A useful silent key? What would be a less useful one? We're not talking about complex algos here which can yield different results, or task the CPU differently, but about something as simple as: if velocity < pppp return None. The system already knows the velocity, and None, 0, or NULL means in this case literally 0 gain or simply "no sound".

Even without this, we should still be able to mimic it via the velocity curve editor now that we have it, but for some reason it seems that either a) code was written specifically to not allow it or b) the weighting curve is mapped between ppp and fff, instead of 0 to fff. Either way, this stuff would be absolutely trivial for a developer to fix.

Originally Posted by: Paul

Regarding Sympathetic Resonance: There are more advanced algorithms we could apply, at a pretty high cost of CPU power.

Not sure how advanced the algos used in other VSTs are, but they sure sound ok to me, and that without the high CPU hit.

Originally Posted by: Paul

Maybe there will be a better solution available at some point.

Maybe? At some point? Who would make a better solution available?

Sorry Paul, I don't mean to be an a**, but I am a little frustrated. Moreover, I saw you guys released the new 280VC, I got curious and checked the price, and then I remembered this thread and came here to see if anything got done in the last 2-3 years.

As a result all I can say is that ... maybe ... at some point ... someone will find a better way to convince me that paying €445 for a VST piano which has the exact same limitations as the other 5 I foolishly purchased from VSL might be a good idea.

Danke fuers Zuhoehren.

Originally Posted by: David B.

I think that the refund policy negates the accusation regarding "questionable marketing pitches" and "misleading advertising." That's why I'm finding it difficult  to see justification in your criticism of VSL.

To be honest your reaction left me just as baffled as probably my post left you, so let's just agree to disagree.

Given the fact that this thread is 3 years old, and Paul's last reply on the matter is roughly 8 months old, I think it's safe to assume that the "Sympathetic" slider will continue to output everything but sympathetic resonance for the foreseeable future, and that the silent key is also a lost cause, even after the addition of the long awaited velocity curve. If the lower left corner represents 0 velocity and 0 gain, why on earth can't we use it to mimic a silent key? How hard can it be to not trigger any sound if velocity stays below a certain threshold?

Oh well, I've wasted enough time on this forum today. Over and out.

True, you did not complain about me, but you did disagree with the things I said to the extent that you felt the need to set me straight. It's bit of a gray area and I hope you agree. Not quite patronizing, but not far from it either, at least this is how a post like yours can be perceived when words are all we have.

If I misinterpreted and you were instead simply genuinely curious, I apologize. But then, I am not sure what could have been unclear about my bullet points? You may of course disagree with them, but instead of asking for more, clarifying details, you suggested I should simply be grateful for having so many options.

David, if you're ok with paying VSL premium prices for incomplete products, that is entirely your call. Nobody is going to stand in your way.

Do you at least agree that if nobody is saying anything, no improvement will ever be made? If after +-3 years since release, bullet-pointing the features that are incomplete, nonexistent or broken are considered an invalid complaint, I'd like to know why.

Originally Posted by: David B.

Originally Posted by: cuzzinlouie

...How come most $99-$200 pianos on the market have had most if not all these things from day one, and VSL refuses to implement them in VSTis that cost 3-4 times as much, 3 years after inception, one piano after another with the same limitations as the previous one? Seriously, what is this?

Until I see a major shift in the way VSL is doing business, I'm out.

Do these $99-$200 virtual pianos sound better than VSL's offerings? If so, then why are you complaining? I would imagine you would be grateful to find something you like at a lower price. Do VSL's offerings (with their limitations) sound better than the $99-$200 virtual pianos? if so, then why are you complaining? I would imagine that you would be grateful to have a product that exceeds all others. 

Personally, I'm grateful there are so many options to choose from that can inspire and enhance my playing experience. Nobody is forcing me to buy VSL products. It's the choice I'm making because I like them the best. Hopefully, you'll find satisfaction with whatever product you choose to use. 

God Bless,

David

Hm, where do I begin? Should I even begin? Probably not, so I'll just say this:

"Do these $99-$200 virtual pianos sound better than VSL's offerings?"

In my opinion this question is too vague. As I am sure you know, it's not just the sound one gets by pressing a key what makes a great piano, but if this was your question then no. They all sound like good pianos recorded with good microphones, even the $99 ones. They all have their pluses and minuses, that's why we keep buying them in the hope that one day we'll get to the holy grail of VST pianos.

Why do I complain? For the same reason you complain about me complaining. It's a method of expressing disagreement with something that's been said or done.

Hi Ben,

Thanks for the heads-up regarding the velocity curve editor. I saw a new version was released in March, but I could not find a changelog anywhere, so I did not bother downloading it.

Indeed I missed this release simply because there was no email notification and after months of hoping for updates that just wouldn't come, I stopped visiting the VSL website.

Anyway, I'll edit my post.

Kind regards

3 years since this thread started and all we got were a few vague answers like "we might look into it if time permits"(paraphrased), along with questionable marketing pitches like "buy nevertheless, these are great pianos, believe me"(paraphrased), in spite of the fact that these are by far the most expensive VSTi pianos on the market.

The "Sympathetic" widget on that interface should either be removed, or renamed to something like "Mud Slider" or "This will do something(?) to the sound that you won't like". If it's left as it is it's simply misleading advertising.

Let me recap:

- No Sympathetic resonance

- No silent key

- No velocity curve control (Correction: no yet tested, but seems to've been implemented in March 2021)

- Inconsistent panning on quite a few microphones, on all pianos (I haven't heard the new 280VC)

- Unnaturally short and synthetic sounding note decay which, along with the lack of sympathetic resonance, considerably diminishes the qualities that these pianos otherwise do have.

- How about una corda samples?

How come most $99-$200 pianos on the market have had most if not all these things from day one, and VSL refuses to implement them in VSTis that cost 3-4 times as much, 3 years after inception, one piano after another with the same limitations as the previous one? Seriously, what is this?

Until I see a major shift in the way VSL is doing business, I'm out.

Hi Paul,

There is indeed such a thing as mic shadowing, whereby the mic's "field of view" can be partially obstructed, but this can only yield such an audible effect if the obstructing object is within few centimeters from the mic. More importantly, there would need to be a transition between affected and non-affected keys, just as a shadow has blurry edges. I would venture a guess and say that the close1 mics where not even that close to the strings because I don't hear a proximity effect (as I do on the tube mic), so they must have been at least 40-50 cm from the soundboard.

Whatever the cause, whether shadowing, phase cancellation or anything else, the result is simply not desirable, so why not fix it?

If the entire piano is sampled all at once, there is indeed nothing that can be done per key, neither volume nor panning, but that's not the case here.

Thank you for fixing mid1 and mid2, but here too you've initially suggested that these have not been manipulated. In this case mic shadowing could not have been the cause because of the bigger distance to the braces. Maybe whatever caused the mid1 and mid2 panning issues also affected close1?

As a side note, I listen to a lot of piano music, jazz and classical, old and modern, and I don't remember ever hearing such panning side effects where, for example, A2 is farther to the left than A1, as it's the case with close1. Maybe you have a few examples?

Thank you

Hi Paul,

I have no doubt that there is a valid reason for the panning shifts, but that does not mean that these cannot be adjusted, in my opinion.

I would not mind doing it myself, but we as users don't have access to per-key panning.

I like the sound of close1 very much, but because of the panning issues I avoid playing it.

Thank you

I was wondering the same thing.

A part of me is still hoping that the close1 panning issues will be looked at.

Thank you David and Ben, I really appreciate your help.

Somehow, that email landed in my spam folder. I only knew about the update because I saw it in MyVSL, where there was no mention about the mid1/2 and the panning fixes.

Anyway, I've updated mid1 and 2 and these are now good.

I was really hoping for a similar fix on close1 though.

While the panning on close1 is definitely not as problematic as it was on the mids, I was really hoping for a panning update on this too. These are harder to spot, but the issues are there and I hear them every time. 

I am talking about panning jumps between D2-D#2 and G2-G#2. In order to hear them, only have the close1 loaded and maybe turn off the reverb. Run an A Major scale starting from A1 to A2 and back. Headphones.

Same thing C4-C#4.

Other than that, the mid1 and mid2 are now good to go, thanks VSL for the update.

Thanks David and bbelius,

Where do you have this info from, and where are these two files available?

All I am seeing under MyVSL/Synchron Library Updates is Boesendorfer Imperial Library Update 01.

This only includes:

Y18_Boesendorfer_Imperial_Stereo_Update01_SPv1_w1.vsldownload and Y18_Boesendorfer_Imperial_Additional_Update01_SPv1_w1.vsldownload

I did see a V2 in front of the main library downloads, but I assumed V2 simply includes Update 01, especially since I could not find any mention of the panning fixes anywhere. The release notes only mention the C2 fix.

Do I need to download the V2s mid1 and mid2?

Thanks

Originally Posted by: KevinMe

I have to say the update has resulted in a step up in my enjoyment of the Bösendorfer Imperial. I don't properly understand the fixes, the panning issue was one I didn't pick up on but there is something cleaner about the sound after the update

I am however confused, from what I understand and my reading of the lightweight release notes the fixes are for panning issues in the mid mics and removing clicks for certain notes in the close and mid mics at high velocities. It feels like the improvement is more than that to me, are there any other changes or is that it?

I was rating BI a step down from the Vienna Imperial, but now I'd be hard pressed to say which i enjoy more.

They have quite different sounds.

Hi Kevin,

I think I may be missing something.

The panning issues have not been addressed, nor have they been mentioned in the release notes.

Regarding the improvements you are hearing, can you be a little more specific? I am asking because I hear zero difference. Just so my ears don't deceive me, I created a chromatic run in Cubase, at different velocities and bounced the results with and without the update, then did a null test (listen to both bounces at the same time, but reverse the phase on one track).

Other than a few extremely minor differences in the lower registers on a few velocities on the ribbon mic only, and the C2 peaks, both bounces sound absolutely identical, i.e. they null perfectly.

Anyway, looking forward to the panning fixes, as these currently keep me from enjoying this otherwise great sounding VSTi.

Thanks

Thank you

Thank you for the reply, Paul.

Regarding the Boesendorfer Mid1 microphone, I am not complaining about the stereo width, but about the fact that the notes are randomly jumping from left to right in the stereo field. With headphones on and with only Mid1 loaded, simply run a C major scale up and down. I can provide you with with a midi file, but I don't think this is needed since the panorama issues are very obvious.

Regarding bugs, wishes or feature requests, I honestly consider that everyone on this board has been pretty patient and understanding, it's just that it's been a year and a half since the Concert D has been released, and we have yet to get a clear answer. We had a few replies stating that the sympathetic resonance and the silent key are not considered priorities, or that it's even been decided to leave these out, but I need to remind you that the sympathetic resonance is not a feature request. Moreover, I don't think there are many VSTi pianos on the market that do not have this feature. The same goes for the silent key and velocity curve control. These are basic yet important features and I am really having a hard time accepting that the most expensive VSTi pianos on the market do not have them.

There's been a "Sympathetic" control on the interface since day one, it's just that it really does not do what it's supposed to do. Not even close. The same behavior has been carried over to the CFX, Bluethner and the two Boesendorfer.

Nobody has asked for over night, magical fixes. It's been a while though.

I personally still have patience, but it would be nice of VSL to at least acknowledge the bugs and confirm that they are being worked on. An ETA would be nice too.

Thank you

Hi everybody,

I've recently bought the Bosendorfer and I quite like it.

I am however pretty disappointed by the pretty distracting panning issues I am hearing on the Mid1 (extreme), but also on the Condenser and Ribbon to a much lesser extent.

Other than that, while this piano sounds wonderful, it too suffers from an unnaturally quick and somewhat clinical sounding note decay, lack of sympathetic resonance and silent key, just like all the pianos in the Synchron collection. Not to mention the lack of a velocity curve control which, for such an expensive VSTi, is quite disappointing, to say the least.

Unfortunately, the best microphone in my opinion is the Tube, which does not come with the standard version. So I pretty much paid the full (introductory) price for one single microphone.

I don't expect the note decay to be improved (would be a welcome surprise though), and the lack of sympathetic resonance and silent key are being discussed in another thread, but I would like someone from VSL to acknowledge the panning issues and to hopefully tell us that a fix is in the works.

Thank you and stay safe

Originally Posted by: Paul

Hi cuzzinlouie, 

Glad to hear that you like the Concert D-274. 

No news on these 2 feature wishes yet, focus is still on VE Pro 7 right now. 

I'll do my best to keep you in the loop there. Luckily, the CFX won't run away. 

Best,
Paul

Hi Paul,

VE Pro 7 has been out for awhile now, do you have any news for us?

You mentioned in another thread that the silent key is not going to be implemented. Is that a "never" or there is simply no ETA yet?

Regarding the sympathetic resonance, I would not call it a feature request. The feature has already been implemented, it just needs quite a lot more love. I noticed that in all demos showcasing any of the 3 synchron pianos the sympathetic resonance is always turned off. I guess that means that everybody is aware of it's shortcomings.

Kind regards,

Hi,

I was wondering, is the VSL team planning on implementing a velocity curve editor in the Synchron player?

Vienna Instruments seems to have one, unfortunately I could not find a way to load The Concert D into it. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think this is possible, and I wonder why.

Such a great piano and I cannot use it at its full potential because of this. Adjusting the midi sensitivity knob only gets me half way there, as the adjustment I need is not linear. I know of the few standalone host applications that have been suggested here, but while these may be a viable workaround, they are of no help for recording since none of the DAWs I use (Cubase and Reaper) have a velocity curve editor built in.

I don't mean to be harsh, but every piano library released in the last decade has a velocity curve editor and It's a little surprising--to say the least--that the most expensinve VI piano on the market is lacking such a basic but crucial feature.

I am also considering getting the CFX, but not until this issue, along with the non functioning sympathetic resonance or the missing silent key, are being addressed. Can we expect an updated Synchron Pianos player in the near future?

Thank you

Hi all,

I've just purchased the Concert D and I am loving it! Congrats to the VSL team!

Any news on the sympathtic resonance and the silent key? Currently these two issues along wih the missing velocity curve are the only things stopping me from also getting the CFX.

Thanks