Hello PaoloT, 

What follows is some, but perhaps not all of the evidence, with a decision to follow. 

This list assumes that VI Dimension Brass and Synchron-ized Dimension Brass are identical. If our magnanimous friends at VSL snuck in bonus patches in the conversion, those sounds might not be represented here. 

Evidence

VI Horns offer both a Viennese Horn and a Triple Horn. Though Dimension Horns are playable solo, I don't recall them distinguishing per type of horn.

Dimension Horns have three variations of light dynamics not found in the VI Triple Horn. 

The VI Triple Horn has three pfp variations and two strong dynamic patches, all missing in Dimension Horns. 

The Viennese Horn has ten patches dedicated to dynamic no vibrato sounds. All are missing from Dimension Horns. 

The Viennese Horn has recorded interval trills of a major and minor second. The Dimension Horns have no recorded trills -- only performance trills. 

Dimension Trumpets have three variations of light dynamics not found in the VI Trumpet. 

The VI Trumpet has two pfp variations and two strong dynamic patches, all missing in Dimension Trumpets. 

The VI Trumpet has six patches dedicated to dynamic no vibrato sounds. All are missing from Dimension Trumpets. 

The VI Trumpet has recorded interval trills of a major and minor second. The Dimension Trumpets have no recorded trills -- only performance trills. 

Dimension Trombones have a blare sample not found in solo trombones. 

Dimension Trombones have a performance trill not found in the solos. 

Again, Dimension Trombones have three variations of light dynamics not found in the VI solo trombones. 

VI Trombone has two strong dynamic patches not found in Dimension Trombones. 

Again, there are four no vibrato dynamics for VI Trombones (normal, mute A and B) and three strong no vibrato dynamic patches in the normal VI Trombone. Dimension Trombones do not have these.

Verdict

With deep empathy for your desire to simplify your template and the frustration of so many choices, it is probably still best to keep both libraries resident. 

Plowman

Originally Posted by: Macker

No doubt he'll also cover Logic Pro 10.7 very soon.

No doubt indeed: 

http://dingdingmusic.com/-titles-/logic-pro---whats-new-in-10_7.html

There's a lot of good study books and tutorials in the Logic universe, but when it comes to degree of detail, graphic layout and depth of information, Edgar stands alone. The production quality of his videos is superb. These are the products of a man totally immersed in his work. 

I too have no professional affiliation with him. 

My percussion bundle appears properly installed, correctly licensed and online. All three percussion libraries are listed in the eLicenser Control Center, and all presets load and play. But there is an exception:

In the preset 00 Timpani - Adams - All m. (SP I-III) Preset, consider:

C1 Medium mallets > F1 Single strokes > Ringing / Secco. The patches are not appearing, the slots are red-exxed, and in the channel set, "SY player" is red-boxed. 

As an example, the first patch slot calls for 01 Tmp-Ad-mr20_Open. No such patch appears in the patch menu. However, there is a patch that does not break down the instruments per size: 01 Tmp-Ad-mr_Open.

Check the "02 Flute 1 VelXF sus" preset. The diminuendos are loaded with crescendo patches. The corresponding Flute 2 preset is correctly mapped. 

Is there a detailed list of this second expansion pack's articulations (September 2021). The overview I'm seeing refers to the first expansion pack (with the pure legatos). 

At an unchanging note velocity of 80, and the AB switch set on B for the diminuendo, G7 ( white key ) sounds like strong 4 seconds and G#7 ( black key ) sounds like medium 4 seconds -- A7 ( white key ) sounds like strong 8 seconds  and A#7 ( white key ) sounds like medium 8 seconds. 

But the manual says the strong dynamics are on the black keys. 

Possibly the white F7 key should have been skipped to keep the strong / medium = black / white ordering preserved. 

Here is my note-by note understanding of the solo snare-on dynamic key assignments. This is from page 36 of the VI percussion manual. Am I reading it correctly? The differences in the dynamic level are sometimes difficult to hear. 

C#7 strong 0.5 seconds. ( black key )

D7  medium 0.5 seconds ( white key )

D#7 strong 1 second ( black key )

E7 medium 1 second ( white key )

F7 medium 2 seconds ( white key ) 

F#7 strong 2 seconds ( black key )

G7 medium 4 seconds ( white key )

G#7 strong 4 seconds ( black key )

A7 medium 8 seconds ( white key )

A#7 strong 8 seconds ( black key )

Thank you. Could you tell me where VSL/ Synchron preferences are located? I've deleted Logic's preferences many times, but never anything by VSL.

Beyond that. hopefully someone at VSL can comment on preset limitations. 

Welcome to the forum. 

VSL has never offered articulation sets for Logic, even when the number of dimensions was three or less. 

Do a search on "Audiogrocery XDAW." This is a third party program designed to accommodate far more than three  keyswitches. Its developer, Ivan, is very responsive to users' questions. There is, however, a learning curve. 

XDAW allows three different ways to create articulation sets. It can be used as a simple builder of three-switch Art sets, in which case you just save the set in Logic's correct folder. You could build the very same thing in Logic, but XDAW has features to expedite the build. However, because of the very issue you mention, a straight-forward Logic Art set, no matter where or how it was built, only drives three keyswitches -- hence no Synchron String Pro / Elite. 

The last two ways include automation and the use of Scripter. Either of these two is required for more than three keyswitches. (You don't have to know how to write scripts.)

I rebuild my templates frequently. Sifting Synchron Pro / Elite Strings into no more than three dimensions is a challenge, especially if you want to preserve all the options. It's a great way to learn the library and the Synchron Player. But it does take time. 

If you pursue XDAW, ask Ivan if he has any pre-made Synchron files. 

1. I load a VSL native preset, rename it, and save it in my custom folder. When I load that saved, renamed file, the preset name in the Synchron Mix tab does not change, when in fact, the new preset has successfully loaded. 

Is this a known issue? 

2. Do Synchron users have direct, per folder access to VSL native presets? It seems the only way I can get to them is to load a full preset (slots and all), then rebuild my template from there to preserve access to VSL's mixer presets. 

If that's true, it's a late realization for me, as I've built several templates by hand, and now the only mixer preset option I have for these rebuilds is "default."

As an example, if the user rebuilds the solo flute 1 from scratch -- from a completely new Synchron channel -- is there any way he can access the VSL solo flute 1 mixer presets ( close, classic, wide, etc.)? It appears the only way is to load the native VSL solo flute 1 preset on a new channel set and copy/paste the scratch-built slots. 

Am I correct that mix channels in the Synchron Player can only be deleted from right to left? As an owner of only the standard packages, that seems to leave me with channels that aren't being used and cannot be individually removed (or it requires the deletion and rebuilding of channels I'd like to keep).

I view this company with on-going wonderment. 

My progression is familiar to many of you: Emax > Roland S550 > Kurzweil 2500K (orchestral ROM)  > EXS > Giga > Vienna > Vienna plus Synchron. 

Actually it all began with the SCI Six-Trak, whose marketing handout proclaimed "Your Personal Orchestra." ... All six analog voices. Of course, if you wanted to sequence those voices as discrete instruments, you needed a Commodore 64.

Those who are now entering VSL libraries for the first time should count their blessings. "Son, when I was your age...."

VSL is peerless. As William has indicated, they were the fork in the sampling road. 

The new Synchron-ized Bassoon 2 is labeled "01 BA2_perf-legato_Vib." Unlike all other expansion legatos, this one is not called "pure legato" (and Bassoon 1 is "01 BA1_perf-legato pure").

The original Synchron-ized Bassoon 2 is called "22 BA2_legato_mV." There, the "perf" is missing, though it is called legato. 

I'm just curious if these two patches were recorded differently. I'm also not sure how anything can be "legato" unless it is a "perf legato."

In any case, the "legato pure" patches are great. 

In the world of VSL, there's no such thing as a finished template....

Fantastic. 

Mr. Kersten is correct. But I'm glad you asked, because I want to clarify that I absolutely want all MIR-related elements to match as much as possible, notably the ones you mention: MIR's tail length and relative dry/wetness. 

Two points: I am prone to falling into rabbit holes, the infinite tweak, the "I'm here to compose... but I want everything to match perfectly before I begin." That's a fool's errand. One may argue (perhaps ad absurdum) that even the same orchestra in the same room sounds different from hour to hour. Certainly intonation, humidity, general human energy, and other terrestrial factors constantly change. 

But more specifically, I was fresh from the experimenting with "identical" instruments -- say, VI chamber cellos and Synchron-ized chamber cellos (where ostensibly they are the same original samples). One had a sheen, a more biting sound, and the other was smoother. Here we broach matters of EQ, the changes the developers may have made to the original material, plug-ins, etc., all compounding upon themselves. (Such things were not obvious, though, based on the mixing settings.)

Those differences, I decided, were to be celebrated as options. Many here have the chops to further homogenize them. It's not my skill set. 

But yes, regarding the length of the tail, the general room sound, and certainly the average loudness of the instrument, I very much want VI and Synchron to be as identical as possible for a convincing, unified sound. 

You make a good point differentiating Synchron from Synchron-ized, as with the latter you can indeed turn off the IR and route through MIR. Personally, I have automated the IR wet/dry within Synchron-ized sounds, and I adjust it per instrument with Logic's Smart Controls. If I did send Synchronized patches to MIR, immediately I'd gain more options. 

It's ironic: just this week I have matched and compared VSL's Synchronized sounds (with their built-in Synchron IR's) to my dry VI library going through MIR -- and then I compared those to Synchron native per-mike mixes. It's quite an education. One must be careful not to press too hard for identical sounds (which is tempting when you want the liberty of using both VI and Synchron / Synchronized in the same song -- such is the source of your hope and frustration). 

I may be able to clarify two other points you have raised. Describing Synchron native sounds as neither wet nor dry is not quite accurate. Yes, the Synchron native instruments were recorded on the Synchron Stage, but they were captured with multiple microphones simultaneously. These are found in the Mix tab of the Synchron player when a native Synchron patch is loaded. 

Survey the mikes. The close mic is more or less dry, but not completely so, the main microphone is wetter, but not awash with reverb, and so on. It's a completely different paradigm for mixing and positioning, separate from MIR, distinct from the old days of bus sends.  

And I had to laugh when I read, "...the 'natural volume' is useless as it makes everything 4x quieter than it already was." The first time I used natural volume, I thought it was a bug. Only later did I realize that it's an amazing resource *when it is used for the entire orchestra.* I came at it with faders at unity gain, virtually no headroom, and if any given instrument had "natural volume" checked, it would disappear from the orchestra. Gain structures are relative. 

"...it's a little confusing why VI have MIRx and Synchron ones don't."

Synchron products are recorded in the Synchron Stage. Synchron-ized products are samples initially recorded in the Silent Stage, then processed by special IR's to be placed in the Synchron stage. 

Why would MIRx put a Synchron / Synchron-ized library on the Synchron stage when VSL has already recorded or placed it there for you? Indeed, that is why it sounds so good out of the box.

This same question occurred to me when I first read, "It detects Strings Pro viola section as one viola, and puts it smack next to double basses."  If by "Strings Pro" you mean Synchron Strings Pro, why are you asking for MIR to place it automatically? It's already there. That's the essence of the product. Placement and reverb are adjusted in the Mix tab of the Synchron Player with four or more microphone outputs. Indeed, outputting a Synchron product through a MIR plugin could countermand the spatial qualities and freedoms that you bought in the library. 

I do empathize with your struggles though, not so much with MIR, but with the general aggravation of learning new software.  Programs have a way of making sense in retrospect, as galling as that thought is in the pique of our frustration. 

By the way, I didn't fully understand MIRx until recently. And I've owned MIR since it came out. Hang in there. 

In Synchron, select the performing dimension (the right-most slot -- the one with the patch loaded), then Edit Tab > Velocity Crossfade. "Global" means it will follow whatever the Perform setting has for crossfading. "On" will force cross-fading no matter what Perform has, and "Off" will disable cross-fading for that slot and that slot only, no matter the Perform setting. 

This same setting can be found in the Vienna Instruments. In Advanced View, select the cell slot,  then Edit Tab > Velocity XF (found above the envelope sliders). The same three options are presented. 

Thanks yet again. I thought I'd decoupled it, but your response prompted me to double-check. I get a full sample load now. 

Another question: I save a channel strip that's named "Flute" in the track header. But I save the channel strip .cst as "01 FL 12.78" for organizational purposes. If I load that .cst in a new song, the track header says "01 FL 12.78." I'd like it to read "Flute," just as I saved it. Any setting to make this happen? Or will it always default to the channel strip file's name?

Edit: I cross-posted at LPH, and there the moderator replied, "I believe that for both CSS and patches, what you name them is what populates the track header when you load them. No setting that I'm aware of to change that behavior."

For years I've worked with Logic and VEP templates. I've never used Channel Strip Settings as a save strategy. So this is an elementary question:

Can a Channel Strip Setting .cst file save instructions for loading the channels in a VEP instance with their samples? I'm observing that it loads the fx, the instrument (VEP) and other channel strip attributes for Logic. But in VEP, Logic only creates a correctly named but otherwise empty instance. 

If the correct instance is pre-loaded in VEP, the .cst finds it and connects. No problem. But can a .cst launch and load a VEP instance with its channels and samples all by itself?

As noted above, you’ll need a separate track and a different VI. The soprano sax matrix can be copied and pasted to the new VI. From there, you’d drag the new (but corresponding) alto articulations into each cell. 

If you’re trying to do this within one instrument / track, it won’t work. Per previous note: “ Important: only one matrix can play at a time per VI instrument. If I understand your question, you're asking if all four saxes can be assigned to one VI plug-in using four matrices. The short answer is no -- not if they are to play together. You can. of course, get a custom matrix and copy it to separate instruments. Then you would re-populate each cell with its specific saxophone.”

But I think you knew that. Strictly speaking, when correctly assembled, you absolutely can use the same Logic Articulation Set for both. Art ID’s don’t know what sound they’re triggering — only specific cells. Indeed, I have very extended Art ID’s for strings, and the violins, violas and cellos are identical — I just copied and pasted the Art set. Basses needed small modifications to accommodate the C1 to C2 playing range.

If and when the alto cells are updated and set to a new VI and track, and assuming that new VI has only the alto sax matrix, there is no reason the same Art set cannot be used. It cannot fetch the soprano sax when no soprano sax is on that track. So to answer your question, matrices are not tied to one another at all. 

To be clear: you are separating saxes per track, correct?  If you wanted to drive all four saxes in one track, you’d best be served by Vienna Pro Ensemble, where each sax could have its own channel and one track could drive it all. But in my opinion, scoring that way in Logic would condense everything to a single region, and handling CC’s, polyphony, per channel legato, etc., would be, well, inelegant. 

Congrats on your progress. 

Yes, a matrix can be saved that way, with the lower right save button. Once the instrument is assigned in Logic, it will be saved as well in the Logic file. As you parse out all saxophones, you could get one right, then in go Logic > Track > Other > New Track with Duplicate Settings, and drag the next saxophone's patches into their respective cells.

Be advised that, if the ranges of the actual instruments are too far apart, keyswitches have to be reassigned. For example, in strings, violins, violas and cellos are often keyswitched below the playing ranges, but contrabass keyswitches must be bumped above the playing range. I'm not sure if saxophones will require that adjustment. 

You had asked, "how do I specify the instrument in Logic so that all that works together?" That prompted my note on assigning an instrument. But if you have worked in Logic Score, and you have previously used Articulation Sets, you're well ahead there. Yes, it was the design of VI that confused the matter. 

Thank you for conferring on me both titles. May your saxes sing in harmony. 

There may be some basic oversights here. To correct them, allow me to risk telling you things you already know. Let's clarify some terms. 

"Articulation Set." This is purely a Logic term. Art Sets are created and edited in Logic alone. They don't exist in VI (or Synchron, for that matter). An Art Set in Logic is a list of ID's assigned to a keyswitch. Logic has no idea what sound it's selecting. It's just sending the keyswitches you tell it to send. 

"Populate a matrix."

Start with a completely empty VI plug-in on one track in Logic. On the right of the VI window, you see Preset / Matrix / Patch. Select Patch > Woodwind Patches > 70 Soprano Sax > 01 SHORT + LONG NOTES > 01 SX-So_staccato. Click-hold on it and drag it to the one and only cell in the middle of the screen that says A1.

Click-hold the lower right edge of that cell and extend it to the right to open up the next cell. It will say A2. Click-drag 11 SX_So_sus_Vib into A2. Now your matrix has a staccato and a sustained sound. 

Click-hold "None" on the X-Axis drop down menu and select Keyswitch. Now C1 will select the staccato, and C#1 will select the sustain. At this point, you would go into Logic and create a very straight-forward Articulation Set where ID 1 sends a C1 KS and ID 2 sends C#1. Create two notes in Logic Score and assign each an ID to verify playback. 

"Do I make a custom matrix in the VI plugin and save it for each one?" Important: only one matrix can play at a time per VI instrument. If I understand your question, you're asking if all four saxes can be assigned to one VI plug-in using four matrices. The short answer is no -- not if they are to play together. You can. of course, get a custom matrix and copy it to separate instruments. Then you would re-populate each cell with its specific saxophone. 

You would best assign each sax to its own track in Logic. This is covered in any ground-level tutorial on Logic's Main Window. You need a separate VI plug-in per track. 

Instead of the VI manual, have you watched VSL's videos? Consider Vienna Instruments Video Tutorials > Overview.

https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Software/Vienna_Instruments#!Video_Demos

" I was assuming that if I find a "staccato" articulation in a matrix, the combination of B0-C1-C2 would be the same articulation for staccato in any matrix."

Not so, indeed. Each matrix is a world unto itself. The commonalities you found verge on coincidental. This is why I previously cautioned against seeing matrices as an articulation list. Some users parse the entire orchestra by matrices in one plug in. C1 equals flute fluttertongue in the first matrix -- the next C1, a col legno viola.  

I might encourage you to set aside presets in VI as you learn. Synchron out of the box does its best to coordinate common articulations between instruments. VI presets are variegated. Synchron's interface is more visually intuitive; VI is a bit obscure. ( Ironically, they do mostly the same thing.)

"When I put them into an articulation map in Logic, they didn't work the way that they did in the plugin. I think that I am still missing something."

You're not alone. I've been doing this for a while, and still -- even in my prep to respond to your post -- I found that my test Art Sets weren't working. It's three-dimensional chess. And yet, it's a dumb function -- that is, neither Logic nor VI knows what's in B0 / C1 / C2 -- it's just a location. Logic has its bugs, of course, but the Art ID is straight-forward data input. 

"...no other dimension to be added." Might you consider creating your own matrix and the associated Art Set from scratch? Forego the presets for now and make your own simple layout, just as a proof of concept? 

Don't worry. My patience is intact. I know you're going to solve this. To repeat: each matrix is its own universe, and designing a custom matrix limited to one axis -- and then writing the simplest of Art ID's for that specific matrix -- might be highly instructive. One brick (or cell) at a time.