Bill, you win. I was certain this was a recording of Becky playing the tune and complimented the Carovillanos as such on their YouTube page. Turns out you are correct; Dave assures me that this is a virtual recording! Wow. So congratulations to Dave and Becky for this masterful composition and MIDI realization and congratulations to you, Bill, for having the ear to spot it. I didn't.

Thank you, Macker, for this thoughtful reply. I feel that I now have a better understanding of your strong negative reaction to a score that struck me as reasonably interesting and original (even if I could hear influences of this and that throughout). In fact, I was comparing apples and oranges. In my case, I listened to the score with only the vaguest understanding of the story it was written to accompany. I imagined how the cues might work to enhance a film that I was just imagining; sort of like envisioning a movie of Till Eulenspiegel after listening to the tune and reading Strauss' bare-bones outline of the story in the score. You, on the other hand, experienced the music in the context of its support of the actual movie...and found it wanting. Fair enough. At this point, I think I may give the movie a shot, if only to see how the score works for me in performing the task it was actually created for. Thanks again!

I have to admit, I had not heard of this picture or any of the hype surrounding the score. Your strong reaction piqued my curiosity, however, so I sought the score out on YouTube. I was astonished. Not so much by the music itself, but more by the powerfully negative effect it had on you. Oh, I get it that we all have our own taste. There is music I like very much that I understand is probably not all that hot; there is also music that I don't really dig that I know to be significant works of art. I cannot comment on the film; I have not watched it, but I listened to this score in its entirety (1:33!). I doubt I will ever invest the time to repeat the experience, but it held my interest and evoked images in my mind that I have to believe are of the type the filmmaker intended to accompany and reinforce his story telling. I liked the minimalist chamber orchestra the best, but I also liked when they brought swatches of big, lush 50s Hollywood, too. The Swing Era stuff worked; especially the cues that had that Minimalist Big Band vibe (sort of like if Duke Ellington and Steve Reich had a love child). And all of it really authentically performed/recorded/produced. No, this isn't going into my regular listening rotation. But "sets new lows in...entry-level, bush league scoring? Nowhere near up to scratch?" I am not nearly musically sophisticated enough to have heard that.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. Your intense dislike and offhand dismissal of this piece just surprises me, that's all. I have always read your contributions to this forum with great interest...often while nodding in agreement. In this case, I disagree. But more than that, I don't understand the criteria upon which you based your total rejection of the value of this score. For me to get anything useful out of a critique of a work of art, I need to have that. In other words, Macker, why do you think the score to Mank sucks?

Great piece, Bill. I've always listened to this on Spotify, where you had to divide it up into two 6-minute chunks to fit their format, I suppose. I like it better presented as the unified work it was meant to be. I also dig following along with the score; great job! It sounds like this chart dates from your Bruckner days; hanging tenaciously with an adagio tempo throughout. Big and somber. Thanks for sharing it with us.

Congratulations, Bill! This was an incredible undertaking. I'll have to wait a bit until I can take the time to watch it all the way through, but I watched some of the initial scenes to check out the score and see how the dialog-free story telling worked. Very cool. It kind of makes me think of those earliest sound movies as they were making the transition to talkies where you just had music and Foley stuff. The score fits right in with that time frame, too. But all that with modern audio and video effects. Can't wait to watch the whole thing.

Originally Posted by: William

MMKA you are right about it being a difficult piece, I played horn on the first and so far only live performance, and received nearly fatal lip damage.  Well, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but it has blistering horn and trumpet parts.   I did have some mercy and put the second, third and fourth parts down an octave in a couple places...

Final thoughts: Yes, Bill, you are exaggerating. I have it on very good authority that the first horn part, while challenging, is completely playable by old men with pulmonary conditions at an elevation of 6,040' (1,840 m) without causing permanent damage.

Bill and I have already communicated at length about this fine composition so I will address my remarks here primarily to the VSL community at large. Suffice it to say that I was so impressed by this piece that I recommended it to the conductor of our adult community concert band for inclusion in a future program. He loved it, too. I got Bill's beautifully prepared score and parts and we will perform it...whenever we are allowed to get a band together again, that is. Here's hoping I live long enough to see that day .

That being said, I don't think the importance of Bill's VSL version of this work can be overstated. To many concert music enthusiasts, wind bands are strictly denizens of the parade field. But for over 100 years, serious concert music has been composed for wind ensemble. Many of the most famous concert musicians of the 20th century wrote for band (or transcribed their orchestral compositions for the medium): Holst, Vaughn Williams, Grainger, Hindemith, Copeland, R. R. Bennett...Stravinsky himself, for crying out loud! Today, concert wind ensembles are found around the world, from student and young peoples' groups, to adult community bands, to the finest colleges and conservatories, premier military bands, and professional organizations. But VSL has made absolutely no attempt to market their products as a tool for aspiring band composers. And this in spite of the fact that they would not have to record any additional samples to do it. In this recording, Bill has proven it! It should go straight into the VSL music library. In fact, if I were the VSL marketing people, I would make something of a big deal of it. It could be their opening to a large, untapped market.

One final thought for you composers out there: bands will play new music. You don't have to compete with 400+ years of classical chestnuts to find room on a concert program like you do with orchestras. Just sayin'...

Originally Posted by: Pianokey56

...suggestions of instruments to add to the VI collection: 1. a tenor horn, like the one used in the intro to Mahler's 7th symphony

I'm surprised that the English brass band aficionadi haven't been screaming for years for this one.

Rangi (and you, too, Rangi),

I'm not really qualified to answer your question from a virtual composer's point of view but I can tell you what would work for me as a vocalist. I have used tracks like the cello part you are contemplating with good success. In my case, I am a reasonable but not great sight singer. If I want to learn something quickly that has strange intervals, a guide track helps. I have recorded multi-tracks of close harmony that can get kind of complex and the guide tracks made the learning process go a lot quicker. That being said, it is going to depend on just how "avant garde" your chart is. If you are asking for unusual extended techniques, you'll probably have to sing them yourself to give your baritone a clear picture of what you're wanting from him. My suggestion: if you have a guy in mind and intend to record, ask what works best for him. Some people can read fly specks and he may not need anything but the chart. I hope this helps you. Both of you.

Tom

Very cool piece, Stefan. Your hornist did a great job with it, too. I am really interested in your blended live/VSL recordings because I hope to do some work in that arena myself. Do you have the sheet music available for the Sonata? In the time of of COVID, it's always nice to have something new on the music stand when you can't get together with your friends to play a tune.

Originally Posted by: tinycomet

You're located in Salt Lake City as well? This was shot at the University of Utah close to downtown. 

No, I'm from Colorado Springs, but I've been to SLC a few times and could tell where you were.

Sam, all I can say about your essay is "+1". You very clearly elucidated what I've long felt about recorded music, particularly as it is used in the cinema. Cinematic orchestral sound has evolved in a way that sounds extraordinarily "fake" but works for its intended purpose. Your remark about the frame rate brought to mind seeing the Peter Jackson Hobbit films in HFR (48fps) 3D. I was struck by how obvious it made it that these were actors in make up performing on an artificially lit sound stage...you could tell that Ian McKellen's beard and nose were fake and the mix of CGI with live actors in the green screen shots just didn't work. It is ironic that a technology that makes the film much more realistic has the troublesome effect of making it clearer that it actually is fake. It is harder to suspend disbelief and just live the story.

This, of course, makes for an interesting problem for VSL, whose whole claim-to-fame has been the extraordinary realism of their products. For those of us hoping to accurately create concert music that we will, in all likelihood, never hear performed by a live professional orchestra, VSL is the only game in town. But for the folks who are sure that they will be the next Hans Zimmer, it's a different story; the hyper-realistic VSL samples need a battery of expensive, complex plug-ins with an El Capitanishly steep learning curve to make them sound "fake" in just the right way. Enter the BBO line. Good stuff, but you have to wonder if VSL has got a long road ahead of them trying to catch up to competitors who have been following this approach for years. What I don't understand: why VSL doesn't focus its marketing on musical hobbyists who actually want to hear music they have composed. Set up a website to present concert music created by customers using their products; contests for concert music (not wannabe film scores) made with VSL stuff, judged by big-name music pros and with nice prizes; you name it. Do you think it is because their products are too expensive for hobbyists? No way! People will pour plenty of dough into hobbies they think will give them pleasure and satisfaction, and music has always been a prime example (do you think that Steinway only sells pianos to the Rubinsteins of the world?). Well, however it goes, I wish them luck. They make great products and I hope they will still be around when I have saved enough pennies to get them. End of rant...

This is absolutely exquisite! I especially liked the tight sound and close-ups in the real world...her handbag and shoes, the distant sound of traffic (on Wahsatch Dr, I suppose), the sharp clicking of her heels on the bridge...it's all outdoors but it feels claustrophobic and closed in. Then, in the dance sequences, slo-mo and just your music. Freedom! Your dancer is wonderful and your cinematography and editing showed her moves beautifully. As for your music, I'm with Bill. Don't be too critical of your work; it fits the video perfectly and sounds great. Bravo!

Originally Posted by: Macker

My other half watched your video and said she enjoyed the models (she has designed and built several miniatures, some of them quite complex), the animation and music, but would have preferred a stronger storyline.

Macker, this is exactly what happened at my house! My wife Gerrie is a director and actor in local theater. She watched it with me and immediately stated that she wanted a stronger storyline. Interestingly, she worked out a rather specific story, which differed from the one I had worked out in my own head. Which is precisely why I enjoy such a nonspecific, abstract work; it lets you write the story you need to hear. That may be why I've always preferred instrumental music to songs with lyrics. I know the bass lines and horn figures to songs that I don't recall any other words than the hook. And I'm talking about Hall of Fame, #1 hits that everyone else in the world has completely memorized. Music, to me, is not just a vehicle to dispense poetry....without words, it tells me the story I need to hear.

(I left this same message on the YouTube of the video, but I thought it needed to be shared here, also.)

Bill, this is simply astonishing! Absolutely fantastic work! I was especially struck by your attention to the tiniest detail: the Foley work, the lighting, the incredible props, the computer-animated sequences...right down to the scratchy "needle-in-a-worn-record-groove" sound in the silent spots. The music is wonderful; every cue compliments the visuals perfectly, right down to the source cues. I'll let folks know that they need to check this out, if only to get an idea of what one talented person can accomplish with modern audio/video equipment and a ridiculous amount of creativity and hard work. Thanks for sharing it. I'm curious...there must be some sort of contests in the film production bag for which this would be a strong entrant. Are you going to submit the Dream for consideration in something?

Oh, OK, I get it. Frankly, I feel a bit silly for not grasping your meaning off the git-go. Clearly overthought it. I have considered doing something like that to help me record myself with MusicMinusOne tracks. You don't have a MIDI file to track along with but you could manually record the click while listening to the track then adjust any click that went a bit rogue to put it right on the sweet spot. Of course, with the same amount of time you could probably memorize every ebb and flow of the accompaniment and just...uh...play the damn thing. But what fun would that be?

Originally Posted by: Acclarion

I wanted to get a theatrical smoke machine and some pyro, but Becky wouldn't budge

There's one in every crowd...

Originally Posted by: Acclarion

We made a "virtual instrument" with number counting, etc.  Example:  1, and, 2, and, 3, e, and, a, etc.  Then, we assigned each command to a keyboard key.  After creating the midi parts with the appropriate tempo changes, we made a new track with the counting, to sync/match up with the midi strings.  These allow for much more flexibility than simply a click track.  If we have a 3 second fermata, followed by a 2 second complete silence, we can have counts to ensure we release the notes and re-enter at the exact time (still with lots of practice, of course).

So let me get this straight: You're not looking at a PDF of your notated clarinet and accordian parts on that iPad and making page turns with a foot switch...you're reading your parts off a running MIDI notation track along with your counting track? In Cubase? Sort of "Follow the Bouncing Ball!" ala Mitch Miller? If so, very clever. (If not, help me understand how you're doing it.) This performance also brings up a sticky question: could you foresee yourselves using this approach on a live concert date? Pianist/singers doing a Holiday Inn singles date have been making rhythm track accompaniments since the Casio days, but you legit guys are a different kettle of fish. It would not be without precedent, however. Before the lockdown, I caught a couple of ballet/modern dance shows, one from NYC, one from China. Both danced to prerecorded tracks that took full advantage of the complete sonic liberty that studio production gave them: soundscapes, montages, any type of vocal or instrumental music you can imagine, you name it. Would I have rather heard these folks dance to live musicians? I don't know...most of what they did simply could not be produced by musicians in the pit. It would be a completely different show; apples to oranges. What do you guys think? 

Dave and Becky,

Beautiful performance with a not-bad-at-all-considering-it's-on-the-fly production, to boot! You can trust me on this; I've been involved in a couple of Midnight Studio projects that make your production values here look like a Michael Jackson video! (A story for another time) I'm especially impressed with the way you perform so seamlessly with the virtual quartet, something that I have always found challenging and see myself doing more of in the future. Do you guys have a piano reduction of the quartet part on your music? Of course, this tune doesn't have a pile of tempo changes or rubato patches, but there are some stretches where the strings are resting, aren't there (I'll have to listen again)? Do you have a metronome light pulsing the tempo on your iPad or are the internal clocks in your heads accurate to 1/1,000th of a second?

Again, great performance and thanks for sharing it here. I look forward to your virtual concert on the 27th.

Tom

Originally Posted by: William

Also, those tracks didn't exist any more in a separate music track, only the full mixed soundtrack, so to orchestrate them I had to avoid listening to the footsteps, dialogue, trains going by, a lot of screaming and glass shattering.

Fishing out the parts by ear from behind evrything but the kitchen sink? Good grief, that's crazier than I thought it would be! Very cool cue, though. Must have taken more than a few runs to hear everything you did back in "the day". Now remind me again...you do this for pleasure, right? Sort of like hitting yourself in the head with a hammer because it feels so good when you stop? BTW, I really enjoy following your work on the score on your YouTube tracks. Thanks!

Beautiful stuff, Bill! I can see why you wanted to pull this score out of mothballs. Tell me, what were the synth tracks? Were they string patches from an OB8 or something that you played straight on to the tape, forcing you to arrange and orchestrate the separate string lines from a piano part (or worse yet, have to pick it out by ear, having lost any written-out version)?

I strongly ecourage anyone who is contemplating getting into the world of composition using VSL instruments (or really, any type of virtual orchestra) to watch this video. It is the clearest, most straight-forward description of the work involved in creating lifelike MIDI renditions of this type of music that I have seen. Great work, Dave!

Very cool, Bill! I thought at first that you were channeling Rossini, who it is said would yank arias wholesale out of his previous works when he knew his next premiere was in a town that hadn't heard the previous use of the tune. But when I rechecked the intro of one of my favorite Kersten opuses, I found that I was wrong; similar, but clearly different. I like 'em both.

On the subject of the Goldsmith Universal fanfare, I just heard an interview with the great LA studio French hornist Jim Thatcher wherein he talks about playing on that track. He relates that he played Wagner tuba on it. When queried if being stuck with the tuben part was the fate of the last hornist to show up for the session, he declared, "No way!" Honking a few bars on the tuben earns the player 50% premium pay as a doubler. The hornists always try to talk the composers into using Wagner tubas for a lick or two.

This is weird, Bill. I happen to be listening to the Romantic Symphony right now on Spotify! I'd switch over to your video so I could follow along on the score but I have to maintain at least the facade that I'm working; I can listen to music in the "background" as long as I at least have something work related on the screen. Guess that goes for the VSL website, too! Bye...

Tom

Bill,

I really enjoyed the walkthrough video; very informative. It led to a question that may seem terribly basic, but here goes: I see on the sequenced tracks of the two wind intsruments that you showed (2nd flute and oboe) that there is an overlap as one note passes to the next, even on these monophonic lines. This is intriguing because, obviously, a flute cannot still be playing the previous note after you have changed fingerings and begun sounding the next. It sounds wonderfully natural when it happens in your recording, however. Is this trick something that you add manually when you create the sequence or is this something the system does automatically, either as part of the legato patch itself or in the Humanizing logic?

There's something liberating about being so damned ignorant you are not ashamed to ask stupid qestions.

Thanks!

Tom

Bill, you outdid yourself on this one. The montage of those glorious HST images blended so perfectly with this exquisite, ethereal, music...wow. The mix on this piece simply blew me away! I was so reminded of my favorite old Mehta/LA Phil recording that I wore the grooves off of in my youth that I called it up on Spotify and compared it side-by-side with yours (for me, a sort of acid test). Your work with VSL compares very favorably with this great orchestral recording. I have loved this particular recording (more even than the highly regarded Boult or my usual favorite Bernstein) primarily for the sound of it. I always figured that they'd used a bit of Hollywood soundstage recording technique, as opposed to the more legit "put 'em onstage in a great concert hall and try to make the recording sound as if you were sitting in row 20" school of thought. The woodwind parts, the pitched percussion, the solos, the pipe organ...all stand out with a clarity that I've never heard sitting 50' away in the audience. It's not as if the balance is screwed up, it's perfect. It just sounds more close, more present. Your Neptune has this effect even more palpably than the LA Phil recording for me. I don't know if that's what you intended, but it absolutely works for me.

Tom

Originally Posted by: Paul McGraw

I am 66 years old. I have Congestive Heart Failure, OCPD, and Cancer. Which will kill me first? Only my God knows which or how long it will take. But I still take great joy in trying to write music. And writing music is a great activity for a senior with limited mobility, as you can do it all sitting down, and take your time writing all day or for just a few minutes a day.

Paul,

I am so sorry that you are struggling with such serious health issues at this time of your life, Paul. I only know you through your posts, our limited correspondence, and your music, but that is enough for me to confidently say that I know you to be a man of faith, courage, and character, all of which will carry you through this difficult trial.

I always enjoy your music and look forward to your next piece; your skills with the virtual orchestra grow with each new effort. Courage, and all my best wishes to you, my friend.

Tom