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  3. Sul G instruments ?

  • Sul G instruments ?

    J
    J
    Hello everybody,

    Is there instruments ready to play i.e "sul G" violins ? Are the samples recorded on different strings and/or can we know which string is used for each note ?

    Sorry for my frenchy english [:O]ops:
  • J
    J
    So, Is it a stupid question or no "kind of sul G" instruments for this library ?
  • H
    H
    No stupid question, Jeff.

    Generally there are no dedicated "sul" recordings at the moment.
    Our mainfocus for the ensemble strings was to achieve homogen transitions between the different registers (strings).

    That means, there is a complex organized structure for each individual musician when he has to alter the strings. So not all stringplayers of a section are changing strings at the same key, it's stretched normaly over 3 semitones. First key 30-40% of the players change strings, second key next 30% etc.

    Same principle is also used for bow changes for the long ensemble-sustains, to hide bow changes effectively.

    best wishes
    Herb
  • T
    T
    I'd like to see sul G instruments too, or sul anything else. Is it planned for the symphonic cube?

    Herb, I'm kind of confused as to what you're saying. Are you saying different string players change strings on different notes? Is that how the current legato samples were recorded?

    Anthony Lombardi
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    @tonylombardi said:

    I'd like to see sul G instruments too, or sul anything else.
    How about sul-1st-valve trumpet? LOL [:)] Or sul-left-stick snare drum?

    Seriously though, I look forward to the sul string sections. As an orchestrator it would allow me to have more choices as to the string.

    HERB and VSL team, programming tip... how about having the MOD wheel control 4-different keyswitches on a LEGATO VIOLINS patch? Each of the 4 zones would switch the next note to one of the four available strings on the Violins. It would be like bow-angle control for string switching.

    Evan Evans
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    I
    As far as I am informed -please let me know if Iam wrong- there must be some confusion in this thread. "Sul G" is only meant to ask the violin players to play on the lowest string (G), passages which could be also be played on the D or even A string. This is the conclusion which I have made by reading orchestral scores. Another thing is to be playing identical notes on different strings - in different positions (altra corda-Lagenwechsel), which is normally never indicated in any string scores, but made up by the players themselfs. I did play the violin for 7 years, but it was 50 years ago......so I will ask a friend which is concert master in a sinfonie orchestra if I am really correct.

    Iwan
    http://www.iwanroth-sax.com
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    @Another User said:

    "Sul G" is only meant to ask the violin players to play on the lowest string (G), passages which could be also be played on the D or even A string


    yes, I've asked this question because of "Adagio for Strings" by Samuel Barber. As a piano player I don't care about choosing the strings and even legato [:)]

    But !
  • N
    N
    It's a different sound, Iwan, and you can do that on every string on every string instrument. On cello, for instance, the C string sounds grittier than the G and D, and the A string is brighter and somewhat more strident - as a general description, not in any negative ways. Plus the sound gets a little less resonant as you go up the fingerboard, although high cellos can be very lush, so you have to listen to it to understand the difference.

    Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but the portmento violins would have to be sul whatever string they're recorded on, right? That could be a partial answer.
  • I
    I
    Nick,

    I think you did misunderstand my post. I did write that SUL G only meant to tell a violin player he has to play only on the G string, and this is actually what it doe mean. In order to be sure, I did consult several music dictionaries.....
    [[;)]]

    Maybe I could add that to make a string library with absolutely every note of a string instrument played on all possible positions, e.g on all possible strings would be quite a task......and would not make any sense since the change of position depends on many factors - technical and musical - which to master are part of the many years of studies for the player. I do not want to guess or calculate, but I think there must be a very big amount of combination to go from one note to another, using different strings in different positions. It would probably need 1.000.000 samples onlyfor the violins , in order to cover all, with all possible articulations. The violin cube..........

    Iwan [8-)]
  • N
    N
    Actually I should have directed that post to JeffPO6.

    In any case, I agree 100% that sul G samples would be way over the top. When you want that kind of subtlety, it's time to call in a few real string players to layer on top of the VSL!
  • J
    J
    Well,

    Working on the "Adagio for Strings" example, I'd really like to hear these 2 "sul G" bars, with and without "sul G".


    [8-)]
  • T
    T
    Sul G isn't that over the top at all.
    Garritan's Orchestral Strings has them. In that library they're just called Sul Altra Corda. With another string.
    Sul G is probably the most common one. Jeff didn't ask for Sul D, A or E.

    Anthony Lombardi
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    @tonylombardi said:

    Sul G isn't that over the top at all.
    Anthony Lombardi


    I do agree, it is not that much over the top, as long as you do not want include every note transition in every possible string combination. But high notes on the lowest string, especially on Violine G string, would be a request for me too.

    Iwan
  • N
    N
    Okay, it's under the top. I can now officially Not Even Use the VSL until I have Sul Gs. What could those Austrians have been thinking?!

    Seriously, to me this is a subtle technique compared to many others. Open strings, sardines, harmonics, sul tasto, sul ponticello, and so on come way before that in my list.

    And why just sul G and not the other strings? Why just violins?
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    @Nick Batzdorf said:


    Seriously, to me this is a subtle technique compared to many others. Open strings, sardines, harmonics, sul tasto, sul ponticello, and so on come way before that in my list.



    [:D] Do you want them with olive oil or grilled [*-)]:

    Sorry, no, now seriously; The "sul G playing" on violins is very often used in the standard literature of famous composers and is a very typical effect. One of the famous examples is Maurice Ravel's orchestration of "Pictures" of an Exhibition 6. movement called "Samuel Goldenberg und Schmuyle" If you listen to it, you will understand. The effect is not only the sound of the G string, but of course if you play over an octave range on one string the result is lots of portamentis.

    Iwan
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    @Iwan Roth said:

    The "sul G playing" on violins is very often used in the standard literature of famous composers and is a very typical effect.
    Then I must be really famous, because I tell the string players what strings to play almost 40% of the time. I also occasionally write in which valves to use for the brass, and fingerings for the woodwinds maybe 5% of the time. The brass with their unique structure of partials combined with their few valves, typically allows for as many as 5 permutations for each note getting progressively more dense in permutations on the upper ranges. And some fingerings against other fingerings can be so dramatic that just about anyone, even with untrained ears, can hear the difference. Of course I only write those in in slower passages where 1) it'll be heard enough to warrant it 2) it'll be reasonable enough for the player to use it.

    As someone who is a multi-instrumentalist, I find it important "get involved" in the performance of my music by writing beyond simply just the notes, articulations, expressions, and dynamics. I have requested certain mouthpieces on occasion as well.

    I grew up playing Violin, Trumpet, Flute, Piano, Drums, Clarinet and Saxophone, as well as synth (but of course).

    I think, although definately unreasonable, that Violins (but maybe even more importantly teh solo violin) sampled such that every note within an octave or two between each and every string and back, would be great. It would give us MIDI guys the ability to have multiple choices for each note destination as well so that we could have the same line performed 4, 5 6+ times each, subtly different. But for those who know WHY to write "sul" any string, they're the ones who are going to understand how to use such an instrument to it's best. It is simultaneously something that affects performance and tone. As a composer I find the choice of string as important as the choice of harmonic fingering, which of course in real classical music MUST be specified.

    Evan Evans
  • W
    W
    It looks like Evanevans is in the notational tradition of Mahler, who wanted to specify everything (and would have made a great - but very demanding - orchestral sampler composer) as opposed to J.S. Bach, who sometimes didn't even bother to specify INSTRUMENTS.
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    @William said:

    It looks like Evanevans is in the notational tradition of Mahler, who wanted to specify everything (and would have made a great - but very demanding - orchestral sampler composer) as opposed to J.S. Bach, who sometimes didn't even bother to specify INSTRUMENTS.
    LOL. Oh. That is great. Well said William. You've got me rolling on the ground laughing. What a funny comparison at two opposite ends of the spectrum of two of the most accomplished composers of music int eh history of mankind. It just shows that nothing really matters. Maybe people like Mahler and I need more spice to polish our meager piddlings, and people like Bach needed only to notate the pitches and rhythm because his ideas were so astounding. You know, "Blah" expressed very elegantly by Mahler can sound quite good!

    Evan Evans
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    @Another User said:

    As a composer I find the choice of string as important as the choice of harmonic fingering, which of course in real classical music MUST be specified.

    Which kind of “classical” music do you mean? Composers from the so called classical period did NOT write any fingerings for string players in there scores. It did start in the late romantic.20 century composers do sometime. Bartok did in his String Quartets but in Stavinsky’s “Rite of Spring” and also “Firebird” scores there is not one single indication about fingering for the strings.
    Here some elementary info:
    The highest note apparently available on a violin is all four fingers pressed down on the E-string (sounding a B). However this is only the highest note in 1st-position. A higher note can be achieved by sliding the hand up the neck of the violin and pressing the fingers down at this new position. In 1st position, the first finger on the E string gives an F or F#. Pressing the first finger on a G is called going in to 2nd-position. 3rd position is achieved when the first finger presses down on an A, and so on. The upper limit of the violin's range is largely determined by the skill of the player, and a good player could easily get more than 2 octaves out of each string. Violinists often change positions on the lower strings even though this seems unnecessary. This is done to produce a particular timbre or to handle a piece which would otherwise require fast switching of strings.


    Ande here a question?
    Suppose a violin player plays an A3 in 5th position on the G string. How many other possibilities a violin player would have to play the same note on his violin? You do the math – and Herb the samples [8-)]


    Iwan
    http://www.iwanroth-sax.com
    The only thing I do know for sure, is that I do not know much
  • E
    E
    Iwan,

    I am not referring to the highest note on the Violin. I am referring to the highest harmonics onthe Violin. And the fingerings are demanded as there are many ways to produce the same harmonic, such as "Touch 4" etc. In fact there is even ways to achieve artificial harmonics both through odd "Touch" combinations, and even in doubling back teh harmonic series to get a harmonic of a "stud" note. Very very complex stuff, especially on teh physics side of things, but some players know how to do them, and the more knowledeable the player the more "lost" they are going to be when you just notate a little circle above your note. In some cases there are as many as 8 ways to play the same harmonic, for instance on a Cello.

    Furthermore, I was referring to the difference between Brass fingerings for the same note being easily discernible, not Strings. And the untrained ears I am speaking of must have an IQ of above 80 to hear it. But that pretty much covers everyone not in an institution.

    The classical era I speak of is the era where harmonics came into common repertoire. Late 18th Century, early 20th. Stravinsky did specify the fingerings of all harmonics, sometimes with the exception of glissando harmonics which were his invention.

    Evan Evans