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    I really enjoy and am inspired by the demos by the fine composers on this site, but a couple of the new demos seemed a little mysterious so I thought I'd mention Kentaro Sato's which I thought had a great ambience and a beautiful sound - it reminded me of some of the great Mancini scores but with an interesting original quality and wonderful orchestral sound that was handled extremely skillfully.

    Also my own demos which are not really film music style but maybe of a little interest. The "Invocation and Dance" is from a fifteen minute piece the demo is the last four minutes of. The Fanfare was mainly an exercise in using the VSL brass, mainly marcato sounds. The song "Birthday" is part of a cycle that features the fine New York soprano, Lori Trustman.

    William Kersten
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    your demo, the first one fanfare something? What reverbs have you used on that one?
    It doesn't sound "hollywood" enough. Not that it has to do so...

    But how does people get "that hollywood sound"?
    Is it the reverb...?
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    What's a "Hollywood sound" ? Why don't you find your sound ?

    [:)]
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    Audun,

    To be honest a lot of the works here don't fully achieve the Hollywood Sound. But they are close. The tricks are in the:

    1) Orchestration
    2) Motivic Composition
    3) Reverb

    The hardest to master being the Orchestration. There are specific methods utilized by the top Hollywood orchestrators that are no small feat. The level of craftsmanship is of the highest order on this planet. Luckily I am a Hollywood orchestrator trained by one, so I have a good grasp on it. If you ever want some tips let me know. One of the best tips I can give you is to make sure half the orchestra is playing at all times even if it's subtle. if you find that the composition doesn't call for that, then rethink your composition so that it will support it. The hollywood sound can only be achieved with orchestrations applied to compositions deserving of a Hollywood orchestration. Look to masters of such craftsmanship such as Jerry Goldsmith, Alan Silvestri, Elmer Bernstein, and Bernard Herrmann. But avoid John Williams as tempting as it may be, as Williams' scores are created with a great deal of personal and unique complexity, most of which is more work than is necessary to produce the same sound actually. Most orchestrators and composers in Hollywood are adhering to the Nadia Boulangier school of technique which is second generation Rimsky-Korsakov. The standard for simplistic writing while achieving complex results with ironclad orchestration is "The Rite Of Spring" by Igor Stravinsky, a student of Nadia Boulangier. Boulangier and Korsakov both tought how to achieve complex sounding works with the simplest and easiest playing techniques.

    Motivic composition is a trademark of Hollywood scores. The motives can be thematic or simply idiosyncratic technique (i.e.: the score to "Psycho" which is non-thematic and pushes the motivic concept of teh playing technique (strings atonal) as the repeating element in the film).

    As far as reverb, this is a very hard problem to solve. Generally having things QUITE wet is preferred, but with some pre-delay for distance and between 2.4 and 3.9 seconds of tail. Non-linear with lot's of density. Most of the verb needs to be between 0.4 and 1.8second into the tail so as to be non-obtrusive. AltiVerb is one of the finest sound space simulators available, however at this time there still is not a perfect Impulse Response available. I go back and forth between the Amsterdam Concertbauw, Vredenburg, and Castle De Haar Chapel.

    Generally mixing is not a part of the Hollywood sound except that the strings are usually not "hot", meaning they are smooth and silky (hi-cut), and the percussion is VERY distant. I say mixing is not a part of the Hollywood sound because all you need to do is capture the large orchestra in basic groups and solve some technical issues. But with synth of course, you need to make sure your mix sounds real, so mixing synth realizations becomes also an important part of this process. An essential part, that needs to be perfect before moving to higher goals such as achieving the "Hollywood sound".

    Evan Evans

    P.S. Although I was in a hurry, and was using only the First Edition in Logic which I had used for only 2 weeks previous, my demos online here for a documentary I scored called "American Almanacs" are fairly good examples of attempting the Hollywood Sound. Simon Raven has done a swell job as well. Oh, and I didn't have the performance set yet (ie: legato insts) either.
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    Evan,

    You raise an interesting point re the Boulanger approach and, Le Sacre. I wonder if you wouldn't mind expanding a bit, especially on the half the orchestra playing idea? Were you referring to something closer to tutti, for lack of a better term, or pointillism, etc?
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    @Another User said:

    I wonder if you wouldn't mind expanding a bit, especially on the half the orchestra playing idea?
    It helps to have at least 5 different ideas happening at the same time, even if the other 4 support the first. Never leave any idea naked. Compositionally it needs to be blanketed in at least 4 other simultaneous concepts. It's important to think of music at this point as engineering and less as music. That's part of the craft. The art is music. The craft is design.

    Now once you have the coveted 5 component design, the next step is applying it to the orchestra in a method which sounds most impressive. After all film music is meant to be dramatic. And so typically the most dramatic, hence the best, film music is intending to be most impressive. Impressive and dramatic here are identical in meaning. Even the simplest 5 component compositional phrase needs the most impressive orchestration even if the end result is subtlety, or subdued in nature. But even subtly needs to be most impressive. Quickly, the word "most", every time I use it is absolutely essential. It sounds weird to continually be saying "most" impressive, but that's the entire point. It's why the orchestrators are the top in the world. They are applying a near unbeatable orchestration to your composition. Contrary to the belief that orchestration is a subjective set of techniques, in fact for someone who has a grasp of all the techniques it becomes quite clear that there is indeed a best way of doing things. "Le Sacre" is a case in point.

    continued in next post (for some reasons posts must be so much shorter these days) ...
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    ... Continued from above:

    Contrary to the belief that orchestration is a subjective set of techniques, in fact for someone who has a grasp of all the techniques it becomes quite clear that there is indeed a best way of doing things. "Le Sacre" is a case in point.

    So back to the orchestrational application of the 5 component composition, in a sense you need to orchestrate each component separately or tie them together with a kind of blurring. That is up to the sophistication level that the orchestrator believes will work against a given film based on the composition. For the best compositions, an orchestrator can trust in the idea, and merely does some fine tuned mapping. These types of compositions are the ultimate in a composer's quest. Compositions that cannot be reduced away from the orchestra. Compositions fundamentally based on idiosyncratic orchestral technique. For instance, try playing the following reduced on a piano:
    Brass Quartet: "Suppression" by Evan Evans
    It cannot be done. That is because the composition itself is inherent to the instruments that it is written for. This is one of the reasons why I say to shy away from John Williams. he does not employ non-reduceable composition. Non-reduceable composition validates the use of the orchestra. Reduceable composition is vague, and relies heavily on orchestration. In other words, the goal of orchestration is achieved when the composition doesn't need any. That said, it's still important to get the composition/orchestration to adhere to the "most" impressive techniques of texturing and coloration. So, in order to be a non-reduceable composer you need to first come from a place of orchestrational mastery. "Le Sacre" should put any skepticism to rest regarding this philosophy. A quick listen will result in the understanding that Stravinsky fully understood orchestration before writing the first note.

    I am available for master classes, as has been posted on my website for 3 years:
    Master Classes with Evan Evans

    Yours truly,
    Evan Evans
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    Evan Evans:-Luckily I am a Hollywood orchestrator trained by one, so I have a good grasp on it.
    Yes you do!

    You, matt1 and kentaro have accomplished something really good!
    I'll ask you when I get problems with any reverbs and such... [:D]

    Wonderful explinations!
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    @evanevans said:


    Well maybe you are leading yourself in the right direction. For instance, when you listen to Le Sacre you can hear what seem to be unbelievably dense and sophisticated woodwind noodling. Well it turns out that each one of those parts is incredibly easy to play, almost lays on the instrument like a practice exercise for a high school orchestra. truly amazing use of the Korsakov/Boulangier technique of doing complex ideas as easy as they could be played. It has a lot to do with the architecture of how you divide lines. Unfortunately I cannot give example here because a simple thing I can whistle would take a long time to illustrate using text or even a notation program. But suffice to say if you just play each part of the Le Sacre individually, I think you'll get a 1st class education..


    Evans,

    This statement is definitely completely wrong. The Sacre is very difficcult to play for all members of an orchestra and very difficult to conduct for a conductor. Having a high shool orchestra playing the Sacre would be like a MacDonalds cook cooking a meal for the queen of England. Strawinsky himself was destroying practically every intrerpretation of the Sacre, saying the musician where not good enough to play it. By the way; Strawinsky did not like Hollywood Film music at all. he was offered enormous amounts of money to write scores for Hollywood films, money which he could use, because he lost all his rights from his famous works while leaving the Soviet Union, but he allways clearly did refuse.


    By the way, I am a big fan of your father, and I had the privilege to hear him several time live and to meet him personally. He was not only a genius, but also a very nice and modest man.


    Best wishes

    Iwan Roth
    among others: former professor at Indiana University and the Paris Conservatory of music

    http://www.iwanroth-sax.com
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    You are right Evan, Simon Ravn is a good example of hollywood orchestration, I just didn't hear it until now, the song...(shame on me)



    Topic: User demo by Simon Ravn.
    You'll find detailed programming information in our forum .

    Where can I find this...?
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    http://community.vsl.co.at/viewtopic.php?p=1699
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    @evanevans said:

    when you listen to Le Sacre you can hear what seem to be unbelievably dense and sophisticated woodwind noodling. Well it turns out that each one of those parts is incredibly easy to play, almost lays on the instrument like a practice exercise for a high school orchestra.
    This statement is definitely completely wrong. The Sacre is very difficcult to play for all members of an orchestra and very difficult to conduct for a conductor. Having a high shool orchestra playing the Sacre would be like a MacDonalds cook cooking a meal for the queen of England. Strawinsky himself was destroying practically every intrerpretation of the Sacre, saying the musician where not good enough to play it. By the way; Strawinsky did not like Hollywood Film music at all. he was offered enormous amounts of money to write scores for Hollywood films, money which he could use, because he lost all his rights from his famous works while leaving the Soviet Union, but he allways clearly did refuse.I am familiar with those stories as well. And in regards to your words that what I said is wrong: I said almost. I am not wrong. You may have mistook me. But certainly all I was doing was giving an example for others. Do you live in Los Angeles? Have you spent a decade there? I am not sure you understand that the language of Le Sacre is what is spoken here. It is so fundamental that it is even a forgotten assimilation. In any event, we were talking about the Hollywood Sound, and it's only my interpretation on what you have said here, but I don't think you exude words that show much experience with it. Every LA musician in the union plays Le Sacre-like music natively. It's our language. (I'm trying to say this without giving any offense, because I think you are a very interesting person and I have very much enjoyed all your posts and sharing our experiences on the board together.)

    As it turns out, taking your analogy further, The Queen Of England sits in every seat of the orchestra in all the orchestra's of LA. And I am not talking about audience members. I am talking about the musicians. LA musicians are the top of the top. Not necessarily the concert musicians ... the session musicians. They are the real brainiacs and soldiers of music. There is nothing they cannot solve, nothing they cannot play. If there is, than they don't get hired again. Very few have any vanity. Their pleasure is derived from being hired again and again.

    However you are most certainly correct in appending what I have said with the importance of a great conductor. I certainly never said that Le Sacre is easy to play. Oh absolutely not. (I hope I didn't come off sounding liek I said that.) But any one instrument is far from being as difficult as it sounds. The choice of key and corresponding instrument shows the thoughtfulness and respect for the philosophies of Korsakov and Boulangier.

    I suppose I should have mentioned that although there is a lot to learn from Le Sacre, that it is impractical to write that way for long passages on a tight film schedule. And indeed about 8% of Le Sacre are examples of extremes in ranges and technicality. But the other 92% is good enough to set an example by.

    continued below:
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    @Iwan Roth said:

    By the way, I am a big fan of your father, and I had the privilege to hear him several time live and to meet him personally. He was not only a genius, but also a very nice and modest man.
    Ah. Thanks so much. Unfortunately I never knew him. My career in music is entirely coincidental, as I was not exposed especially to music after he died and definitely not before he did. I have distinct memories of why I went into music and it had nothing to do with my father. EXCEPT, what is really amazing is that the propensity may have been entirely genetic. So much was passed on to me through just genetics. When I listen to his music I have a particular innate understanding that other jazz scholars are fascinated to hear descriptions about. It seems we think/thought alike. Thank you for being there for my father at some of his performances. I listen to him all the time and I even went through my own personal exploration stage of his music and his life (opening boxes and looking through artifacts). But I certainly envy those who knew him more than I did, which is just about anyone who ever met him. [:)]

    As far as modesty goes, that has never been one of my traits. I love my music, I enjoy creating music that I love, I like myself, I like talking, and I like talking about myself, my music, and my innovative perspectives. The good news is that when I'm dead no one wil have to hear from me anymore. But while I'm here I intend to be quite a contributor, in all respects.

    If my dad could be considered cool and quiet, then I am wired and bold. Nothing held back here. I give my inner consciousness to the world ... for those who give 10¢ anyway.

    [H]

    Evan Evans
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    Funny, my favorite subject is myself too! [6]
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    He he. Why exist right?
    [:)]
    Evan Evans
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    @Another User said:

    I am familiar with those stories as well. And in regards to your words that what I said is wrong: I said almost . I am not wrong. You may have mistook me. But certainly all I was doing was giving an example for others. Do you live in Los Angeles? Have you spent a decade there? I am not sure you understand that the language of Le Sacre is what is spoken here. It is so fundamental that it is even a forgotten assimilation. In any event, we were talking about the Hollywood Sound, and it's only my interpretation on what you have said here, but I don't think you exude words that show much experience with it. Every LA musician in the union plays Le Sacre-like music natively. It's our language. (I'm trying to say this without giving any offense, because I think you are a very interesting person and I have very much enjoyed all your posts and sharing our experiences on the board together.)


    Evan

    No, I do not live in Los Angeles, I live in France, south of France, in the coutryside, when I am looking out the window, I do not see any skyskrapers, but cows, horses and beautifull threes. I am Swiss citizen and was born only about 120 miles away from the house the Sacre was written. I think I have to put this clear, because by reading your post, one could think the Sacre was composed in Hollywood, but it was not: it was written in Switzerland close to Montreux. I do not write this to offend you in anyway, but as an old man, I may know things, from first hand, better than you can.
    Also the so called "technique" of the Sacre has to be looked at in very critical way, since I have heard personally Igor Stravinsky saying that he did not use any technique for the Sacre, but just did write down what he did hear inside. Of course he said this 50 years after having written the piece, so he may did not remember [;)] As for the Analizing of the Sacre, I do not think this is the exclusivity of Los Angeles. Actually from the Hollywood film scores I did hear, which are partly inspired and partly literally stolen from Sacre, I must say that I am not convinced at all. besides the fact that some of this composers are perect craftmans, it seams to me, that from a purely artistic point of view, they did (miss-)used this work for the purpose of sound effects, but there is absolutey nothing from the spirit and the genius of the music of Strawinsky in them.

    I know that there some great musician in Los Angeles, and that for some reasons it is still the mecca of movies. But believe me Evan, there are also some great musician, as good as the ones in Los Angeles, in Vienna, Berlin, Amsterdam, Paris and in many other places........You are not the only one who seam to think that everything which has some kind of importance comes from Hollywood, and I finish my post by writing again: you are definitely wrong!

    Iwan
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    @evanevans said:

    As far as modesty goes, that has never been one of my traits. I love my music, I enjoy creating music that I love, I like myself, I like talking, and I like talking about myself, my music, and my innovative perspectives.

    Hehe Evan, no need for all those words. The paragraph can be shortened into four words... "I am an American!" [:D]
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    All 300 million of us wear Bermuda shorts and Hawaiian print shirts, we're loud and obnoxious, we tell everyone our life story before saying hello, we treat people as our servants...and of course we all share the same appalling political views.

    [[;)]]
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    @Another User said:

    All 300 million of us wear Bermuda shorts and Hawaiian print shirts, we're loud and obnoxious, we tell everyone our life story before saying hello, we treat people as our servants...and of course we all share the same appalling political views.

    Are all 300 million American now republicans........???? [:O]ops:
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    Are alle American now republicans........???? [:O]ops: