Vienna Symphonic Library Forum
Forum Statistics

182,995 users have contributed to 42,272 threads and 254,969 posts.

In the past 24 hours, we have 4 new thread(s), 10 new post(s) and 45 new user(s).

  1. Home
  2. Orchestration & Composition
  3. Your Music
  4. Bernard Herrmann

  • Bernard Herrmann

    W
    W
    I thought I should post this on a new thread since Dave created a separate thread for the great Korngold (another of my other favorite composers) and I don't want to sidetrack that.

    Evan,

    I meant to respond to what you said about "Concerto Macabre" and was delayed - you are so right! This is the most brilliant piece in a weird and atmospheric film starring the interesting, lesser known actor Laird Cregar. It shows above all the virtuosic ability of Herrmann to provide anything a film demands and go about 200% over. The scene where Cregar is playing the concerto as the concert hall burns down around him - unforgettable, especially with Herrmann's powerful music, which gradually loses all the accompaniment and ends with only the pounding, obsessive tritone chords on the ff piano solo... sheer genius.
  • D
    D
    William,

    Small favor. In listing BH's films can you let us know if to your knowledge they're available at video outlets?

    I would really like to see the one mentioned above. It's not that I won't dig around but if you already know lot's of folks will probably take a look at these interesting works.

    Dave Connor
  • W
    W
    Evan (sorry- another necessary post),

    Please suggest some topics of conversation about Herrmann. Like his best scores, or anything you can think of. It is obvious you are a real source of information and fascinating insights on him, and I am a great admirer of his work.
  • W
    W
    Dave,

    The fact is this film, "Hangover Square" has not been available for some time. Probably for the same reason that Val Lewton's films have not been available (though that may be changing soon) - Ted Turner. He owns lock stock and barrel all old RKO films. And he has been hoarding them so people will watch them on his TV stations. But the Lewton/Roy Webb films are coming out again at least on VHS. And maybe "Hangover Square" will be released sometime. I have a VHS copy though, somewhere. If only I could find it...
  • W
    W
    Because I am not working right now and can't wait for a reply, I will answer -

    The Greatest Herrmann Scores:

    Vertigo. The single greatest work of film music by any composer to one of the best movies ever made. It is difficult to discuss this work since it so affected me in every way possible. What I notice most about it, is that the music is so much a part of the most profound themes of the film - which are mythic in origin - that it is inseparable. It creates the movie as much as the filmed scenes and the actors do. This is the high water mark of film music, and what every composer who writes for the medium may hope to emulate in some small way. If he is lucky. The film is Hitchcock's masterpiece and Herrmann's - the greatest of all film composers - reaction to that.

    Psycho. The most radical work of powerful atonal music ever composed in the reactionary world of film music. While most composers are busily thinking of how to create a new "hit" theme, Herrmann was composing music more powerful than Berg, Ligetti or Penderecki in the midst of an extremely commercial movie. His score was so strong it shocked an entire nation of film-goers and permanently imprinted itself upon the consciousness of the world.

    (I am only getting started - Evan help me.)
  • E
    E
    That god d*mn scene at the end of hangover Square is the most emotional effective scene I can watch. I am always in lung breath gasping tears. And for a deranged psycho too! IT just hits so hard that it's all about the music and damned be other people. And Herrmann played it so much to the hilt that I felt it was a film to accompany his music. It was like a low budget film accompanying a high budget score.

    I can't say enough about this score and that film. That actor was fantastic as well.

    That end scene is remarkable. The best in herrmanns career. I even liken it to one notch better than end f Citizen kane which was so elusive. This one was direct and poignant. STRONG.

    Evan Evans
  • E
    E
    last edited
    last edited

    @Another User said:

    Psycho. The most radical work of powerful atonal music ever composed in the reactionary world of film music. While most composers are busily thinking of how to create a new "hit" theme, Herrmann was composing music more powerful than Berg, Ligetti or Penderecki in the midst of an extremely commercial movie. His score was so strong it shocked an entire nation of film-goers and permanently imprinted itself upon the consciousness of the world.

    (I am only getting started - Evan help me.)
    Well, let's not forget that he wasn't composing great music for that film. it was mostly already written in his early 20s as a concert work called SINFONIETTA FOR STRINGS. But his genius was creating the most effective film music scene in cinema history with a score comprised of needle-drop pieces he wrote in college. how the f*** does one pull a rabbit like that out of a hat. And if anyone has seen the original scores, again they are in pen, and amazingly there are about 40% recycled cues, just at 4 times slower speed an in mutes, and in tremolo and sh** like that. or you'll see a direct onion-skin copy with a different unsettling ending bar. he wrote maybe 100 bars of music for that film. the rest was craft and drag-and-drop.

    But that was his genius. He would walk into a room with a score filled with whole notes, and by the end he had instructed everyone to go into 3/4, to switch parts with the violas, cut this, add that, repeat this, punctuate that, etc etc.

    he understood ALL the elements of music down to their core level, so he could actually modularize the whole thing. It all cross-integrated with each other to the point where you could take a percussion part an d put it on the strings and it would work. And he did it because it worked. he served the film first. he was up there conducting and looking at it, and MOSTLY composing on the spot by making his modifications.

    To be honest, this is the power of pen and paper (or pencil and paper for the rest of us). The power to make abstract instructions to a group of robots who can execute them with emotion and indivisibility. it need only be in English. If you get to the top of such a craft you need only walk into a session with blank paper. AND HE DID THAT on occasion. I swear. I have seen the archives and seen cues here and there that you could tell were written on the spot, ... well let's say I could tell. I know his handwriting.

    how about this fact that you can only get by studying his written hand:
    he often wrote in 2/2 or 4/2 or 8/2 or even 4/1 to save the time of having to write stems and fill in note heads!!!!!!!

    Try getting that kind of instruction from listening to a CD.

    [[:|]]

    Evan Evans
  • P
    P
    Its interesting insomuch as WHY Hitchcock actually wanted to make Bloch's book Psycho into a film in the first place.

    Anyone know why and what Hitch's original intention was? And who helped to talk him out of it?
  • W
    W
    A fascinating statement, Evan, and I agree completely. Also with your intensity in describing Hangover Square.

    I believe that Hitchcock at the time of Psycho wanted to compete with the low budget horror films that were making a lot of money with very simple little productions. He also had set up his very efficient TV production unit, and wanted to use it to do a film of this kind. And Bloch's Psycho was suitable for it. Fortunately, they got Joseph Stefano, a brilliant writer, to transform the ordinary potboiler novel into a brooding meditation on madness. And Hitchcock then proceeded to go nuts with it himself.

    By the way, if you ever want to reaffirm your disgust with film critics, read the ORIGINAL reviews that came out immediately after Psycho's release. I once went to a library, and dug out all the major reviews from the time. Every big-shot critic panned it, saying exactly the same thing: "Hitchcock bears down too hard... sadistic..." etc. etc. And then, ten years later, these nobodies were comparing new films unfavorably to the classic Psycho.

    Critics - the scum of the earth.
  • P
    P
    last edited
    last edited

    @William said:

    Every big-shot critic panned it, saying exactly the same thing: "Hitchcock bears down too hard... sadistic..." etc. etc. Critics - the scum of the earth.


    Whats really scary, is I remember reading these sort of reviews at the time, and I was like 9 or something. I thought it was normal, but it turns out it was a funny household I grew up in (my second name is Norman). But anyway...

    Money for Alfred Hitchcock at the time, was one of the major driving factors and he needed a hit. One of his original ideas to was appeal to the early sixties teen angsts by making the film and blitzing the drive-in movie theatres with it.

    But as you quite rightly say Bill, Joseph Stephano and indeed partly Bernard Herrmann changed what could have been just another teen horror flick into what its become today. A lot of it is certainly down to the score and as a sidenote, I think the 'actor' Evan is referring to is Anthony Perkins. Almost a cliche now, the high pitched strings in Pschyo are usually what people use as a musical reference point for the film, but for me, it is the music that accompanies the scene where Janet Leigh is blindly driving through the rain, finally winding up at Bates Motel. Fantastic music!

    Evan, when you say the end scene in a previous post in this thread, are you talking about Hangover Square or Psycho. [*-)]
  • W
    W
    That is a really good point, Paul, about the driving scene. If you analyze it, all that is on the screen is shots of a woman driving a car. Little aspects of them - it getting darker, starting to rain, wipers moving irritatingly - give it a hint of a mood, but the entire psychology and meaning of the scene comes from the music. She is a "driven" woman - she felt the need to steal the money, and is agitated, thinking obsessively, trying to figure out what to do - many elements suggested by the story context, but none actually present in the images. All of them are in the music.
  • E
    E
    last edited
    last edited

    @PaulR said:

    But as you quite rightly say Bill, Joseph Stephano and indeed partly Bernard Herrmann changed what could have been just another teen horror flick into what its become today. A lot of it is certainly down to the score and as a sidenote, I think the 'actor' Evan is referring to is Anthony Perkins. Almost a cliche now, the high pitched strings in Pschyo are usually what people use as a musical reference point for the film, but for me, it is the music that accompanies the scene where Janet Leigh is blindly driving through the rain, finally winding up at Bates Motel. Fantastic music!

    Evan, when you say the end scene in a previous post in this thread, are you talking about Hangover Square or Psycho. [*-)]
    hangover Square.

    For me, in Psycho, the two best cues are MOPPING UP, and MADHOUSE. With MADHOUSE being the best cue in the film. And the shrieking strings are so effective of course. But there's nothign like when MADHOUSE comes in after Perkins says, "Oh, you mean a instituion? A Madhouse?" as he leans forward with aggression. Suddenly eating apeanut butter and jelly sandwich in teh back of a middle of nowhere hotel with dead animals surrounding you starts to seem a little stupider than taking a shower with your eyes closed.

    Oh. Here's another Herrmann piece of trivia. He always tried ot name his cues with one word names. This was so that he could prove to himself that he found the most fundamental reason for the cue and that it was the same as the title. He sometimes used the word THE, but usually just called a cue something like KNIFE, MADHOUSE, SUBMARINE, OCTOPUS, etc.

    Evan Evans
  • P
    P
    Good stuff Evan.

    What about Cape Fear, released a year after Psycho. Thats an opening motif to remember.
  • W
    W
    Evan,

    Interesting that you would point out "Madhouse" - I agree that is a haunting section of music, truly brilliant and it is my favorite cue also. BTW is there a recording available of Sinfonietta for Strings?

    Thanks for that info about Herrmann liking to use single-name titles. That is fascinating - that if such a thing could be done he would know he had gotten to an elemental level.

    That reminds me - just today I saw a quote from him I hadn't seen before -in a recent book on James Stewart. The author quoted Herrmann (I don't have it before me but will paraphrase) to the effect that he had dredged "Vertigo" from his subconscious mind, because the story so affected him it was different from any others.
  • W
    W
    A couple others of my other favorite Herrmann scores -

    "On Dangerous Ground" which is a somewhat less known but great film noir with Ida Lupino, Robert Ryan. This has the famous "Death Hunt" section with a fabulous, virtuosic use of horn section playing triplets to accompany the chase of an escaped killer in the snowy wilderness. Also, some very lyrical, tender string writing for the scenes which show the loneliness of the blind character of Ida Lupino. It is one of his best scores though no one ever seems to talk about it.

    "Jason and the Argonauts" For the Harryhausen spectacle, Herrmann was not only inspired by the great animation effects but also by the mythological subject. An example is the transformation of Hermes from an old man into a god culminating with Jason's appearance at Olympus. It starts with a quiet harp and solo woodwinds in a plaintive, sad mood. Then more of the woodwind ensemble joins in, with stronger, heavier block chords in tertiary progressions. Fanfares sound, and then all Heaven breaks loose with chimes, glockenspiel, full brass ensemble and harp glissandi. It is something only a master of both the art and technique of orchestration could ever write and it creates the entire cinematic experience as vividly as the filmed shots themselves.

    By the way a great new recording faithful to the screen tempos came out recently, conducted by Bruce Broughton with the Sinfonia of London. It is one of the best film music recordings I've ever heard, and the recording is particularly striking. The sound was delberately recorded with a very tight, clean ambience in a smaller space - not the typical "majestic" huge reverberant hall. This makes the percussion and fast attacked brass parts all the more clear and strong, and the multiple harp parts individually audible.
  • E
    E
    Sinfonietta For Strings is available on an album with a few other works I believe. It might be with a Rozsa Conerto for Timpani. But if you email me, I'll make you happy (if you're on Mac) [:)]

    Evan Evans
  • W
    W
    I crave more discussion of Bernard Herrmann! Please respond with your own ideas.

    other great scores - "Marnie." This is what Truffaut called Hitchcock's "flawed masterpiece." The film was affected by various problems (including Hitchcock trying to jump the leading lady), but Herrmann's score creates an intensely passionate effect in a story of overly Freudian psychosexual drama (about which Hitchcock said "I don't believe a word of it.") Particularly striking are the main theme for Marnie, which Herrmann pulled out all the romantic stops on, the hysterical "red" motif in shrieking woodwinds and violins for Marnie's phobia, and the horseback riding scene with its echoes of the fox hunt in the horns leading to a catastrophe as the horse falls.

    "Mysterious Island" For another spectacular Harryhausen FX fest, Herrmann did some of his most grotesque orchestrations. Particularly vivid is the writing for woodwinds in 7/4 that accompanies the fight with the giant crab. Also, some extremely atmospheric impressions of nature in turmoil, as in the tremendous evocation of the balloon in the storm at the beginning. Christopher Palmer, a fine scholar of film music, stated that while Debussy was the supreme musical interpreter of nature in repose, Herrmann was the greatest of nature in turmoil. Something like his own life, apparently.
  • E
    E
    Being dubbed the next Herrmann is easily said. But I'd love to see what you guys think of my score to HUNTING HUMANS. It was my first score where I actually did not copy or be inspired by any other scores. It was my first true score having rung out all my "works for the barrell" so to speak. Although there may be Herrmann influence, I'd prefer to think of it as, "what could someone do who takes the ball of Herrmann and continues it into the 21st century?" That's me. [:)]

    http://pro.evanevans.org/default.asp?q=f&f=%2Faudio%2FFeature%5FFilms%2FHunting%5FHumans

    Comments [*-)]:

    Evan Evans
  • M
    M
    Wow, I really forgot breathing during the last minutes of the title track... very dramatic and compelling!

    For me as a novice to filmmusic it still has some oldfashioned touch, I have to say. I really like that, but personally I donĀ“t exactly understand what details make you think that this is more 21. century than the "good old days" of filmmusic.
    Please donĀ“t take me wrong, I just didnĀ“t study filmmusic history enough to understand these connaisseur details, maybe you could enlighten me a bit.
    Compositionally for my personal taste this descending sequenced motive is repeated once too often, but this might be one of those film vs. concert things. It might work totally different in connection to the picture.

    What other tracks do you recommend listening to despite of the title track?

    Thanks for sharing,
    - Mathis
  • E
    E
    Thanks Mathis. No, my goal is to bring back the Golden Age of scoring to the Silver Screen. So I was just saying that I am like a 21st Century Herrmann, with no real twist per sey. Just what if that approach and methodology was still used today. That's the concept.

    Thank you for listening to the whole Main Titles. It apparently is what all my fans agree is one of the best cues in the film. Incidentally there is a nod to Psycho in the film. A serial Killer is waiting in a shower for a naked woman to pull back teh curtains and take her shower. He then terminates her life graphically.

    The film is about a serial killer and it is narrated by the killer and becomes a kind of philiosophy of the serial killer. "No remorse. Only strangers." etc. But the twist comes when this prolific serial killer discovers his next victim already slain by someone else who left a note for him. They eventually are pitted against each other in a final scene.

    That is the other great cue in my opinion. it's called CHECKMATE. It's right here:
    http://pro.evanevans.org/media/audio/Feature_Films/Hunting_Humans/Track%2018.mp3

    There is also an eerie cue with the WRATH theme while the serial killer is driving home through a tunnel telling us about his last kill and his next one. It's called WRATH. Here it is:
    http://pro.evanevans.org/media/audio/Feature_Films/Hunting_Humans/Track%2004.mp3

    But listen to some other tracks. This is a film music fan's dream score. Every cue is a golden nugget. I relaly hope to re-record a suite from Hunting Humans some day wih orchestra.

    Also, this was created a while ago on my OLD setup. I had I think 40 MIDI channels and a total of 128MB RAM. A lot of sounds were custom programmed by me, but mostly it was Miroslav Vitous. Sorry VSL. [:(]

    Incidentally I begin this director's next film in two weeks, "Fear of Clowns". 60 day scoring schedule. The last film was so successful that he got matching funds and pre-distribution and shot it on 35MM !!!


    Evan Evans