Human noises?

[LDT]

First of all: Hi! I am a few days away from recieving my First Edition Complete Orch Package, and I am currently sniffing around the forum in antissipation. You will most probably hear more from me [;)]

As I was listening to some recent hollywood scores (LordOfTheRings and Harry Potter) I noticed how much human noise there was during the soft passages. I am not talking about audience noise (that has been discussed here already) but just the subtil noises of a concentrated orchestra: Moving around on the chair, turning pages, heavy breathing etc.
I know that some of you will find it laughable to suggest to actually add noise to a track, but in my years of making music for commercials, I may have added (vinyl) noise to about a third of the mixes in order to make the track more believable. So to me adding noise is not a strange behavior if it suits a purpose. So, if I was to utterly convince a listener that he/she was hearing a real orchestra, a would not hessitate to add some human noises. If it was an A/B comparison of a real orch. and VSL playing a soft passage, the VSL would be easy to spot if it did not contain the human noises that the real orch would naturally have.
Has anybody here had similar thought and/or experiences?

And yes, this may be a strange first post, but somehow I sense that I can not be the only "strange" person in a forum like this [:)]

[mathis]

Welcome, LDT!
I can assure you, there are ONLY strange people here. Despite me of course.

Adding noise is not at all that strange and is discussed here quite often. I did once record a human track along a solo oboe. But I didn´t do it in the full orchestral stuff. That´s still to explore. I was sometimes thinking of really doing several tracks of foley sounds (means all this chair movements, paper movements and so forth.) but was always too lazy. I look very forward to hearing your experiments!

Bests,
- Mathis

[LDT]

Thank you Mathis, I feel at home already [[;)]]
I was actually thinking in line of: It should be quite simple for the VSL guys to (next time they have a session with more than 10 players) record a "silent performance". Meaning people "playing" a piece of music without the instruments sounding. Hmm, silent performance on the silent stage, -uh-oh he is loosing it [:D] No seriously, I think it would be wonderful to have some stereo tracks of hard working musicians but no instruments!

[William]

I agree this is a good thing to do. Mathis did an awesome job on his "hobo" solo. You should really check that out, wherever it is. Where is it Mathis? It demonstrates how significant these noises can be. But in an orchestral context they can be even more so, but very subtly. You actually "feel" a lot of breaths, but they are audible a tiny bit. Also movements, etc.

Fortunately this is something you can do yourself, sampling and layering to build up a section that can be foleyed as if watching a video of a concert performance. This may seem artificial, but it is actually a bit like reverb - it is something that is naturally present in the sound but has been cut off due to the nature of sample recording. That is why I love the VSL samples that have a little noise like the key sounds in the legato flute and bassoon, etc.

[mathis]

It´s here: http://www.audionomio.de/mp3/HoboSolo_Mix1.mp3">http://www.audionomio.de/mp3/HoboSolo_Mix1.mp3

I like the idea of section silence recordings form the silent stage. Howevery I feel it could be difficult to match the movements believably to what´s going on musically. I think it would be a matter of a lot of editing.
But not to say that it wouldn´t be worth it.

[LDT]

Ok, how about this for a quick setup of human noise: A couple of long (5 min or so) audio tracks with the most subtle noises of the kind that would be going on no matter what the music would be (breathing slightly moving position on chair, moving the foot, minor throat noises). Add to that a one-noise-per-key (88 keys) sample program so one could throw in some noise ad libs (page turning, page turning but hitting the stand with the bow ( [:O]ops: ), taking instrument up, putting instrument down etc) The musicians will know more exactly what the possible (instrument specific)noises may be.

I dont mind foleying myself, but we might as well have the noises recorded in the exact same setup as the instruments. My studio is has not a soundproof room to record in, remember these noises are very quiet.

[DG]

I would just be happy with a sample for "studio silence" as one of the strange things about listening to music created entirely with samples is that the first note happens out of nowhere.

[DaveTubaKing]

Have a listen to Andy B's "La Mer"

http://www.vsl.co.at/english/demos/Classics/Claude_Debussy/La_Mer_%2D_Jeux_de_vagues.htm

I'm sure he included background musician noise that he had recorded at a live session. You'll find the details in the long thread on this site or on the Norther Sound Forum.

DTK

[William]

DG that is a good point. It is similar to "room tone" in film sound. You must record it at the time of shooting in order to splice into sections where sync sound has been cut otherwise you get a sudden "deadness." And samples regularly have this "deadness" so it is extremely realistic to make a "room tone" of the concert hall.

Also, what LDT suggests sounds good. What I've heard the most in studio recordings is "massed breaths" at sudden loud entrances (I remember a von Karajan recording of a Bruckner symphony where the brass suddenly comes in blaring out of total silence- you can hear a huge gulp of air before it) page turns and slight "foley" rustles of clothes and/or instruments (especially in percussion sections - things being picked up and put down). But if you want a live concert effect and include also a concert hall ambiance with some audience noises, it can add even more a sense of space to the sound.

All of this comes into the arena of stopping digital things from being too perfect. Ironic how with analog, the desire was always to make it MORE perfect but with digital it is to make it LESS.

[LDT]

Yeah, today software engineers spend lots of time figuring out how to degrade audio the right way [:D]

[Dietz]

One of my favorite sayings:

"Subjective enhancement by objective deterioration!"

:-]

/Dietz

[PolarBear]

I remember one of Maarten's demos had some noise of this kind, I thought such a "performance" sample was accessable with the Pro Edition somehow? Apart from that it is really easy to get this done yourself, recording yourself on an old chair trying -not- to make noise. [:D]

PolarBear

[Rob Elliott]

I own GOS and VSL (Pro). Until now only GOS has an 'Ambient' patch. I find it quite usable.


Here's a piece I used it on (most noticeable on the beginning and end, there's a 'cough' at 1:24 or so)

http://www.robelliottmusic.com/mp3s/Romantic/L'amour%20et%20l'Honneur.mp3


Having said that, I think VSL providing to their Pro and First owners this type of patch would be terrific.

Rob

[Peter Roos]

Hi Rob,

Very effective!

I experimented with this a few years ago in The Forest Awakes

(a lot rougher and shorter than your cue - just as another example)

[Rob Elliott]

Hi Peter,

I like your piece - very magical. The Ambient sounds you use allow the music to 'spring forth' out of something other than 'nothing' (hopefully that is not too confusing). If we are imitating what 'humans' would do in a real session, then human sounds, etc are just a part of it. When they are missing, something in us says 'fake'. I really look forward to seeing what VSL can come up with.

Can you imagine this 'ambient' patch through the performance tool [:P]

Rob

[Sergino Futurino]

I think the average listeners often cannot distinguish general midi from a real orchestra but more often hate that human noise...
And musicians can really distinguish a humanized sample from a real orchestra.
So to me is a waste of time.
Sergino

[Rob Elliott]

Hi Sergino,

While I think adding noise can easily get out of control (a little is good, a lot is better syndrome [:'(] ), it really doesn't take a lot of time (2-3 minutes to call up a very small ambient patch and add a track.)

Listening to a recent cut of Yo-Yo Ma expertly playing his cello - I would very much miss his 'breathing' - especially on the most of passionate of sections of the piece. Also, on some recent woodwind solos (smaller chamber sized pieces) I have recorded some 'breaths' in just a few of the most obvious spots and it really 'breathes' life into the part - IMHO.

Again, I don't agonize over making this perfect - I am just trying to bridge the gap from samples to live - sort of like counting 1,2,3,4... and letting someone else 'think' 5 in their mind. Hope that makes sense.

Rob

[PolarBear]

To me this is a possibility to introduce the "sound" of a hall, not for having the coughs and scratches of the second trumpet player recorded. Ideally no sheets are needed to perform the music, but who got that time these days... It is about the "magic air", the sound a mic "produces" when exposed in such an enviroment. Not having noises, hating noises, most will know listening to something sounding sterile. We don't recognize the real clean kitchen in a film as a room we would live in, we miss some dirt, some mess, some "noise" to make it "real".

IMHO,
PolarBear

[Galleddrim]

Human noises, huh? Er . . . for a minute I thought you were talking about something crass. [:D] [:O]ops:

~Chris

[Koya]

Well, I am totally into the adding noises thing, except I don't thing I've sucedded at that task. I've been listening to a lot of VSL demos and I have noticed "air" on the recordings. (I believe this is produced by the microphones that are recording the session, except on midi composing there are no microphones [;)]).
So, what causes this effect? Some kind of audio capture? Reverb?

Btw: Where can I get these human noises besides from the GOS? I would love to experiment on some of the quieter passages of my music.

Thanks