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Posted on Fri, Sep 05 2008 20:19
by Nordkrog
Joined on Sun, Nov 27 2005, Posts 43
Sorry if this has been covered all ready. I searched the forum but didn't find any topics...

I'm currently writing for string quartet and is really frustrated about the legato patches. When 2 o more notes are played legato, the notes cut off very quickly. Instead of changing bow direction,the note simply stops. And when I release the note (that no longer sounds) on the keyboard, I get a short "quirk", I guess it's the beginning of the sample that is being triggered by the "note off" (it is not a release sample!).

It simply sounds horrible! Is this a bug? Are you guys working on it? Is there a secret fader/button to prevent this behaviour?

The work around is to play non-legato (make a short rest) before hitting a note that needs to be sustained for more than 2-3 seconds. Then the note will correctly be sustained with the sound of the bow changing direction one or more times. This is actually very annoying too, I think. I know it's to be realistic, but the thing is that in real life string players can keep the same direction for way longer than the VI emulate AND the string player will change direction in the best musical place, not just "where ever"... Maybe I have overlooked something. Is there a way to just sustain - unrealisticly - the notes (like an orchestral sus patch)?

Anyone?

Thanks,
Flemming
Posted on Fri, Sep 05 2008 20:38
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

Keyswitch to a sustain patch for the long notes.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Fri, Sep 05 2008 20:52
by Sampleconstruct
Joined on Tue, Jul 08 2008, Berlin, Posts 40
...the string player will change direction in the best musical place
That's actually the workaround I use for this problem - retrigger the note with a short gap before the attack in a reasonable musical spot.
Or keyswitch to a "legato on the same note" patch which contains samples with more bow changes.
Posted on Fri, Sep 05 2008 23:37
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1726

Nordkrog wrote:
Sorry if this has been covered all ready. I searched the forum but didn't find any topics...

I'm currently writing for string quartet and is really frustrated about the legato patches. When 2 o more notes are played legato, the notes cut off very quickly. Instead of changing bow direction,the note simply stops.....

Thanks, Flemming
 

Hello Flemming:

About the Legato-Articulation: Take for example the note D. The Vienna
Instrument contains from D to each note (+/- an octave) the legato
crossing sample. When you are going to change from D to G the VI
selects the corresponding legato sample (key-noise etc.) and playes it
in the right moment. Think now you are the VI. Play the chord CEG and
move then to FAC. It would be impossible for the VI to decide from which note it should change to another in this case.

So the VI can only play 1 note with legato samples - it is monophone. 

Solution:

Split up the voices and open for each voice a new VI. That's no problem because...

Even if you load the same articulation more than one time it only needs the RAM space for one.

Perhaps you think, that you can use the VI with the Violin Samples for violin 1 and violin 2 of your quartet.

This won't work - open a VI for each violin.

If you want to know some thing more about the secrets of the Vienna Instrument:

Feel free to browse around in my VI-Tutorials  

I wish a lot of success

Beat Kaufmann

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Sat, Sep 06 2008 06:58
by Nordkrog
Joined on Sun, Nov 27 2005, Posts 43
Thanks Beat for your answer.
I have not explained myself clearly. I know that it's monophonic. When I write 2 or more notes legato I mean in a row. A phrase. If I play say 4/4 BPM 60, 2 quarter notes followed by a sustained note (say 2 bars), the note will not sustain. It will cut off before and when I release the key, a small quirk arrives.
Please go through my post again and comment on the issues.

Thanks in advance.

Flemming

Posted on Sat, Sep 06 2008 07:00
by Nordkrog
Joined on Sun, Nov 27 2005, Posts 43
Thanks, yes this is what I do, but then I miss the "legato sound" off the attack + it's a less simple workflow. I also use a trombone-patch at the moment, and here I can use a legato+sus patch.
Posted on Sat, Sep 06 2008 07:54
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
Nordkrog wrote:
Thanks, yes this is what I do, but then I miss the "legato sound" off the attack + it's a less simple workflow. I also use a trombone-patch at the moment, and here I can use a legato+sus patch.

If you think the sound of the legato sus is good, then you can do the same with legato strings by putting the sus sample in the cell and then cell xFading immediately the transition has been played, just as the trombone does automatically.


Regarding the attack, the recorded one is a slurred attack. If the 2nd of your two notes is long, then this wouldn't have been slurred anyway, so the attack you want to hear may not happen in the real world anyway, so by using a sus, you are not necessarily missing anything.


I don't think that the legato sus patches work in an up-close setting, but for an orchestral trombone sitting at the back of the orchestra, you can get away with it.



DG
Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Sat, Sep 06 2008 08:50
by Nordkrog
Joined on Sun, Nov 27 2005, Posts 43
Thanks for chiming in. I will try the cell xFade thing.

However I really don't understand why the Legato patches doesn't allow long notes. As it is now, after playing in a part, I have to go through it changing the patch to a sus patch using key commands evertime the note rest more than a few seconds. ALso to avoid the strange note off sound that appears if you don't release the key before the sample ends.
Personally I would just like to play in the parts without having to spend time programming after. Normally I only use VI for mock-ups having real players to play later - especially for solo instruments and small string ensembles (like a quartet). If I need as much realism as possible without real players, I'm ok to do lots of programming, but the legato patches that just simply cuts off the held notes and introducing the loud attack sound when releasing the note is simply not very realistic!! Or very practical. I assume this to be a bug....

Maybe I should post some examples, it's difficult to explain,

:-) Flemming
Posted on Sat, Sep 06 2008 12:28
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

It's very simple; the patches cut out, because that's the length that they were recorded. The "attack" you hear when releasing the note is the release sample. If the note dies out to the length that you want, then switch the release sample off. If the note is too short, then use or xFade to a sustain. It is not a bug. It is the way that the software is designed. Whether or not this is a good thing is open to interpretation though. Smile


If you are not worried about realism then just use the sustain patches (maybe even with fast attack, if these exist) and then these issues won't slow you down when you're working.


DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Sat, Sep 06 2008 13:20
by Nordkrog
Joined on Sun, Nov 27 2005, Posts 43
Thanks DG, I understand better. I will switch off the release samples. This will help me a lot!
So it's not a bug and I have then a big wish for a future update: Please make string legato patches that will play long notes as well. I don't think it's very logical the way it is now: When playing a legato patch the VI can sustain forever (with bow changing) when you're not playing legato, but can only rest very short when playing legato. This behaviour is far from being realistic anyway, so please let me have a legato patch (because it sounds so much better than just playing a sus patch) that can keep the notes long.

I'm not worried about realism, but I like it to sound as good as possible when working and - most importantly - presenting the mock-ups to directors (I'm doing film music).

:-) Flemming
Posted on Sat, Sep 06 2008 14:43
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

It has been a feature request for many years to have all the legato notes for all instruments looped, so that you wouldn't have to worry about long notes jsut stopping. Unfortunately there have been other priorities up until now. There are many enhancements that should be made to the VI player, but I would imagine that until there are ways of making some of these things automatic, they will not be included.



DG
Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Sat, Sep 06 2008 16:23
by Nordkrog
Joined on Sun, Nov 27 2005, Posts 43
Yep, I know the limitation from the EXS libraries but thought this would have been "fixed" in the VI. Please, dear VSL team, make this happen. Even a less realistic version like the trombone legato+sus. It works wonders!

I feel kind of stupid having bought the most advanced and extremely expensive library and then not being able to just play a simple legato patch... But it shure sounds amazing if you just keep on playing, never resting on a note ;-)

Flemming
Posted on Sat, Sep 06 2008 16:32
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

I don't think that it's a question of can't be done, but more of a question of time and cost.



DG
Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Sat, Sep 06 2008 16:45
by Nordkrog
Joined on Sun, Nov 27 2005, Posts 43
Sure! Maybe Beat can chime in on this? Can we get this, please? Maybe just like the legato+sus patches? :-)
Posted on Sat, Sep 06 2008 19:09
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1726
Hi Flemming

I can't solve your situation/problem better than DG tried to do it. So the instruments react as the do.

If you want to get a "sample result" as close as possible to the reality you should change the

articulations very often. So why not - as DG recommended - changing from legato to sustained

for the final long note? If necessary: Take the legato for crossing the note but fade then with

the X-fade function from the legato- to the sustain- articulation for the final length. 

When string players play very long tones they often have the problem of a "too short bow".

The results are therefore quite often diminuendos instead of sustained notes.Try it out.

The VSL-diminuendos are very nice because most of them are starting with a sort of "belly".

The work with samples is a "continuous being ready to compromise". If something doesn't work

try with all your possibilities until you get the result (or as close as) you want to reach.

This takes a lot of time and - of course - you should know your sample library and its possibilities

very well. As an example for this:

http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/vitipstricks2/index.php#0439199ae0080e004

BTW: It isn't a good idea to switch of the release sample. Most of the articulations will stop

the very unnatural - such as legato, sustain, ...

Have a nice sunday

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Tue, Sep 09 2008 21:49
by Nordkrog
Joined on Sun, Nov 27 2005, Posts 43
Hi Beat.

Thanks a lot for your answer. And on a Sunday! You are truly dedicated :-)

I don't want to repeat myself, but I really DO think "you can solve my situation better than DG described".

All I'm asking is: Give me a Legato patch that does allow to rest forever (with or without the sound of the bow changing direction). Just like the the now famous legato+sus trombone patch. It works great, and it's automatic. Plug and play!

To be very rough: I feel the VI is a great programmers tool, but a complicated composers tool.

Of course you're right that working with samples is a compromise and you have to do excessive programming in order to make it sound as realistic as possible. But it won't hurt to have these kind of "just play" patches (hell, I thought this was one of the ideas, when you launched the VI).

The patches sounds all great and I love to have realistic sounds when I compose, but I hate the cutting off-thing - and believe me, I have never came across a player with a bow that short ;-)

The release samples being triggered after the sound has died out has really killed me, so for know I do as DG advised, namely shot of the release samples, and it does make life a bit easier.

Please please please... give me a legato+sus patch!!! You have made it with the trombone (and probably others...) Come on, copy that idea to all the other instruments. Maybe I should start a petition? Actually I know of a fellow film composer who has started to use other libraries because he got sick of loosing time programming "long" notes.

Please please please :-)

:-) Flemming

Posted on Tue, Sep 09 2008 23:58
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1726

Nordkrog wrote:
... Come on, copy that idea to all the other instruments...

Please please please :-)
:-) Flemming
 

Dear Flemming 

See this legato matter in the light of history. The Violin Sample Library is one of the early days of VSL. It was recorded to use together with the Performance Tool. Even if Herb developed a super tool at that time, he was still collecting experiences.

So the legato samples - which are a huge number of single samples - got not that optimized finish as today.

By the way: This " a bit short second note after legato" exists since this library (and others)exist.

The library was later transformed into the new VI. Perhaps Herb should have new and longer legato samples - but, he hadn't them. Further I know that it takes a lot of time to assign and connect (program) all these legato snippets with the notes befor and after. Herb showed me this work - when I was once in Vienna.

So I can't believe that he will do this job again for the mature lady "solo violin". Nevertheless, it is still one of the best and usefull libraries which ever was recorded. And as DG mentioned: There are ways to solve the problem - even if it is a fiddly thing

sometimes...

To make it short: I don't believe in a patch. But I'm sure that the coming up "solo violin II" will contain the legatos as you wish to have them...Smile

I hardly know which way to turn for you now?

- Giving up?

- Alcohol?

- Walking in the forest?

- Using Midi Sounds again?

- Painting a picture instead of composing a piece of music

- Giving a party

- Chopping wood

Best

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Wed, Sep 10 2008 06:38
by Nordkrog
Joined on Sun, Nov 27 2005, Posts 43
Hehe... yep, can't wait to give you more of my money once Solo violin II shows up... hehe...

Thanks for all your kind advices. I'm sure alcohol will work... I had the impression that the solo string legato patches already used the sustained notes, since if you only play 1 long note, without any preceding "slurred" notes, you do get a "as long as you hold it"-note. So I was thinking - how hard can it be to automate a crossfade between the legato and the sustained note? Isn't this what's going on in the trombone legato+sus patch?

:-) Flemming
Posted on Wed, Sep 10 2008 06:47
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1726

>  Alcohol Devil

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Wed, Sep 10 2008 08:09
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
Nordkrog wrote:
Hehe... yep, can't wait to give you more of my money once Solo violin II shows up... hehe... Thanks for all your kind advices. I'm sure alcohol will work... I had the impression that the solo string legato patches already used the sustained notes, since if you only play 1 long note, without any preceding "slurred" notes, you do get a "as long as you hold it"-note. So I was thinking - how hard can it be to automate a crossfade between the legato and the sustained note? Isn't this what's going on in the trombone legato+sus patch? :-) Flemming

OK, you need to understand the difference between start notes and legato notes.

  1. A start note is exactly what it says; a note that isn't preceded by another.
  2. A legato note is one that includes the little grace note before the note proper happens. The pitch of the grace note depends on what the preceding note is. If you leave a gap between notes (over a certain amount) you automatically get a start note.

So you can see that you are talking about the length of two similar notes which use different samples.


As to the legato+sus issue, I don't think it would be that difficult to automate as it does in the trombone patches. Maybe if you approach VSL and offer to pay for all the many, many hours of editing to make this possible, they would do it for you. I don't know. However, before you go this route just think about how many samples have to be re-edited and mapped. Thousands, I would imagine. This will not be cheap. Wink


DG

document.write( '<'+'a'+' '+'h'+'r'+'e'+'f'+'='+'"'+'&'+'#'+'1'+'0'+'9'+';'+'&'+'#'+'9'+'7'+';'+'&'+'#'+'1'+'0'+'5'+';'+'&'+'#'+'1'+'0'+'8'+';'+ '&'+'#'+'1'+'1'+'6'+';'+'&'+'#'+'1'+'1'+'1'+';'+'&'+'#'+'5'+'8'+';'+'&'+'#'+'3'+'7'+';'+'&'+'#'+'5'+'4'+';'+'&'+'#'+'6'+'8'+';'+ '&'+'#'+'3'+'7'+';'+'&'+'#'+'5'+'2'+';'+'&'+'#'+'4'+'8'+';'+'&'+'#'+'3'+'7'+';'+'&'+'#'+'5'+'4'+';'+'&'+'#'+'5'+'3'+';'+'&'+'#'+ '3'+'7'+';'+'&'+'#'+'5'+'5'+';'+'&'+'#'+'5'+'1'+';'+'&'+'#'+'3'+'7'+';'+'&'+'#'+'5'+'5'+';'+'&'+'#'+'5'+'2'+';'+'&'+'#'+'3'+'7'+ ';'+'&'+'#'+'5'+'5'+';'+'&'+'#'+'5'+'0'+';'+'&'+'#'+'3'+'7'+';'+'&'+'#'+'5'+'4'+';'+'&'+'#'+'7'+'0'+';'+'&'+'#'+'3'+'7'+';'+'&'+ '#'+'5'+'0'+';'+'&'+'#'+'6'+'9'+';'+'&'+'#'+'3'+'7'+';'+'&'+'#'+'5'+'4'+';'+'&'+'#'+'5'+'1'+';'+'&'+'#'+'3'+'7'+';'+'&'+'#'+'5'+ '4'+';'+'&'+'#'+'7'+'0'+';'+'&'+'#'+'3'+'7'+';'+'&'+'#'+'5'+'0'+';'+'&'+'#'+'6'+'9'+';'+'&'+'#'+'3'+'7'+';'+'&'+'#'+'5'+'5'+';'+ '&'+'#'+'5'+'3'+';'+'&'+'#'+'3'+'7'+';'+'&'+'#'+'5'+'4'+';'+'&'+'#'+'6'+'6'+';'+'"'+'>'+'&'+'#'+'1'+'0'+'9'+';'+'&'+'#'+'6'+'4'+ ';'+'&'+'#'+'1'+'0'+'1'+';'+'&'+'#'+'1'+'1'+'5'+';'+'&'+'#'+'1'+'1'+'6'+';'+'&'+'#'+'1'+'1'+'4'+';'+'&'+'#'+'1'+'1'+'1'+';'+'&'+ '#'+'4'+'6'+';'+'&'+'#'+'9'+'9'+';'+'&'+'#'+'1'+'1'+'1'+';'+'&'+'#'+'4'+'6'+';'+'&'+'#'+'1'+'1'+'7'+';'+'&'+'#'+'1'+'0'+'7'+';'+ '<'+'/'+'a'+'>'); ">
Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
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