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Complete "The Rite Of Spring" performed by Jay Bacal
Last post Mon, Feb 01 2010 by stevetrumpet, 107 replies.
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Posted on Thu, Mar 12 2009 16:44
by Mahlon
Joined on Sun, Jan 08 2006, The decadent South, Posts 441

 Truly remarkable, Jay. Though..... it's not nice to fool Mother Nature Big Smile

Mahlon

Posted on Thu, Mar 12 2009 18:45
by Brian
Joined on Mon, Apr 23 2007, Posts 185

Congratulations Jay!  A truely remarkable achievement, and I can't think of a better sample library than VSL to give you the right tools to do it! Cool  You're the man Jay!

Posted on Thu, Mar 12 2009 20:17
by DaveTubaKing
Joined on Fri, Feb 27 2004, London, Posts 770

 Extraordinary and wonderful. Congratulations both Jay and the VSL team.

Jay can you clarify how you got all th notes in was it a mix of playing and notation.?

 Have you thought whether using a notation programme like Sibelius would improve your workflow? I wonder whether such complex scores could be scanned into Sibelius a lot quicker and easier.

If you ever re-mix this can you bring the tubas up significantly just to please me.

David Carter https://sorabjiorchestralmusic.wordpress.com/
https://www.youtube.com/...UCoEithAEjsd4IBViwsfQFwQ

W10 Pro (64bit), Z390 Aorus Pro wifi MB, Intel i7-8700K s.7 GHz, Corsair 64GB (4x16GB) DDR4 3000MHz, Samsung 970 EVO M.2, 2 x OCZ Agility 3 480GB SSDs, Sibelius 8.4.1, Symphonic cube, VEPro7, MIRPro, Focustite Scarlett Solo, Nvidia GeForce GT 710 2GB GDDR5
Posted on Thu, Mar 12 2009 21:53
by DM33
Joined on Fri, Jul 04 2003, Posts 287

I noticed that Jay has not responded to anyones questions yet...he must be drunk, hibernating or on a well deserved vacation...maybe all 3! LOL!

Anyway, this is truly a landmark achievement and the apex in the history of MIDI orchestration (IMHO). The Le Sacre MIDI file has been available on the net for some time but shaping and contouring it into a "performance" is really the hard part.

I think this piece could only have been done with VSL products (and of course Jays master craftsmanship didn't hurt either :-) , the others just don't have enough articulations to achieve this level of realism for the orchestrational devices Igor used in it's composition. It requires all the "optional" articulations like the fA and Harsh, Rep, and Rep-Legato, ponticello, harmonics...The key to achieving such quality is to start with the best articulations for each note/phrase, shaping Vel and dynamics will definitely help but they can't be substituted for the wrong/inadequate/unavailable articulations.

One more device that, I think, allowed for such an accurate reproduction of such a difficult piece was the VI itself. It's architecture and design were probably extremely helpful in realizing this complex work of art. Can you imagine how many tracks Jay would have needed doing it the "old" way? (with each articulation on its own track). Probably 10 times the amount he used!

Thanks to VSL for creating such a work of art in its own right! And Jay, with your skill and talent, you've shown us all (yet again) the potential we each have every time we sit down and use the VI. I am inspired and have new found energy to persevere and overcome the daily grind of life in-order to achieve something even half as good as this mock-up!

Regards,

DM33

Posted on Fri, Mar 13 2009 02:58
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5738

 Yes, the number of tracks required from older systems is horrible, compared to VE.  For example, Gigastudio required you to do each separate articulation on a separate track if it was complex music.   So that was a nightmare I personally dealt with.   With Vienna Ensemble, a huge step forward in being able to realize complex music was accomplished.  Though also it is the number, and the skill in selecting, the samples required for really musical needs that VSL did, which makes this possible in the hands of a sufficiently good musician (which Jay obviously is).  

And BTW I don't think Jay is drunk now. I think he is ritually slaughtering virgins on the street outside his house, while doing oddly irregular dance steps. 

Posted on Fri, Mar 13 2009 13:52
by JBacal
Joined on Sat, Mar 27 2004, Posts 1210

Thank you everyone for the very warm response.   And a special thanks to Herb, Michael, Dietz and team VSL for creating such an amazing musical "instrument!"

Quote:
Just one technical question - what reverb and placement were used in the creating of this piece?

Paul,  I sent the string ensembles to the Todd AO narrow 3m50 (wet/dry mix to taste). I sent the solo strings and woodwinds to the Todd AO 8m (wet/dry mix to taste). The horns to Todd AO narrow 11m70 (wet/dry mix to taste). And I sent the brass and percussion to Todd AO wide 18m90(wet/dry mix to taste). Finally I sent everything through a small amount of the Mechanics Hall to add a bit more "reverb."   I used Waves S1 to narrow the stereo width and pan the instruments into position on the stage.

Quote:
Jay can you clarify how you got all th notes in was it a mix of playing and notation?   Have you thought whether using a notation programme like Sibelius would improve your workflow? I wonder whether such complex scores could be scanned into Sibelius a lot quicker and easier.

Dave, I played some in below tempo, I used step record, I drew the notes in with a mouse.   If there really is a way to simply scan a score into the computer I would love to know more about it.  Does such a technology really exist?

Quote:
And BTW I don't think Jay is drunk now. I think he is ritually slaughtering virgins on the street outside his house, while doing oddly irregular dance steps.

Bill, I'm afraid my neighborhood is fresh out of virgins at the moment but oldly irregular dance steps pretty accurately describes my dancing abilities.

Cheers,

Jay

Posted on Fri, Mar 13 2009 14:09
by paulhenrysmith
Joined on Sun, Feb 09 2003, Boston, Posts 158

Jay, I'm speechless.   You'll go down in history as one of finest virtuousos of the digital orchestra.  Thanks for the gift and the inspiration!

- Paul

Posted on Fri, Mar 13 2009 14:22
by Guy Bacos
Joined on Sun, Jan 16 2005, Quebec, Canada, Posts 1998

I think if Stravinski could of been around to hear this, he would of been very impressed and proud.

Posted on Fri, Mar 13 2009 15:09
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5738

 There are scanning programs but as with OCR of any kind they cause so many editing problems it seems easier to just put the notes in with a sequencer or notation program manually.  Though maybe that has changed.

That is interesting to hear about how wide a spread of distance in the reverb was used in this. 

Was that the 8-velocity tam-tam?  That seems to respond best to muted choke effects by using CC11.  I wish a few more tamtam articulations would be recorded for those particular gongs, similar to the suspended cymbal in rolls - short and long crescendos, and choked.  There is a lot of short ff tam-tam strokes in that score, isn't there?  Those are very hard to play live.

I wondered about the same sort of thing Guy  mentioned -  what would Stravinsky think?   If he wasn't biased against modern elements such as the technological approach,  he probably would like this as it is very faithful to the score.  I have around 20 recordings on CD and LP, including two different ones conducted by Stravinsky, and this recording though digitally created is not a mere stunt, but quite musically valid right alongside those.  It is interesting  to hear how various elements of the score - which is blisteringly difficult for a live orchestra to play -  are actually clearer in this MIDI performance.  And of course, the famously difficult changing irregular meters, so easy to screw up sitting in an orchestra (or waving one's hands in front of an orchestra) are absolutely perfect in MIDI.  That also makes me think Stravinsky would like it - the accuracy of rhythm possible this way.

Posted on Fri, Mar 13 2009 17:38
by DaveTubaKing
Joined on Fri, Feb 27 2004, London, Posts 770

 Jay, here,s Photoscore http://www.neuratron.com/photoscore.htm 

I think with printed scores it is meant to do a good job but the more complex the score the more tidying up there will be. Worth a look. And I would bet my bottom dollar that someone somewhere on the web has already created a score of the rite and any other major work either in sibelius or finale.

David Carter https://sorabjiorchestralmusic.wordpress.com/
https://www.youtube.com/...UCoEithAEjsd4IBViwsfQFwQ

W10 Pro (64bit), Z390 Aorus Pro wifi MB, Intel i7-8700K s.7 GHz, Corsair 64GB (4x16GB) DDR4 3000MHz, Samsung 970 EVO M.2, 2 x OCZ Agility 3 480GB SSDs, Sibelius 8.4.1, Symphonic cube, VEPro7, MIRPro, Focustite Scarlett Solo, Nvidia GeForce GT 710 2GB GDDR5
Posted on Fri, Mar 13 2009 18:06
by JBacal
Joined on Sat, Mar 27 2004, Posts 1210

Thanks for the info Dave.   I'm downloading the demo right now.   If this works it will be a real time saver!

Best,

Jay

Posted on Fri, Mar 13 2009 19:30
by JBacal
Joined on Sat, Mar 27 2004, Posts 1210

 Looks like it works quite well.   I owe you a beer Dave (and some louder tubas!).

--Jay

Posted on Fri, Mar 13 2009 21:13
by DaveTubaKing
Joined on Fri, Feb 27 2004, London, Posts 770

 That's good news Jay.

David Carter https://sorabjiorchestralmusic.wordpress.com/
https://www.youtube.com/...UCoEithAEjsd4IBViwsfQFwQ

W10 Pro (64bit), Z390 Aorus Pro wifi MB, Intel i7-8700K s.7 GHz, Corsair 64GB (4x16GB) DDR4 3000MHz, Samsung 970 EVO M.2, 2 x OCZ Agility 3 480GB SSDs, Sibelius 8.4.1, Symphonic cube, VEPro7, MIRPro, Focustite Scarlett Solo, Nvidia GeForce GT 710 2GB GDDR5
Posted on Sat, Mar 14 2009 16:05
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5738

 I think I'm going to try this on my own music - an old score printed in Music Printer Plus.

Posted on Mon, Mar 16 2009 16:55
by Roberto D.
Joined on Thu, Dec 02 2004, Posts 188

What about the Alpensinfonie, Jay?

Wink

Congrats, sincerely.

Posted on Tue, Mar 17 2009 01:54
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5738

Yes, I was wondering - what could someone do that could outdo this?  And of course the Alpensinfonie came to mind. However, since programming it would result complete homicidal madness, I don't advise anyone to take that step.   Purely on altruistic grounds.

Jay, don't even think about it.  You need rest now.  No more MIDI for you.  At least for a good long period of recuperation.  Or the men in white coats will soon be calling.  Trust me on this. 

  

Posted on Tue, Mar 17 2009 02:01
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5738

 BTW, does anyone notice how nobody asks a lot about this, specifically, concerning anything?  And why is that?  I would wager it is because, to some extent, Jay is now the Yoda of MIDI.   They realize they must first attain the Mystic MIDI Apprentice Level, and only then, when sitting forlornly outside the Monastery of the Old MIDI Masters, can they be taken seriously as Disciples. 

I have in fact seen Jay outside the Monastery, when he made a brief appearance from within the Iridescent Fractal Gates, and he actually does have long pointy ears and a bald head.  And he is extremely short and handles a light saber fairly well. 

On top of that, he has personally told me,  when I pathetically complained about Sonar, or begged for some hint about the Nine Hermetic Secrets of the MIDI Way, to remember always -

Do or do not MIDI - there is no try. 

Posted on Tue, Mar 17 2009 02:41
by ross.harris
Joined on Thu, Sep 13 2007, New Zealand, Posts 18

This is an amazing feat of arranging. Congratulations Jay. Nice to hear the lower horns for a change! But there is one sound that doesn't work well enough - muted trumpets!

Which reminds me, where are the muted horn samples for the Special Edition? Please can I have some?

Ross

Ross
Posted on Tue, Mar 17 2009 09:42
by basso
Joined on Sat, Mar 01 2008, Buxted, East Sussex, UK, Posts 76

 I  would love to download the mp3 for this, but all I get is this message The file http://vsl.co.at/downloader.asp?file=/Sounds/MP3/VI_DEMOS/Rite_of_Spring/Rite_of_Spring_Part1_complete_A_Kiss_of_the_Earth.mp3 cannot be found. Please check the location and try again.

Anyone else having this problem?

Posted on Tue, Mar 17 2009 10:34
by cm
Joined on Fri, Dec 20 2002, vienna, Posts 9146

 welcome basso,

the downloader from the player is based on an older technology and according to the huge number of downloads it seems there was a memory problem and it did no longer respond.

the issue is fixed for the moment and i ask you to revisit - sorry for the inconvenience,

christian

and remember: a CRAY is the only computer that runs an endless loop in just four hours ...
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