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  3. Buying a new Mac Pro: 4-core "Nehalem" or 8-core "Harpertown"?

  • Buying a new Mac Pro: 4-core "Nehalem" or 8-core "Harpertown"?

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    So, here we go again. It's time for a new computer...

    I'm trying to choose between the brand new "Nehalem" Mac Pros or the "Early 2008"-model ("Harpertown"). The 2008-model I'm considering is the 8-core 2.8Ghz. (The 2008-model is out of stock everywhere so I guess I have to find a used one somewhere... Not very easy though and they are still quite expensive, even the used ones.)

    A problem is that the Swedish Crown has fallen against the US dollar so all new Macs are 20-30% more expensive now. If I'm going for the new Nehalem Mac Pro I can only afford the 4-core model (2.66 Ghz) and this model is actually almost $400 more expensive than the 8-core 2008 model!

    What I need is a computer than can playback at least 30-40 Vienna Instruments directly from Finale 2009. My current setup is a G5 Dualcore 2x2Ghz with 4.5 GB RAM. This computer can play ca 15-20 VI from Logic but only 4-5 from Finale. For some reason Finale is very CPU-intensive during playback so this is something for me to consider when I'm choosing a new computer.

    What would be the best computer for my needs: 4-core 2.66Ghz "Nehalem" or 8-core 2.8 Ghz "Harpertown" (Early 2008)? Does the "Nehalem"-processor give any significantly improvement with Vienna Instruments? Or is the previous 8-core still a better choice?

    (The "swedish" prize for the  4-core "Nehalem" is approx $3.300. The 8-core "Harpertown" was previously sold for approx $2.900.)

    Any help would be appreciated.

    /Albert
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     According to the early benchmarks, my 2008 2.8GHz 8 core Mac Pro with 16 giga of RAM gains 15% over the 2 giga RAM base version.

    In this configuration in the multitasking tests the 2008 is far better than the 2009 4 core model.

    As the world of software is going multitasking, the 2008 should be the best choice.

    The 2009 Mac Pro looks like a transition model. For example: they have  4 o 8 RAM slots as the former one,  but the new I7 needs 3 multiples.

    In my opinion save some money and get the next year model that will be really performing!

    Sergino
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    The current 4-core only holds 8B of RAM. Don't buy it!
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    Wow. I'm amazed that the 2.6 only holds 8 GB. I must cast a third vote for the 2008 model. Have you watched the refurbs at Apple? I had to wait for several weeks, learning the hard way that those which appear may vanish in the click of a mouse. I bought one for 2,300 USD approximately in August of 2008, and it's a potent, capable machine. I won't risk a voice count estimate, but significant orchestration in one pass is do-able. 

    Additionally, Snow Leopard is coming, and do you really want to be on the cutting edge of both a new computer and its new software?

    But you know what's best for you. I'm tempted to say the dollar's strength will fade, but this isn't a Forex forum, and dear me, I've been wrong in the past.  
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    @plowman said:

    Wow. I'm amazed that the 2.6 only holds 8 GB. I must cast a third vote for the 2008 model. Have you watched the refurbs at Apple? I had to wait for several weeks, learning the hard way that those which appear may vanish in the click of a mouse. I bought one for 2,300 USD approximately in August of 2008, and it's a potent, capable machine. I won't risk a voice count estimate, but significant orchestration in one pass is do-able. 

    Additionally, Snow Leopard is coming, and do you really want to be on the cutting edge of both a new computer and its new software?

    But you know what's best for you. I'm tempted to say the dollar's strength will fade, but this isn't a Forex forum, and dear me, I've been wrong in the past.  

    Well, the 8 GB RAM limitation is also one of my biggest concerns against the 4-core Nehalem machine. I'm guessing 8 GB is enough for the moment but RAM usage has increased a lot in both OS and all applications the last years.

    Regarding Snow Leopard: My plan was actually to buy a new Mac Pro before the release of Snow Leopard. I'm guessing nobody who is using their machines for daily work want to be on the "cutting edge" with a new OS... (I'm still on OS 10.4.11 on my G5. "if it ain't broken, don't fix it" 😊

    I've read about these refurbs at Apple before, but I'm not sure they are available for us in Sweden (I haven't found anything about refurbed Macs on the swedish apple site). Do you know where to find those?
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    10.4.11 on a G5 is great and it works. And it was the best thing for quite a while, even when Logic Pro 8 was going through the usual transitional period of new software.

    But 10.5.6 on a Mac Pro with Logic 8 is way better now, believe me. Regarding the new Macs, I wouldn't pay over 5 grand for the 8 core version. I would try and get the old Mac Pro personally and use that with a view to seeing what Snow Leopard brings. I'm not sure how long Snow Leopard will take to come out and whether it will even address the 64 bit issue.
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    I can't say I know the rules for Sweden. Just now I went to the Apple site, hit the store, scrolled down, and on the left side there's a "Special Deals / Refurbished Mac" link. On that page there's currently a refurbished 8-core 3.2 for 4,100 USD. These older high-enders stick around a little longer, while the older 8-core 2.8's are bought more quickly. My refurb has issues, but I doubt that they are related to the fact that it's a refurb. It's a computer created by human beings -- that's the issue. I've never regretted the purchase. 
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    I just found this test on the 4-core Nehalem vs. the 8-core Nehalem.

    [url]http://www.macworld.com/article/139507/2009/03/macpro2009.html[/url]

    Any comments on this one? It's actually the first test I've read where the 4-core Nehalem gets higher score than the 8-core 2008 model.
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    If you are going to overlook the above advice -- which includes a moderator and the editor of Virtual Instruments magazine -- and base your decision on a bar graph, then that is your choice. No one is saying that the Nehalem is slower. We're saying that it's not a difference which is proportionate to the price. I find the small edging of the new Nehalems over the previous MacPro's to be humorous. There is actually one benchmark in that article where the old 2.8 is better. The only case I could make for the new model is that somehow, someday, Snow Leopard offers some advantage realized on Nehalem that can not be known presently -- an advantage so compelling, it compensates for a limit of 8 GB of memory. My opinion: computers have been fast enough to playback a reasonably large orchestration for a couple of years now. But if you can't load a sample into memory, the computer won't play it no matter how fast it is. 
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    @Another User said:

    But if you can't load a sample into memory, the computer won't play it no matter how fast it is.

    This seems to be the main reason why I shouldn't consider the 4-core Nehalem. Some people have been hoping for an upgrade of the 4-core machine later this year, thus allowing 16 GB RAM instead. I don't find this very likely but one can always hope...

    Thanks everybody so far for valuable advice.
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    Good advice from Plowman. I bought a 3.0 MacPro just before they changed over to the new Mac Pros. Over £5000 sterling (currently $7225 on exchange rates) for a 2.93 Nehalem. That's ridiculous. I can't believe the older models are not still out there only a few weeks on from these new releases.

    Albert, you won't make a 3.0 even break sweat regardless of how much in the way of orchestration you're doing.
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    Ok. now I'm happy... [:D]

    By a coincidence I just found a shop with a demo computer, 2x2.8Ghz Mac Pro (2008)!!! And since it's been a demo computer in the store for a couple of months I get it even cheaper. Ok, now I'm off and fetching my new 8-core Mac pro!

    Thanks everybody!
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    And I am sorry in turn if I responded too harshly. 

    A big congratulations to you. The speed increase you will enjoy from your previous Mac should be fantastic. By the way, I get my memory from Crucial, if you plan to upgrade. So far, so good, and a dramatically lower price from Apple. (And 16 GB would be about 600 USD, which is 400 less than eight months ago when I bought it.) Also, I installed two Western Digital 1 TB hard drives, currently at NewEgg for 120 USD per drive. Again, they've performed well to date, and they're very quiet. 
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    I purchased my ram from Crucial too. Very good firm. 

    Just remember that installing ram on Mac Pros can be a little complicated Albert. Let us know how you get on with the new Mac soon.
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    My plan is to install at least 8 GB RAM (to begin with) and at least another internal disk. At the moment it's the original configuration, 2 GB RAM - 320 GB HD. I assume it's 2x1 GB sticks? And there are 8 Ram slots? Must the RAM sticks still be in even pairs for optimal performance?

    @PaulR said:

    Just remember that installing ram on Mac Pros can be a little complicated Albert.

    Thanks for the heads-up Paul. Could you specify exactly what is complicated? (I have installed RAM and new internal HDs on several computers before.) Is it very different from a G5?
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    Yes  Albert - it's different to the G5. This should be all you need.

    http://manuals.info.apple.com/en/MacPro_MemoryDIMM_DIY.pdf
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    Correct the big problem is memory usage of software not cpu. an 8core from 2 years ago will do the job with 8 reverbs and stacks of Vi instruments at least 30. If you have two machines use one to mix one to orchestrate, all the better. but they won't load that much in one session...
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    Interestingly, it is being reported that the 4-Core 'Nehalem' MacPros will support 4GB modules, so bringing the prospect of 12GB(three channel) and 16GB (dual channel) memory.

    I will be looking for a new machine to primarily run Logic + VSL in a few months time, and could in no circumstance justify or afford the more expensive 8-core MacPro, but the 4-Core at 2.93Ghz with initially 6 or 8GB is feasible.My requirements will be the ability to run the full Special Edition with Vienna Suite and eventually full MIR (hopefully it will be reasonably affordable).

    Is this a realistic proposition?

    JohnM
  • cmC
    VSL Team
    cmC

     MIR has so far only been tested with a 4 core 3.2 GHz X58 1333MHz board and 12 GB RAM but we came to the conclusion that CPU speed is not so much a factor as fast memory - benchmarks indicate (and there are currently a lot of them floating around) indicate that 1066 MHz memory (as the current MacPros have) will decrease performance by ~15%

    the 4 core MacPro is very similar to X58 PC boards but i'd recommend to always use triples of RAM modules according to the design of the nehalems (3 channel on-processor memory controller) for full speed - eg. 6 x 2GB

     

    as example figure: loading every patch of the special edition (something you wouldn't do in any arrangement) requires 4GB memory and you shouldn't fill memory too close to the limit, so going with 12GB might be a good idea ...

    christian

    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
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    But for running everything else surely the memory speed doesn't matter, ja cm?