Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Forum Jump  
special edition buyer's dilemma
Last post Mon, Feb 07 2011 by Cyril Blanc, 47 replies.
Options
Go to last post
3 Pages123>
Posted on Thu, Jan 21 2010 15:01
by clamnectar
Joined on Sun, Jan 11 2009, Toronto, Posts 87
I bought the Special Edition Bundle almost a year ago. I've found it amazing, and I love it. But taking the next step is difficult. To be specific, I want more articulations of the orchestra strings. I look on the DVD instruments page, and it will cost me $675 to buy Orchestral Strings I standard library, which contains virtually nothing that I don't already have in the Special Edition Bundle. But what I really want is the fast legato, con sordino, runs, glissandi, etc... all the good stuff from the Extended library. That will cost me an addition $700 on top of the $675. In other words, it's very expensive. I wish there was some way I could just buy these Extended library patches, because, as an owner of the Special Edition Bundle, I'm simply throwing my money away on things I already own otherwise. I'm sure someone has proposed this before, but what about a download-instruments version that makes available the Extended content exclusively from the Strings DVD instruments (for the right price)?
Posted on Thu, Jan 21 2010 15:20
by clamnectar
Joined on Sun, Jan 11 2009, Toronto, Posts 87
Oh, and to clarify, I own the "full" version of the Special Edition Bundle with the extended libraries.
Posted on Thu, Jan 21 2010 16:43
by Wim Dijkgraaf
Joined on Sat, Jun 06 2009, Posts 65
Hi clamnectar,

I can support you on this. I also own the complete Special Edition Bundle and use it with great plessure. Before I can decide wether to upgrade to the full DVD instruments it would be helpfull to know more about the differences between the Special Edition, the download instruments and the full DVD edition. Not so much in terms of articulations (that's quite clear by reading the product details on the website) but also in terms of amount of samples, amount of velocities, etc. My experience is that local resellers can't give enough indepth information on that.

For example, somewhere I read that the Special Edition has a reduced amount of samples (samples being a whole tone apart). If this is true, I guess the overall sound quality will be better with the DVD instruments? That would help in reducing the idea of "throwing money away". But it can also mean more resource consumption, so, probably I'll also have to upgrade my computer(s) or change considerably the way I work ... .

Being able to read the documentation for each of the products would be very helpfull. Is the documentation available somewhere?

The decision is particularly crucial, because experienced people are very positive about the quality of VSL but also advise on extending sample libraries with products from several vendors. This from the perspective of sound diversity and realism.

By the way, by no means am I disappointed in the Special Edition. The contrary, I'm very happy that I started with this edition because it helped me a lot in learning rapidly what it is to work with sample libraries. And I still think the price is fair for a quality product like the Special Edition and the service of VSL.

As a composer, for me it's only important to deliver a quality demo, for others to make it easier to interpret my scores and for their decision making. So, perfectionism in virtual orchestra sound production should not be my goal ... although it's very tempting to spend your time and money on this ... ;-)

Abraços,

Wim
Posted on Thu, Jan 21 2010 17:08
by clamnectar
Joined on Sun, Jan 11 2009, Toronto, Posts 87
Wim Dijkgraaf wrote:
Hi clamnectar,

I can support you on this. I also own the complete Special Edition Bundle and use it with great plessure. Before I can decide wether to upgrade to the full DVD instruments it would be helpfull to know more about the differences between the Special Edition, the download instruments and the full DVD edition. Not so much in terms of articulations (that's quite clear by reading the product details on the website) but also in terms of amount of samples, amount of velocities, etc. My experience is that local resellers can't give enough indepth information on that.


For example, somewhere I read that the Special Edition has a reduced amount of samples (samples being a whole tone apart). If this is true, I guess the overall sound quality will be better with the DVD instruments? That would help in reducing the idea of "throwing money away". But it can also mean more resource consumption, so, probably I'll also have to upgrade my computer(s) or change considerably the way I work ... .


I'm aware of these differences, but the half-tone sampling doesn't really excite me. I already think the Special Edition sounds great. For me the issue is that I have paid $2000 already, and if I want nothing more than a FEW more articulations for a SINGLE level of strings (for example, just orchestral), it will cost me an additional $1300. I mean, fast legato and pfp and glissandi and runs are important to me but there's no way of justifying that kind of spending to obtain them. Either the Special Edition Bundle is way too good a deal, or that the DVD instruments collections are way too expensive. Either way, I'm a potential customer eager to buy something in particular (some extra strings articulations), and I'm frustrated to find there's no product that caters to my needs in a reasonable way. VSL could have more of my money if this were available!
Posted on Thu, Jan 21 2010 18:10
by Wim Dijkgraaf
Joined on Sat, Jun 06 2009, Posts 65
Sorry that I wasn't clear about it, but I completely agree with you.

I bought the Special Edition because the website mentioned the possibility to upgrade to the full collection with discount. But I think, I didn't read the discount details pages well enough to get the whole picture. Will do that and if not clear to me, will start a seperate thread about the discount policy to get to know the details.


BTW: I still have the impression having bought a wonderfull product for a good price ... !!!
Sorry for interupting your thread.

Will follow it with interest.

Abraços,

Wim
Posted on Thu, Jan 21 2010 19:21
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1582

clamnectar wrote:
I look on the DVD instruments page, and it will cost me $675 to buy Orchestral Strings I standard library, which contains virtually nothing that I don't already have in the Special Edition Bundle. But what I really want is the fast legato, con sordino, runs, glissandi, etc... all the good stuff from the Extended library. That will cost me an addition $700 on top of the $675. In other words, it's very expensive.
 

That's just the half of it.  Orchestral Strings I is just the Violins and Violas.  If you want Celli and Bassi you have to buy Orchestral Strings II + extended version + another grand $$$$ or soSurprise

Unfortunately, for those of us who play this game, it ain't cheap brotha! 

I own both OS I and OS II standard versions.  I use the the speed matrix very often and let me draw your attention to something.  This is straight out of my user's manual.  It's refering to the speed matrix that I use.




"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Thu, Jan 21 2010 19:27
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1582

As for the con sordino, runs, and glissandi... yeap, you're going to have to fork over the bucks my friend.  


"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Thu, Jan 21 2010 19:41
by clamnectar
Joined on Sun, Jan 11 2009, Toronto, Posts 87
jasensmith wrote:

That's just the half of it.  Orchestral Strings I is just the Violins and Violas.  If you want Celli and Bassi you have to buy Orchestral Strings II + extended version + another grand $$$$ or soSurprise




Good god, I just noticed that. So you pay $2000 to get 90% of what you need.... and then $3000 is the price for just improved orchestral strings? And then you need another wheelbarrow of money for Chamber, Solo, and the rest of the orchestra.

I think I understand now.... Special Edition Bundle is for a different economic class. Once you have that, there's nothing more to buy unless you move into another economic category altogether. I think it's a shame that VSL wouldn't want to offer some of the fruits of the big collections to Special Edition owners at affordable prices, but it probably has something to do with protecting the investments of those who have paid $20,000 for the full package.
Posted on Thu, Jan 21 2010 23:03
by denis
Joined on Sun, Nov 16 2008, Posts 114
I would also love to see a Special Edition Plus "The Return", with more articulations for all instruments, not only the strings.

What you've discussed above is the reason why I haven't upgraded yet.
Posted on Fri, Jan 22 2010 00:29
by mplaster
Joined on Fri, Jan 12 2007, phoenix | az | usa, Posts 217

i dont mean to sound combative here, but form what i understand you spent over $2000 on The SE Bundle. Okay. I do not own the bundle. Being more familiar with strings, i felt i should focus my money on them, so shelled out 1300 for OS 1, Std + Extended. And your complaint is that you are frustrated that you have to spend another 1300 to have the full set of OS1 strings' articulations that i have.  Maybe i am missing something, but are you aware that in that $2000+ you spent on the SE Bundle, you also got A TON OF OTHER INSTRUMENTS, too!

Solo, chamber, appasionata, flutes, oboes, clarinets, bassoons, saxes, horns, trumpets, tubas, trombones, percussion, keyboards, mallets, Guitars......

So, although i understand "technically" your gripe, you also have a nearly full orchestra set in its non-extended, non-half-tone-sampled manifestation. Which is way more than i got! :)

My point is, if you were buying the SE bundle to simply "demo" the strings to see if you felt it was worth putting more cash into, you really shoulda just bought the SE Strings download versions.  Woulda saved you a lot.

But then you might say, well yeah, but i also wanted all those other instruments too. Which is fine. Well, id love to have all the Woodwinds you have but i cant exactly insist that VSL sell me just the portion of the SE Bundle i want. I couldnt ask them to give me just the WWs for 675, cause i dont need the rest. Wouldn't happen. It was all part of a package. I think it might help to think of each set as its own instrument, in a way, rather than just bonus material.

VSL packages their stuff in a specific way. I know at times it can be frustrating, but over the last few years they have really split things up nicely. Used to be you had to buy an entire DVD collection if you wanted it. But now with the download instruments available, they are way more flexible in getting the stuff to us. But still, it wouldnt be fair of those of us who paid full-on for a DVD collection for a non-DVD buyer to access the same content we have, unless VSL were then willing to make adjustments for those who already do own full DVD collections. And at that point it would be a confusing A-la-carte gone mad, trying to balance out what one person had spent on something, and where else they could apply a fair discount for a different instrument set.

Additionally, since you paid for the whole-tone sampled strings (in your SE bundle) why would you expect to be able to get the full quality half-tone samples from the strings package? To which you might reply, "i'd be fine with having whole-tone samples for the strings Extended package." But then that means VSL completely re-packaging a whole new product, which would be a decent amount of work for them, i would imagine.

I know i'm being wordy. And please, i honestly dont mean to come off as confrontational or gettin-in-your-face about it (my apologies if it came out that way :) ) but we really DO have alot of options with VSL! But nothing in life is ever perfect, and we cant expect to pick and choose every last detail of what we want. Theyve packaged their products in, more or less, a pretty organized and fair way, if you ask me.... 

Just tryin to give some perspective.

-m

_______________________________
facebook.com/soulwhirlingsomewhere
Posted on Fri, Jan 22 2010 01:14
by clamnectar
Joined on Sun, Jan 11 2009, Toronto, Posts 87
mplaster wrote:

VSL packages their stuff in a specific way. I know at times it can be frustrating, but over the last few years they have really split things up nicely. Used to be you had to buy an entire DVD collection if you wanted it. But now with the download instruments available, they are way more flexible in getting the stuff to us. But still, it wouldnt be fair of those of us who paid full-on for a DVD collection for a non-DVD buyer to access the same content we have, unless VSL were then willing to make adjustments for those who already do own full DVD collections. And at that point it would be a confusing A-la-carte gone mad, trying to balance out what one person had spent on something, and where else they could apply a fair discount for a different instrument set.

Additionally, since you paid for the whole-tone sampled strings (in your SE bundle) why would you expect to be able to get the full quality half-tone samples from the strings package? To which you might reply, "i'd be fine with having whole-tone samples for the strings Extended package." But then that means VSL completely re-packaging a whole new product, which would be a decent amount of work for them, i would imagine.

I know i'm being wordy. And please, i honestly dont mean to come off as confrontational or gettin-in-your-face about it (my apologies if it came out that way :) ) but we really DO have alot of options with VSL! But nothing in life is ever perfect, and we cant expect to pick and choose every last detail of what we want. Theyve packaged their products in, more or less, a pretty organized and fair way, if you ask me.... 

Just tryin to give some perspective.

-m



I understand your point, and I take no offense. The way I see it, VSL is missing the opportunity to make money from the undoubtedly numerous users at my level -- people who love the Special Edition, want a bit more, but can't find a worthwhile way to spend their money. With my Special Edition Bundle (standard+extended) I already have 95% of the articulations from the standard Strings bundle (and indeed, 95% of the articulations for almost all the download instruments). But the standard Strings bundle would cost me $4500. To get the majority of the NEW stuff, I would have to go a full level higher to the extended bundle -- $9000 total! Half tone sampling is unimportant to me and probably most users, so why on Earth would I spend $9,000 just for a few more articulations? I'm not trying to paint a "woe is me" picture here, I'm saying.... Dear VSL, if you find a way to give me some of the good stuff I don't already have -- fast legatos, runs, and glissandi, and a couple more articulations for all the strings -- I'll pay ohhhh, about $1000 for that. If not, you won't get anything until I find a REALLY important reason to part with $9000. If there's 1000 other users like me, just for the sake of argument, that's $1 million they could collect but won't. Anyone who's got $9000 to spend on a sample library is going to go for the everything-included half tone-sampled deluxe package every time anyway. But a serious amateur such as myself is not going to make that leap.
Posted on Fri, Jan 22 2010 06:47
by cm
Joined on Fri, Dec 20 2002, vienna, Posts 9135

just to put some basic figures into the discussion:

the special edition bundle full contains about 35.000 samples for strings, the strings package full contains about 290.000.

purchasing the full strings package at USD 8.895.- you will receive a discount (for SE bundle full) of USD 583.- which pretty accurate reflects the number and value of the string samples from the SE bundle you have licensed already.

christian

and remember: a CRAY is the only computer that runs an endless loop in just four hours ...
Posted on Fri, Jan 22 2010 09:02
by denis
Joined on Sun, Nov 16 2008, Posts 114
I can only talk for myself here. Of course, no one can expect to buy the Special Edition Plus Extended (or whatever package) and then get an upgrade to the full orchestral strings for $100. That would be pretty insulting for all the hard work put into VSL wonderful products (please, understand me: I am in no way ironic here).

To be honest, I don't think I'm very interested in getting the whole collection of any instrument recorded full quality in semi-tone. I have only one Mac Pro and I don't plan to invest in a network of ultra powerful machines - not yet...

But yes, I would really welcome another extension to the Special Edition, similarly priced, that adds more articulations to all the instruments present in the Special Edition, including the runs and con sordino of the Orchestral Strings.

Let me try to draw an analogy here between VSL and Apple. Apple offers the Mac Pro, incredible machine, at a really high price. But no doubt that you pay for what you get, and you get something big! Then there is the iMac which isn't modular at all, but which is good value for money and can still do a pretty good job. Those two machines are amazing for what they are, but it won't stop people for wanting a sort of mini Mac Pro that doesn't have the specs of the elite machine (and therefore doesn't cost as much) but still gives more modularity than the iMac.

Does it make sense? Something not addressed to high end composers studios, but a bit more than the introduction package for beginners in orchestration. Because if I want to upgrade to something a bit more substantial and get the missing articulations from VSE+, I need to upgrade the strings, the woodwinds, the brass and the percussion. Ouch! Now this is (and will probably be for another few years) way above my budget!!
Posted on Fri, Jan 22 2010 15:33
by clamnectar
Joined on Sun, Jan 11 2009, Toronto, Posts 87
cm wrote:

just to put some basic figures into the discussion:

the special edition bundle full contains about 35.000 samples for strings, the strings package full contains about 290.000.

purchasing the full strings package at USD 8.895.- you will receive a discount (for SE bundle full) of USD 583.- which pretty accurate reflects the number and value of the string samples from the SE bundle you have licensed already.

christian


Understood, but I don't look at things in terms of sheer numbers of samples. I never thought to myself "I would like 35,000 string samples...", I just said "I want legato on all the instruments, and staccatos, etc." In my view, articulations are the real measurement. I have most of them already! My greatest interest is the performance interval patches and runs that I don't have. But if you prefer to discuss sample counts, let's do some crude numbers: 290,000 divided by 2 for half tone sampling = 145,000... subtract about 60,000 samples for the con sordino patches (numbers estimated from the products page) since con sordino doesn't really add to the playing styles, that's 85,000. Now let's subtract the 35,000 samples I already have... 85,000 minus 35,000 = 50,000 string samples I don't have. The full Special Edition Bundle costs $2000 and has 133,370 samples total (which is 66 samples per 1$), so I calculate that those 50,000 string samples I want should cost 50,000/66 = $757. Of course, you might think this is a silly way to talk about things. Products are priced arbitrarily. I do this only to illustrate that it costs much more than I think it should to add more articulations to the strings I already have.



My point that follows from this -- a point you haven't addressed -- is that there's a demand you're not serving. It's not like I'm going to take that ~$1000 I want to spend on string improvements and say "Oh well, I'll just save that until I have another $8000 and get the strings package"... I'm most likely to go to another company that offers a similar product and try to fill the gaps in my collection that way. Do you see what I'm saying?



(by the way, I see no "your price" in the Strings Package product page... it only lists the full price of $8,895)

Posted on Fri, Jan 22 2010 15:55
by hbuus
Joined on Thu, Oct 26 2006, Posts 74

clamnectar wrote:
(...) what I really want is the fast legato, con sordino, runs, glissandi, etc... all the good stuff from the Extended library.
 

I understand your dilemma, but who would buy the extended libraries if they could get all the good stuff in there at a much lower price? (as part of some kind of extension to the Special Edition Bundle, as you suggest)

Henrik

Posted on Fri, Jan 22 2010 16:09
by clamnectar
Joined on Sun, Jan 11 2009, Toronto, Posts 87
hbuus wrote:

clamnectar wrote:
(...) what I really want is the fast legato, con sordino, runs, glissandi, etc... all the good stuff from the Extended library.
 

I understand your dilemma, but who would buy the extended libraries if they could get all the good stuff in there at a much lower price? (as part of some kind of extension to the Special Edition Bundle, as you suggest)

Henrik



Professionals who need the best would still buy the full package -- no doubt the exact same demographic that owns the full Strings package currently. I think a better question is: who WOULDN'T buy the Special Edition extension? It would sell.
Posted on Fri, Jan 22 2010 20:53
by The Minstrel
Joined on Fri, Oct 16 2009, Sweden, Posts 119
Well, I'm kind of with you. I'd cash up for a Special Edition Plus Deluxe library in a heartbeat, if it included some fast legatos. Every other articulation would be a bonus. What cripples my scores most is the lack of fast legatos for the orchestral strings. Even so, I do understand why VSL did not include articulations such as this in the SE-libraries. Still, I hope there will be more successors to the SE-suite.
Posted on Sun, Jan 24 2010 01:53
by soundescape21_20103
Joined on Thu, Mar 02 2006, Los Angeles, Posts 13

Great topis clamnectar!

I think clamnectar is right on this one. Here is a rational from VSL - if we will give those extra articulations (even at the cheaper price and full tone samples) who will buy the whole enchilada for 8 or 9K? But reality is exactly what clamnectar said - we (me too in this case, as I have exactly the same issue and need) will never pay the absurdly high price for the difference between what we have and what we will get paying this thousands of dollars. So VSL is loosing money. Absolutely right.

To have two-tier pricing for two different products with two levels of quality and features only make sense when the price truly reflects the difference.

I don't mean difference just in objective value (amount of samples for example), but mainly difference in how much the higher end product is worth that difference, and more - how much it will chnage my life as a composer.

That's where VSL is missing the point. And loosing money. Something could be done I think to accomodate this gap, as that is exactly what it is - a huge gap, without offending current users of the full library, or selling out cheap.

Thank you all for your thoughts, I enjoyed reading this, great topic and comments!

Posted on Mon, Jan 25 2010 00:54
by requiem_aeternam7
Joined on Wed, May 14 2008, Posts 108

I must chime in here and agree that VSL strings of all sorts are in major need of a huge price over haul. First let me state that VSL is by far my favorite sound lib company and has been for a long time. Their customer service is the best I've seen yet and that's the reason I remain on these forums. Furthermore their development and coding and products are legendary. VSL SE was the best purchase I ever made music wise. But with that said, it's no secret that all VSL strings are now officially last generation, i.e. they no longer stand up or compete that well with the new generation which includes CS, HS, LASS, etc.

There is no reason that a last generation string should be priced at the same or well above the price of the new ones. Lass is currently 999 and will be 450 for Lite version soon whereas CS is around 600 give or take if I'm not mistaken yet all the additional VSL string libraries whether it's the regular ones or appassionatas are priced in the range of LASS full and HS Diamond which to me is crazy..

I would love to purchase more articulations myself but the current VSL ugprade model is obsolete and there's no way I'd pay that much for slight improvements. It needs to be completely overhauled if they want to make alot of $$$ fast.

Anyways, just my two cents. I love you guys at VSL and look forward to all your upcoming products especially the long awaited choirs do don't take this the wrong way, take it as constructive criticism from your loyal die hard customers and fans to improve your market model.

“He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man.”
Samuel Johnson

Posted on Mon, Jan 25 2010 01:13
by cm
Joined on Fri, Dec 20 2002, vienna, Posts 9135

well, i wrote the special edition bundle full library has about 35.000 string samples, the strings bundle's full libraries have about 290.000.

i'm also confused how you could invest THOUSANDS into VSL libs having registered the special edition standard library ...

christian

and remember: a CRAY is the only computer that runs an endless loop in just four hours ...
3 Pages123>
You cannot post new threads in this forum.
You cannot reply to threads in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.