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Vienna Ensemble Pro and Logic
Last post Fri, Aug 13 2010 by batmandela, 21 replies.
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Posted on Thu, Apr 15 2010 15:09
by mbross
Joined on Sun, Apr 11 2010, Posts 2
I'm new to Vienna Ensemble Pro and am just setting it up this week. I have an issue that I can't seem to solve and I was hoping you experienced users could give me insight.

My setup is:

====
1. Master Computer--
- Intel Mac--OS X 10.6.3. Dual core 2Ghz.
- 8GB of RAM
- Logic 9.1.1
- Digidesign 002 audio interface using CoreAudio drivers.

2. Slave Computer--
- Intel Mac--OS X 10.6
- 16GB of RAM
-no audio interface. Not needed since this is the slave computer.
====

I'm using Kontakt 4 in Vienna Ensemble Pro. I've set up three AudioUnit channels and am loading an instance of Kontakt in each. I load up my samples in each instance.

Then I assign the MIDI In ports for each. The first AU channel 1 assign "1 Plugin MIDI In 1". For AU channel 2, I assign "2 Plugin MIDI In 2" and so on. For each, I've set the channels to OMNI since Kontakt is multi-timbral.

From Logic, I create a multi-timbral instrument set with 16 MIDI channels. That way I can play each corresponding instrument within an specific instance of Kontakt. While I'm able to control the first AU channel (MIDI Port 1 In) with Kontakt and hear each MIDI channel, I can't figure out how to control or assign the 2nd or 3rd AU channel from Logic. I've looked over the VE Pro manual and even read through the section dedicated to Logic. Is there something I need to set up in VE Pro or its server app? Maybe there's an obvious answer here, but I'm not seeing it.

Please help.


-Michael
Posted on Thu, Apr 15 2010 15:43
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 13004

Welcome mbross,

Unfortunately AU doesn´t offer multiple ports for one AU instance, by design.

Only VST3 and RTAS do, and there´s no reliable way to get around this limitation from our end.

The MIDI Port settings in the Preferences also say "VST3/RTAS MIDI Ports" for this reason.

The best thing to do is to open multiple instances if VE PRO and simply use 16 MIDI Channels in each.

Best, 

Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Thu, Apr 15 2010 18:45
by mbross
Joined on Sun, Apr 11 2010, Posts 2
Paul,

Thank you for the quick response.

Running multiple instances is not really a viable option since I have so many resource-heavy instruments I need to load. Running multiple instances with only 16 MIDI channels each defeats the purpose of using VE Pro for me.


I really wish there would have been some type of disclosure of this information on your site regarding this limitation before I purchased VE Pro. I would have decided on a different solution had I known this was going to be a problem.


-Michael
Posted on Thu, Apr 15 2010 18:54
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 13004

Hello again Michael,

this limitation cannot be influenced from our side, and it is not a new limitation at all. I agree that it is not ideal to open multiple instances of VE PRO, but if you are working with Logic, this is the only way to take advantage of the benefits VE PRO has to offer.

I´m sure that your fellow Logic users will add some ideas for a good workflow. How much RAM are you going to use/do you have available?

If you want to return your purchase, please contact , but apart from this AU MIDI port limitation and the resulting "screen real estate management" there is no difference to VST3 or RTAS.

Best,

Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Thu, Apr 15 2010 21:58
by skylabfilmpop
Joined on Fri, Feb 05 2010, Posts 7
They way to work with logic is to open instances known as "Projects", one for each 16 channel group, and then save them under one "Metaframe". In a small orch setup I have one Project for STR/Winds and another for Brass/Perc saved as One "Metaframe" with a seperate name. You will need to instantiate a new VE Pro plug in on an instrument track for each 16 midi port Program instance, and set up auxes or input objects which will offer you the corresponding output channels from each plug in instantiation. Channels 1/2 will return through the instrument object. I make in addition to the 16 channels of multi instrument for each VEpro project also a 17th channel set to Omni/All midi channels and leave it in the arrange page to serve as an aux/input for channels 1/2 of that project. Contact me if you like an d I can help you with setup. skylabfilmpop at sbcglobal dot com
Posted on Fri, Apr 16 2010 03:39
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2703

Hi Paul 

You could do a little video on how to set Logic using one mframe with multiple viframe with one Aux per instrument , with CTRL 7 to CTRL 11 mapping, forbidding  panning changes ....

That will help new Logic users as it is not obvious 

And you could give a Logic project to do this using SE

I just convert my orchestral IAC setup to an mfrmame setup, working great, I have 7 viframe with 80 instruments using all the instruments with all there articulation I have, I use program changes to change articulation, I map CTR 7 to CTRL 11, forbidden the use of the panning when it is an orchestral instrument .......

I have one Aux per instrument 

It's a little bit more greedy than IAC (5/10%) but you get much better dynamics than going thru the ADAT OUT/IN of my Motu's interfaces

I am very happy Smile

My only complains are the screen flashes during loading the viframe and the time it takes to load the my Full Orchestra Mframe. If VSL could improve loading time that will be great

Instead of loading the viframe one after one you could have one process by viframe and load them simultaneously 

This way we will be able to take the full benefit of SSD and/or RAID 0 systems

Best

Cyril

MacBook Pro 2019 16" + 2 x Odisseey G9 49" Big Sur

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd

Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Big Band Orchestra series, Many Synchronised libs
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra 2, Art Conductor, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Mon, May 03 2010 18:32
by ChrisMix
Joined on Sun, Apr 25 2010, Posts 1
I am having the same problem too. I have tried using MIDI over LAN, and ipMIDI as MIDI input alternatives to no avail.

I believe the solution to this problem is for Vienna(you guys) to create a MIDI driver that resides in the Audio MIDI Setup. Like ipMIDI, the number of ports available would be user determined to number of AU instances. For example you could create 4 AU instances with 8 ports each inside the Audio MIDI Setup. Then in order to access those ports, you would only need to create Multi Instruments inside the environment and assign them to those ports.

The other option might be simply to have a universal view so that shows all instances can be viewed in one window providing a Master Mixer. Then the MIDi port problem wouldn't be so much of an issue. This combined with a common auxiliary/mixing function to share effects amongst the instances would probably solve the problem.

ChrisMix


Posted on Sun, May 16 2010 08:27
by inwinterhesleeps
Joined on Sat, Dec 03 2005, Posts 68

I don't know about what problems this might bring up, but wouldn't it be wonderful if instead of dealing with this multiple ports business the midi specification was rewritten to have unlimited channel support. I mean that 16 channel limitation is just harking back to the initial hardware days and has no place in a modern DAW anymore.

But who can do this? Perhaps a petition to that organisation?

Posted on Sun, May 16 2010 12:13
by nicolas.soulat
Joined on Sat, Oct 02 2004, France, Posts 68

I don't know if it's even possible technically to rethink this standard.

But it's really a shame that logic won't show the VE Pro Midi port on his channels for it seems to be very easy for cubase and other daws

But if this was possible does the VE pro Audio Unit plugin have to be redeveloped by VSL teams?

Is the alternative to open several instances of VE Pro really viable if I wanted to load a full orchestra mock up? I counted this would be 7 instances optimizing kontakt 4 with intrument banks.....this sounds like way too much...

Thanks Again

Regards

Nicolas

Myspace :
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Posted on Tue, May 18 2010 11:37
by mosso
Joined on Thu, Jun 23 2005, London, England, Posts 376

As Paul has mentioned this is a limitation in the AU standard. If you want this changed then write to Apple to ask for it, or ask them to make Logic compatible with the VST standard. It would be a better to get this sorted at the source rather than expecting VSL to provide a workaround.

It is entirely possible to load multiple instances of VEP - I've seen composers using 9 instances with no problems. Doing it this way also helps for organisation as you can split your sections into instances, which can make it easier to find the instruments when you want to edit them.

M

Martin Thornton
<a href="http://www.mosso.co.uk/" target="_blank">www.mosso.co.uk</a>
Posted on Tue, May 18 2010 13:38
by Karel
Joined on Mon, Jan 19 2009, Belgium, Posts 2173

VST also only supports a single MIDI input port. VST3 and RTAS do support multiple MIDI input ports.

Karel Bassez
Software Engineer
Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Tue, May 18 2010 14:12
by Ashermusic
Joined on Fri, Jan 02 2009, Posts 554
Yes, but the problem becomes screen real estate management. I still think we need a Tile Windows option.
Composer, Logic Pro Certified Trainer, author of "Jumpstart Logic Pro 10.6 " & "Scoring WIth Logic Pro"
www.jayasher.com

3.2 6-Core i7 Mac mini, 64 GB RAM. macOS 12.1
Posted on Wed, May 19 2010 04:52
by Karel
Joined on Mon, Jan 19 2009, Belgium, Posts 2173

I recommend to use Exposé for this, which does exactly that. You can set a shortcut in System Preferences to show only the windows of a single application too.

Karel Bassez
Software Engineer
Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Wed, Jun 30 2010 18:07
by batmandela
Joined on Tue, Jun 29 2010, Posts 5
Hi... I have just finished installing VEPro and am trying to set it up in Logic Pro... Have followed the instructions in the manual to setup a Logic Multi-Instrument. Am having the same problem trying to access multiple Instruments on the VE Server. I came across this thread and realized that perhaps I am not as stupid as I feel..

Please could you give an idiot's guide to how to workaround the AU Midi limitation. I'm confused as to whether I have to setup multiple VE servers, or do I have to load the VE Plugin into multiple Audio Instruments...

And how exactly do I setup the Aux channels. And why would I need to do this if each plugin is on its own instrument strip.

And if this is what we Logic AU users have to do, why is there a "VE Multi Output (16 x stereo" option? What's that for?

Sorry for all the questions but I am obviously missing a vital point here...

Peace!

--

MacPro 2 x 3.2GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon | 16GB DDR2 RAM | MacOS 10.5.8 | Logic Pro 9.1.x | Ableton Live 7 | Apogee Rosetta + X-Symphony | NI Komplete 6 | Spectrasonics | EastWest PLAY | SSL XLogic x2 | Waves | Multiple SoftSynths and Plugs |
MacPro 2 x 3.2GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon | 16GB DDR2 RAM | MacOS 10.6.7 | Logic Pro 9.1.x | Ableton Live 8 | Apogee Rosetta + X-Symphony | Apogee Duet | Dangerous D-Box | NI Komplete 7 | Spectrasonics | EastWest PLAY | SSL XLogic x2 | Waves | Multiple SoftSynths and Plugs | PC i7 Windows 7 running VEPro Servers - similar plugins/softsynths | Vienna Epic Orchestra |
Posted on Wed, Jun 30 2010 20:19
by Ashermusic
Joined on Fri, Jan 02 2009, Posts 554
WARNING: Shameless self-promotion alert!

I have a tutorial on this in my book "Going Pro With Logic Pro 9."
Composer, Logic Pro Certified Trainer, author of "Jumpstart Logic Pro 10.6 " & "Scoring WIth Logic Pro"
www.jayasher.com

3.2 6-Core i7 Mac mini, 64 GB RAM. macOS 12.1
Posted on Wed, Jul 07 2010 18:01
by inwinterhesleeps
Joined on Sat, Dec 03 2005, Posts 68

Batmandela, since no one has responded with an answer to your questions I will try...

Currently the AU specification is limited to 16 midi channels. This means you will have to utilise several VEPro instances, each with a maximum of 16 instruments. For each of these instances you will need to create a multi channel audio instrument in Logic and instantiate the VEPro plugin which can then be "connected" to a VEPro instance running on the VEPro Server. This will automatically create 16 tracks in Logic. Each of these tracks is set from midi ch 1 to 16. These tracks, however, are not individual instruments but rather midi channels of the one audio instrument. Any changes you make to the channel strip will be reflected in all the other channels of this instrument. Hence this limits your ability to tweak the individual Vienna Instruments running on the server. This is where aux channels can come in handy. If you use the 16 channel version of the VEPro plugin then you can route any of the instruments (using the output menu within the VEPro interface) to an aux which you have to create within Logic by pressing the little + symbol in the mixer window near the bottom of that audio instrument. So if you route an instrument to output 3-4 and then create an aux in Logic, you have a separate audio path to fine tune the sound of that instrument. 

This wasn't totally obvious to me either so I hope this explanation helps.

Cheers,

Tom

Posted on Wed, Jul 21 2010 01:28
by stephentrask
Joined on Sat, Oct 18 2003, Los Angeles, Posts 20

My current set-up uses a metaframe with a number of open projects, each linked in Logic with the AU Plug-In.  You say you've seen composers using 9 instances with no problems.  I have been getting a lot of overload messages using about 9 instances of the latest VEP build.  Will I get better performance if I consolidate some of my projects and have fewer instances of the VEP AU?  Are they particularly CPU greedy?  Are there some other settings I should be paying attention to?  I am working on an 8 core Mac Pro 2nd Generation with 26 GB of RAM.  

Posted on Wed, Jul 21 2010 09:09
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2703

what buffer size are you using in VSL and in Logic ?

MacBook Pro 2019 16" + 2 x Odisseey G9 49" Big Sur

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd

Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Big Band Orchestra series, Many Synchronised libs
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra 2, Art Conductor, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Wed, Jul 21 2010 14:40
by stephentrask
Joined on Sat, Oct 18 2003, Los Angeles, Posts 20

Hey Cyril,

I've been experimenting with different buffer sizes in Logic, from 256 up to the max.  For the VEP Au I have two buffers set.  I am wondering if I should turn off plug-in delay compensation, which might only be confusing the matter.  

When I have a Kontakt running in the VEP projects, should I set the buffer size to 0?  Are all these different buffer sizes confusing things even more?

Also, I did read a link in another thread regarding Logic Playback, stating that unless one is actually recording on an instrument track, a different track should be selected, for instance the Master Output, as Logic goes into live mode simply be selecting a track, which is great for capturing a take when record wasn't activated but is quite a strain on the system, especially if there are already instruments playing on that channel strip.

Posted on Thu, Jul 22 2010 10:34
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2703

1024 is a good figure for Logic if you don't have to play on a keyboard

I have set latency in VE pro pref to 1024 too

Best

Cyril

MacBook Pro 2019 16" + 2 x Odisseey G9 49" Big Sur

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd

Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Big Band Orchestra series, Many Synchronised libs
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra 2, Art Conductor, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
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