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Shame on Dimension Brass.
Last post Sat, Feb 05 2011 by fritzflotow, 56 replies.
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Posted on Wed, Jan 19 2011 01:43
by fritzflotow
Joined on Mon, Apr 23 2007, Posts 322

Well, I was also quite overwhelmed that after having spend 10.000€ + (I actually don't wanna know how much it really was) on VSL samples now it starts all over again with a new dimension series. But it seems, this will be brass specific. Since Herb avoided to answere this regarding strings, there might be something under the hood... who knows ...

I really don't mind VSL pushing it further with recording more libraries. After all, VSL samples have their weak points, too. So why not overcome them?

But: The new dimension Brass doesn't really convince me enogh to invest in it for 500€. It's so basic in terms of articulations that there will be a volume two. Maybe even more ... So I think of more like 1000€+ investment to have it complete. That is to much, considering what I already have spent on brass. But that is by no means a complaint - just my decision. The sound didn't really beat good renditions mixing Brass I+II with other brass samples. I can see (and hear) some advantages with this library, but for me they don't justify the price ....

On the other hand, there is one thing, VSL should be considering and that is their hardcore customers (of course I am biased here...). In the past there were more special deals for customers that have a lot of VSL stuff, already. Maybe a special deal would have convinced me to buy, so I am not sure if that is really so smart for the company. In the past I bought some VSL libraries that Ibarely used up to this day, exept for maybe one instrument. And I am not sure, how often I will have the needs for some of the more exotic instruments or articulations in the future. Still I bought them, cause it was just a good deal ... VSL must know, how good dimension brass is selling right now, so I am sure they will react in their own interest.

And one more thing: It's also important, that customers kind of like the company on a long term ... for my part I haven't bought anything from East West any more for a long time. Even though some libs sounded pretty amazing in some terms. I just don't like them any more ... ;-)

Posted on Wed, Jan 19 2011 03:08
by gusttsilis
Joined on Mon, Jun 26 2006, Los Angeles, Posts 17

 I agree, but the divisi on all sectionals such as strings, brass, woodwinds will be a fine addtion to this technology and you can be sure there is more under the hood.

Searching for the truth and honesty in sampled sounds for the Orchestra............
Posted on Wed, Jan 19 2011 08:55
by Dup
Joined on Fri, Aug 13 2004, Posts 178

 Hello Titi,
I can understand your kind of frustration after having bought all the stuff for around 10'0000 euros and don't have more privillege than new buyer!

But the econmical business  has changed..before manufacture gave presents to their old customer to say thank you,like great to have the possibility to work and to work with you and so on...

Now it's exactly the inverse : hello new customer : buy something and I'll give you a present.Thanks to become a customer.

Posted on Wed, Jan 19 2011 09:16
by Sergino Futurino
Joined on Thu, Dec 18 2003, Italy, Posts 652

 Two things,

1. never heard anything as good as Dimension brass on my PC. Yesterday a professional classical musician came to my house and he can't distinguish a  Janacek Sinfonietta on You-tube and me playing Dimension brass horns. It is definitively a step ahead, Like every step ahead, it makes you feel you need it, but than there will be another step, and so on. I have spent a lot of money on the first giga-sampler samples but now they are passed away.
2. during these years VSL has already offered many discounts to old clients. The last offer closed some days ago.

That said, is a pity that there is always a step ahead in life and they sometime costs more than we can afford.

www.sergiobrunetti.it
Windows 10 on Vertex4 SSD - I7 3960x overclocked @4.0 Ghz - 32 GB RAM -
2010 MacbookPro 2.66 Ghz 8 Giga RAM -
MOTU: 2408 MK3, 24i, Traveler,MIDI Express XT
Studio One 4.1 Pro, Notion 6.5, Sibelius 6.2, Kontakt 5.6
VE Pro 6, VI Pro 2, Vienna Suite, Vienna MIR Pro w/Roompacks 1 and 2,
Libraries (preload size 2408): Special Edition Standard and Plus, Appassionata I, Solo Strings I, Dimension Brass, Percussion, Soprano Choir, Upright Bass, Flugelhorn, Saxophones, Concert guitar, Jazz Drums, Epic Orchestra, Dimension Strings
Posted on Wed, Jan 19 2011 14:18
by andyjh
Joined on Wed, Dec 15 2010, Posts 600

Sergino Futurino wrote:
2. during these years VSL has already offered many discounts to old clients.
 

Well, I don't really want to complain about anything VSL do, but as an owner of all the DVD libraries, the offer in December to get a free extended library and discount on more libraries was no good to me, as I already own them all, so that offer was no good to the most loyal customer, but of course there isn't going to be an offer suitable for someone that doesn't need to buy any thing else,  so it's a self defeating point really, thought I mention it though....

What about VSL doing some special extra extended library add ons, that are not available to buy, but are offered to "special customers" (not necessarily free) from time to time, a bit like the Jazz Drums situation .... 

Posted on Wed, Jan 19 2011 15:53
by mike connelly
Joined on Wed, Apr 28 2004, Posts 260

Of course VSL isn't obligated to do anything.  But offering deals for loyal customers keeps them happy (and generally keeps them buying more and passing along good word of mouth).  Some companies do it, some don't.  I know one of the other string libraries has a new library coming out soon and they're offering it to people who own the original for half price.  Sure they're not making as much on those customers but it sure keeps them happy and wanting more.

Posted on Wed, Jan 19 2011 16:00
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
mike connelly wrote:

Of course VSL isn't obligated to do anything.  But offering deals for loyal customers keeps them happy (and generally keeps them buying more and passing along good word of mouth).  Some companies do it, some don't.  I know one of the other string libraries has a new library coming out soon and they're offering it to people who own the original for half price.  Sure they're not making as much on those customers but it sure keeps them happy and wanting more.

 

I understand what you're saying and to some extent agree. However, I hate it when clients try to re-negotiate the price of the next job downwards, just because they've given me work in the past. It always leaves a nasty taste in my mouth.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Wed, Jan 19 2011 16:42
by Pekay
Joined on Sun, Apr 26 2009, Stockholm, Posts 81

VSL is the best symphonic library on the market right now. No doubt about it. We all love you guys for making our musical dreams come true!

But do not underestimate the significance of keeping customers, old and new, happy. It can be done by various means, for example by pricing models. But it is very important, no matter how good products you're selling.

So far, I'm happy and buying your fantastic proucts.

Best

Pekay

Posted on Wed, Jan 19 2011 18:34
by RainerL
Joined on Wed, Jul 13 2005, Germany, Posts 79

Someone complains that he as a good customer isn´t treated better than a new customer, concerning to an entirely new product. But compared with a new customer he has the benefit of products that have the best quality, of software which is sophisticated more than other and which has the longest half-life period... This is the real commitment of VSL, which no new customer has.

Of course it woulf be fine for customers to profit not only in case of upgrades, but also if entirely new products are developed with significant effort and costs. But I can´t understand that someone takes this for granted. This mentality is not my mentality.

Posted on Wed, Jan 19 2011 22:53
by Sergino Futurino
Joined on Thu, Dec 18 2003, Italy, Posts 652

 Better not having special offers than end up with TASCAM or something like thatGeeked

www.sergiobrunetti.it
Windows 10 on Vertex4 SSD - I7 3960x overclocked @4.0 Ghz - 32 GB RAM -
2010 MacbookPro 2.66 Ghz 8 Giga RAM -
MOTU: 2408 MK3, 24i, Traveler,MIDI Express XT
Studio One 4.1 Pro, Notion 6.5, Sibelius 6.2, Kontakt 5.6
VE Pro 6, VI Pro 2, Vienna Suite, Vienna MIR Pro w/Roompacks 1 and 2,
Libraries (preload size 2408): Special Edition Standard and Plus, Appassionata I, Solo Strings I, Dimension Brass, Percussion, Soprano Choir, Upright Bass, Flugelhorn, Saxophones, Concert guitar, Jazz Drums, Epic Orchestra, Dimension Strings
Posted on Thu, Jan 20 2011 12:54
by Titi
Joined on Fri, Dec 29 2006, FRANCE, Posts 39

I'm happy and feel reassured of course to see that everybody ( more than 90% )  think like me : VSL is fantastic ( no doubt about this ) but it's a shame to have no intelligent commercial attitude with their regular customers.

The new dimension brass is simply to expensive for its mission : find a little part of the solution for an old problem, the question of divisi.

495 euros and soon 595 euros to have a few brass divisi sounds, when we have already spent 2000 euros for the brass sounds ... 

David.

Posted on Thu, Jan 20 2011 13:12
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

Sorry to harp on, but you haven't even got 90% on this thread (more like 50% I would imagine). If we include all the thousands of customers who haven't responded to this thread, then your "everybody" becomes a tiny proportion of users.

Just correcting your maths. Wink

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Thu, Jan 20 2011 13:27
by kleinholgi
Joined on Sat, May 09 2009, Posts 171
andyjh wrote:

Sergino Futurino wrote:
2. during these years VSL has already offered many discounts to old clients.
 

Well, I don't really want to complain about anything VSL do, but as an owner of all the DVD libraries, the offer in December to get a free extended library and discount on more libraries was no good to me, as I already own them all, so that offer was no good to the most loyal customer, but of course there isn't going to be an offer suitable for someone that doesn't need to buy any thing else,  so it's a self defeating point really, thought I mention it though....

What about VSL doing some special extra extended library add ons, that are not available to buy, but are offered to "special customers" (not necessarily free) from time to time, a bit like the Jazz Drums situation .... 

The UAD forum also was filled with that complaint frequently.

Rewarding users, who already own the full package, is difficult. Sometimes UAD gave a "cash voucher" that was not time limited to them, so they could profit from it when the next product is available.

Regarding discount schemes, we as useres can only give some ideas, but we have to accept, that it is the companies right to set up its pricing table.

IMO a very simple scheme, which gives bigger discounts the more products or value has been invested in, would be fair and easy. Like Voxengo does it e.g.

This also would solve the problems around the crossgrade topics like " Why can´t I get discounts on the extended DVD strings, though I have the download version " etc etc.

In the end the only "weapon"  the customer has, is buying the products that are priced well and offer good quality for the $$ invested.

If you don´t like it or it is too expensive, leave it. As simple as that.

Posted on Thu, Jan 20 2011 13:31
by Agostino
Joined on Fri, Dec 25 2009, France, Posts 26
David said "when we have already spent 2000 euros for the brass sounds"?????????

I guess it means that you have purchased the Cube....then I totally agree with you, your percentage is growing a little...
Posted on Thu, Jan 20 2011 13:38
by Titi
Joined on Fri, Dec 29 2006, FRANCE, Posts 39

OK DG, let's ask each person who participated at this thread to answer at my last mail :

1. OK David I agree with you.

... or ...

2. Sorry David, but I don't agree with you.

We'll see :)

Of course, people who didn't give their opinion are very welcome.

Thanks to all :)

David.

Posted on Thu, Jan 20 2011 13:41
by fritzflotow
Joined on Mon, Apr 23 2007, Posts 322
kleinholgi wrote:

In the end the only "weapon"  the customer has, is buying the products that are priced well and offer good quality for the $ invested.

If you don´t like it or it is too expensive, leave it. As simple as that.

Yes, it is that simple, but as a frequent customer I also like to tell them, when I feel something is not in place. They may ignore that or listen to it, what they will probably do, when many people think that way.

Posted on Thu, Jan 20 2011 16:44
by kleinholgi
Joined on Sat, May 09 2009, Posts 171
fritzflotow wrote:

Yes, it is that simple, but as a frequent customer I also like to tell them, when I feel something is not in place. They may ignore that or listen to it, what they will probably do, when many people think that way.

True.

And it´s a good thing to discuss it here, because the VSL forum is one of the few, where company personel is actively posting personally.

On the other hand the absolute voting is in the webstore when it comes to "Apply credit card No. now"

.

For me, e.g. I´ve been a die hard fan of the UAD1 card. But in the last years didn´t spend a single $ for their obviously altered product strategy and pricing scheme (software 30% up, hardware 100%-200% up, additionally including some compatibility problems).

In the end it is all your choice.

Posted on Thu, Jan 20 2011 17:45
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5539

Titi wrote:

find a little part of the solution for an old problem, the question of divisi.

495 euros and soon 595 euros to have a few brass divisi sounds

THIS IS A TOTAL DISTORTION.  It is not a "few brass divisi sounds" !!! 

The Dimension Brass is a new library of complete orchestral brass and a NEW TECHNOLOGY.  This technology was not available at the time of the original solo/ensemble brass collections and new work was done to create it.  This has to be paid for.  For it to be commercially viable it has to be sold, not given away or severely discounted to someone who bought the previous collections.  Because they are not the same products.   They are absolutely different.  You are confusing the fact that they REPRESENT the same orchestral instruments with the fact that they are completely different sets of samples and software.  If VSL was simply repackaging old samples with new software - then you might have a cause for complaint.  But they are not.  They have recorded a completely new library integrated with the new Vi software in a new approach for making it more useable and practical to a composer.  This is exactly what was needed for many situations in solving not a "little part of a solution"  but a HUGE problem in sample scoring.   I have worked hours and hours trying to get solo instruments to split and then rejoin into various sized combinations - something that happens all the time with an orchestra - and it never really worked.  I often compromised MIDI performances and changed orchestrations SIMPLY TO AVOID THIS PROBLEM.  So it is a major problem solved and another great innovation that people ought to be excited about. 

I personally hope this approach is used in more new collections.  Herb was right to point out that the woodwinds don't need it as much because their timbres don't interact as much and the combinations are in general smaller (unless you're Richard Strauss).  But strings!  That is another matter...  Hmm  

Posted on Thu, Jan 20 2011 20:02
by mike connelly
Joined on Wed, Apr 28 2004, Posts 260

William wrote:
For it to be commercially viable it has to be sold, not given away or severely discounted to someone who bought the previous collections.

I wouldn't expect a "severe" discount, but even a modest one to people who own the cube or even the full brass libraries would be a nice gesture.  And doing that might even lead to more sales and more money made.

Also, it should be pointed out that there are sample libraries that have had free additions of new material for existing customers and severely discounted expansion libraries - it's commercially viable in that case because it motivates more people to go from not customers to new customers to existing customers, and it keeps existing customers happy and more enthusiastic about buying new products from them.  It's not like higher prices are the only way to bring in more revenue, you can also do it by selling more copies.

Posted on Fri, Jan 21 2011 17:27
by Simon Ravn
Joined on Tue, Dec 10 2002, Copenhagen, Denmark, Posts 352

The only thing I have to add is an issues nobody seems to have brought up - which means I might be alone on this Stick out tongue

But, I have no other VSL libraries that made me feel the need to buy the Vienna Instruments Pro plugin, so I don't have that. I bought Vienna Ensemble Pro since i needed that and it provides a whole great server environment/template setup for your samples.

However, to really exploit the feautures of Dimension Brass, you need Vienna Instruments Pro - and that is not included within the package! So I actually need to shell out another 125 Euros in addition to the price of the library to actually be able to use it properly. I think that is quite curious, really.

- Simon Ravn
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