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Frustrated with VEPro, PT and Kontakt
Last post Thu, Jun 23 2011 by stereotype, 31 replies.
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Posted on Wed, Jun 15 2011 13:12
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1807

ok. you say that using regular plugins works much better. You are preferring to distribute nearly all the cores to PT, correct? So the plugins are part of PT's workload, they would be using the cores I suppose...

as opposed to: You aren't giving VE Pro any muscle to do the work. If it is true that PT requires all but one core, you're SOL with VEP on the same machine, I think.

here's why I get such good performance I think: I have VEP on an octocore slave and I distribute all the cores available to it. 4 instances, 4 'threads', which means cores, per each. I am distributing the cores as evenly as possible and I'm quite deliberate about it.

You are giving VEP 1 core and the rest to PT? 

 I don't know as I have never tried allowing VEP just 1 core with all the others in use, but it seems like a bad idea to me. When I did run as local host, I gave VEP more cores than Cubase, quad core machine, 8 logical threads, I might give Cubase 2 of them. I would never have thought to give more cores to a sequencer, that isn't the idea of VEP I think.

MacBook Pro 16,1: 2.3 GHz 8-core i9
64GB 2667MHz DDR4
OSX 10.15.7
VE Pro 7.1056, Cubase Pro 11.0.0
Posted on Thu, Jun 16 2011 03:59
by stereotype
Joined on Tue, Apr 05 2011, Posts 31

No. I can run PT at any core setting. In fact, at the point I'm doing
VEP, many times I'm only using a stereo 2 mix as the only audio to do
midi programming to. So I have no trouble setting PT to say, only 1
core; leaving 7 open. Someone else added the comment that PT runs best
set at 1 core less than the number of processors. In actuallity, PT runs
fine on any number of cores (respective to the what's needed for
track/plugin usage). So my comment about PT and cores were in response to
that. My point is, that ANY PT core setting and ANY VEP setting made
accordingly gives me no different performance. I still hit the same wall
at CPU spikes, clicks and garbles dropping the PT buffer below 512 and using 1 instance of VEP withonly a few channels and Kontakt on each. I get vitually the same results using Reaper or Logic, instead of PT. I get the same results if using VEP locally or networked, with either the 8 core Mac or the quad core PC as slave or master. So I feel I've got some computer issue somewhere, but honestly, I'm just dumbfounded and don't know what else to try.

Posted on Thu, Jun 16 2011 05:45
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1807

I have seen it said more than once that PT is notoriously inefficient for a samples-based M.O., BUT -

I would think logically that nothing you do changes anything at all indicates a problem that isn't software-related.

I had horrible issues, spiking at any latency with Kontakt as a plugin in Cubase when I moved to my intel mac, which I blamed on my MOTU 828mkii... drivers were reported to be problematic and I saw similar issues reported; and so I bought an RME card, for instance. I think I was right.

MacBook Pro 16,1: 2.3 GHz 8-core i9
64GB 2667MHz DDR4
OSX 10.15.7
VE Pro 7.1056, Cubase Pro 11.0.0
Posted on Thu, Jun 16 2011 06:24
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1807
stereotype wrote:

 in the manual, it suggests that a setting of 1 would be nice for an 8 Core setup. But I've tried it all. No matter what I do, the CPU runs at over 50% at under a 512 buffer for just 3 channels with Kontakt installed; 1 sound in each Kontakt.

although I think this won't help right now as I would say something unique to your system is wrong....
You should realize that 'a setting of 1 core each being 'nice' would be predicated on, for an 8-core, 16 instances, unless you have some 8-core that doesn't hyperthread, in which case 8 instances. On a slave. When I ran it on the same machine as Cubase, which wasn't for long, I gave Cubase as little as possible. Three instances, five cores per, or 5 instances 3 cores per - 1 left for Cubase.

MacBook Pro 16,1: 2.3 GHz 8-core i9
64GB 2667MHz DDR4
OSX 10.15.7
VE Pro 7.1056, Cubase Pro 11.0.0
Posted on Sat, Jun 18 2011 04:51
by stereotype
Joined on Tue, Apr 05 2011, Posts 31

 I know that on Macs with hyper threading, you may see the option to set PT to use virtual cores (i.e. 8 physical cores with hyper threading will show an option for 16 in the PT preferences). However, PT doesn't really run stable using hyperthreaded cores. And my Mac never has the option to set anything accept 1-8 cores in PT anyhow. So yes, I didn't know it. But maybe my Mac being a first generation 8 core doesn't hyperthread or some other issue. But I get the same results using the quad core PC. So while sometimes I feel like it's hardware related, it also seems to not be at times.

I appreciate everyone's patience with me. Maybe I should back up and try something different. Even though I've tried about every configuration there is possible, maybe the problem is really me and my confusion on the terms cores, instances, etc. Lets take just a local setup with no networking. With my 8 core Mac (8GB of RAM, all streaming samples like Kontakt library on a dedicated internal 7200 RPM drive), PT 9 ( native; not HD), VEP and Kontakt, how would you guys set cores, instances, midi channels and instruments in VEP to multiple sounds using Kontakt, etc?

Posted on Sat, Jun 18 2011 06:23
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1807

With an early enough MacPro, there isn't hyperthreading.

as far as cores distribution, again, I believe in even as possible and using as many cores as possible. EG: 12 Kontakt instances same machine as PT, I am going to predicate distro on 2 cores for PT, even number seems ok. So, 3 instances of VEP, 4 Kontakt each. Set your VEP prefs to 2 threads per instance as you have four things to distro 8 cores to. if 24 kontakts, 8 ktkt by 3 VEP, 2 threads per instance. If you can get a maths where 1 thread per instance works, assuming you can starve PT to this extent... I think you follow my reasoning. Predicate the distro by what PT needs according to the load there.

But, I don't think that networking is your issue, because it works for people. As per slave usage, just follow that, even distro and use up those cores.

I can leave my buffers at 128 until the cows come home, so long as I don't start relying on Cubase for a lot of FX. A whole lot of audio might get me there to sloweer performance as well, and I'll freeze that audio. Cubase is SLOW under OSX, it isn't really built right for it. This is why I rely on VEP on a network. I don't know PT, but tbh I don't envy you guys.

I THINK that in the case where problems have occurred in a setup, that corruption occurs. I do believe that when you're running on an overheated CPU and overheated RAM, this happens. In your case I would uninstall VE Pro, including preferences. The uninstaller provided in your VE Pro applications folder isn't going to trash prefs, so do that manually.

MacBook Pro 16,1: 2.3 GHz 8-core i9
64GB 2667MHz DDR4
OSX 10.15.7
VE Pro 7.1056, Cubase Pro 11.0.0
Posted on Sat, Jun 18 2011 17:14
by stereotype
Joined on Tue, Apr 05 2011, Posts 31

Thank you for all the help Civilization. While I'm sure I traveled across these settings before, I'm going to try them a bit more intentionally. One more question for the moment......and I apologize for my lack of knowledge. But I think the terminology is effecting my understanding. Thread......what does that mean? I'm trying to grasp the concept here of spreading things around on cores but I'm confusd by what I'm doing when, say, I set it to 2 threads. Is that saying it's using 2 cores? I know this is really a silly question. But hey, I've go to start somewhere learning this stuff.

Posted on Sat, Jun 18 2011 17:33
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1807

'thread' is the same thing as 'core'.

MacBook Pro 16,1: 2.3 GHz 8-core i9
64GB 2667MHz DDR4
OSX 10.15.7
VE Pro 7.1056, Cubase Pro 11.0.0
Posted on Sat, Jun 18 2011 17:44
by Karel
Joined on Mon, Jan 19 2009, Belgium, Posts 2173

It's actually not the same. I suggest reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thread_(computer_science) if you really want to know ;). With regards to VE Pro, threads and cores can be considered more or less equal though.

Karel Bassez
Software Engineer
Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Sat, Jun 18 2011 18:08
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1807

I only meant for practical purposes to help this user. I am aware of the difference.  Actually It isn't that fascinating to me. o_*

MacBook Pro 16,1: 2.3 GHz 8-core i9
64GB 2667MHz DDR4
OSX 10.15.7
VE Pro 7.1056, Cubase Pro 11.0.0
Posted on Thu, Jun 23 2011 00:50
by stereotype
Joined on Tue, Apr 05 2011, Posts 31

Just thought I'd let you know, I'm doing pretty well now. A 128 buffer is possible for a limited time. Several midi tracks into programming I'll need to go to 256, but I can deal with it for orchestral sounds. I still get this same result with either a local setup or adding a networked slave.

However, reducing PT to 3 cores, and 2 instances locally set to 2 cores each, with 1 left for the computer seems to work the best. I can also do instances set to 1 core each with little or no noticable change. Adding the slave is working fine. Pretty much the same settings apply other than no PT to adjust there. While I know I'd been through these settings previously, it's easy to get confused in such invoived troubleshooting. Also, I appreciate the explanations of things (especially to "Civilization 3"). I've had to wrap my head around the terminology and a new way of working.

I think as I progress I'll have to think about a newer computer with more cores, hyperthreading and capable of running a 64 bit OS. But in the meantime, I'm getting work done so I'm thrilled. Thanks.

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