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BWV 1041 with the "good old" Chambers
Last post Thu, Nov 24 2011 by Erik, 25 replies.
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Posted on Wed, Nov 09 2011 01:59
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1763

Hello all

Last month I had to produce Bach's BWV_1041 as a PlayAlong.

The customer didn't order an audio file but the midi-file for playing his own VI.

(Now he has the possibility to fit the tempo to his abilities and he can mix the pieces as he wish to have it)

So I believe I don't do anything wrong when I publish some seconds of "my" result.

I was (re-) surprised how versatile the Chambers are and how easy it is to realize different styles and interpretations.

Yet again, this example shall show that the Chambers still are a good value even if you need to play Baroque Music.

http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/Cre_BWV_1041_123_Exc.mp3

Excerpts: Allegro Moderato / Andante (style wished by customer) / Allegro Assai

Libraries: Chamber Strings / Harpsichord (both VSL)

One last thing:

Sometimes I think it would be a great thing to have around 3 different master pieces (reverences) which

every Library has to play.

I believe that such a testing system could uncover the weakness of every Library.

What do you think?

Have fun, I had it as well

Beat Kaufmann

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Wed, Nov 09 2011 04:10
by corte1
Joined on Sat, Oct 16 2010, Posts 85

Beat,

This is really fabulous. The realism achieved is amazing. Is this the Standard Chamber Strings DVD only, or did you also use some of the Extended Chamber library?

Corte

Posted on Wed, Nov 09 2011 04:38
by bogdan
Joined on Fri, Apr 18 2008, Canada/ Edmonton , Posts 286

SUPERB !!!

Posted on Wed, Nov 09 2011 08:23
by Steve Martin
Joined on Sat, Sep 17 2005, Queensland, Australia, Posts 568

Hi Beat,

sounds amazing!Yes

thanks for sharing this with us.

best,

Steve Big Smile

Posted on Wed, Nov 09 2011 08:36
by Steve Martin
Joined on Sat, Sep 17 2005, Queensland, Australia, Posts 568

Hi again Beat,

sorry, but I forgot to ask, is it ok to tell us what reverb are you using here?

best,

SteveBig Smile

Posted on Wed, Nov 09 2011 08:43
by dorremifasol
Joined on Fri, Oct 22 2010, Barcelona, Posts 59

I'm not surprised but delighted, everything mr Beat does sounds incredible.

Intel i9 9900KF, 48Gb RAM, Windows 10 64bit, Cubase 12 / Nuendo 11
Posted on Wed, Nov 09 2011 08:47
by el-russo
Joined on Wed, Jul 11 2007, Posts 69

Outstanding! I have to say, Beat, your Bach renditions were the reason I chose VSL years ago.

Posted on Wed, Nov 09 2011 09:03
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1763
corte1 wrote:

Beat,

This is really fabulous. The realism achieved is amazing. Is this the Standard Chamber Strings DVD only, or did you also use some of the Extended Chamber library?

Corte

Hello Corte

I very often used détaché short and long and of course the dynamics "dim/cresc"-articulations. Once you can listen to the trill B which starts with the upper note (Baroque).

Most of these articulations are included with the extended library (unfortunately?).

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Wed, Nov 09 2011 09:10
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1763
Steve Martin wrote:

Hi again Beat,

sorry, but I forgot to ask, is it ok to tell us what reverb are you using here?

best,

SteveBig Smile

Hi Steve

As you can see, it was not important to get a nice mix so I used my every-day reverb BREEZE.

A nice reverb when you just need some tail

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Wed, Nov 09 2011 09:10
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1763
Steve Martin wrote:

Hi again Beat,

sorry, but I forgot to ask, is it ok to tell us what reverb are you using here?

best,

SteveBig Smile

Hi Steve

As you can see, it was not important to get a nice mix so I used my every-day reverb BREEZE.

A nice reverb when you just need some tail

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Wed, Nov 09 2011 11:02
by Steve Martin
Joined on Sat, Sep 17 2005, Queensland, Australia, Posts 568

Hi Beat,

thanks for sharing  that info. I'll have to look that up.

best,

SteveBig Smile

Posted on Wed, Nov 09 2011 12:24
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1763

dorremifaso, bogdan, el-russo

Thanks for all your compliments Smile Embarrassed

A lot of success

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Wed, Nov 09 2011 17:57
by Mahlon
Joined on Sun, Jan 08 2006, The decadent South, Posts 441

Very nice, Beat. Those Chamber strings can't be stopped! What  great library they are.

Mahlon

Posted on Thu, Nov 10 2011 03:00
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5704

That does sound very good.  The celli soli sounded a bit too uniform and a little MIDI-ish.  But the overall performance is amazingly good. 

Posted on Thu, Nov 10 2011 03:25
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1763
William wrote:

...The celli soli sounded a bit too uniform and a little MIDI-ish... 

Hi William

That's because of the missing Hermode-Tuning... ;-)

I agree with you.

1. Unfortunately I couldn't use VIpro with the humanizer because the end user doesn't own it.

2. Further, here we have the evidence that we need a lot more different sounding samples of the same type.

    Our "fate" is, that we often have just one articulation for a certain situation which comes closest to the reality.

    If we have 100 times the same situation as we have it with the Bach accomapniment we need to take 100 times the same sample - that's quasi midi.

3. This performance here has no tempo variation because the end user will do the variations himself.

    So the simple Cello parts (accomaniment of the soloviolin with the cellos) sound very inflexible at the moment, yes.

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Fri, Nov 18 2011 15:26
by Erik
Joined on Sat, Nov 20 2004, The Netherlands, Posts 144

Hi Beat,

Compliments for your “good old” Chambers version!

Beat Kaufmann wrote:

One last thing: Sometimes I think it would be a great thing to have around 3 different master pieces (reverences) which every Library has to play. I believe that such a testing system could uncover the weakness of every Library. What do you think?

I always have been quite interested in comparing libraries on their weak and strong points. Inspired by your suggestion/question hereabove,  I have made a different version with different libraries. I have tried to make it in the baroque performance tradition with not too much vibrato.

I have made two versions (with the same librairies btw):
1. Strings with only the cembalo, no solo violin.
2. Full version: all strings, solo violin (!!) and cembalo (which is the Grimaldi of Pianoteq btw)

Just for the sake of comparison: I did not use any VSL here. Stage positioning according to baroque style: the continuo parts Vlc., cembalo and solo centered in front; second level vl.1-vl.2-vla.

If interested in the choice of libraries, please let me know. Beat, I hope you like it!

Best,

Erik

Posted on Sat, Nov 19 2011 01:08
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1763

Hi Erik

Good idea, to publish the piece with another library. Thanks for your excellent job, Erik and for doing this for us.

I'm looking forward to know which library you used...

I've updatet my BWV 1041 with the solo violin as well for a better comparison.

Unfortunately I have not the time for doing it till the end of the piece and also for playing the violin in a perfect way.

So there are still some "hicks" which should be improved and the piece will fade out...

As you mentioned: We don't have enough samples without vibrato with the VSL-Library.

Full version: all Strings, solo violin and cembalo

Stagepositions with my mix

Front: Solo Violin / Behind it: Viols1-Vliolas-Cellos-CembaloViols2

Have fun. Let's unravel the secret about your libraries later on. Maybe some others will guess first as well.

All the best

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Sat, Nov 19 2011 02:26
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5704

Don't get mad at me as I am not trying to be obnoxious but feel that criticisms should be made if something is posted, not just constant praise. 

The difference between these two Erik performances on the one hand, and the Beat Kaufman/VSL on the other, is mind-boggling.  The Erik one is instantly obvious as digital samples, with little definition or clarity, and almost no expression.  It is not horrible notation type transcription - it is better than that - but it is completely artificial sounding.  What is that lower sound?  Is that a cello? Is sounds like a synth.  Also the harpsichord or cembalo or whatever it is - it is difficult to tell - sounds really bad. 

The VSL version is astoundingly real and totally expressive, almost exactly like a live performance.  It is a totally convincing  proof of how samples can truly do an artistic performance of complex music, despite what many classical and recording musicians continue to say - because all they have heard is the  Garritan orchestra or whatever lesser library was used on this particular performance.   Please post what it is.  I am curious now.   Also, not trying to be irritating, just being honest.  It is not the performance by Erik, which seems very musical, but  the samples and programming that  I am reacting against. 

Posted on Sat, Nov 19 2011 16:22
by Erik
Joined on Sat, Nov 20 2004, The Netherlands, Posts 144

Hi Beat,

The orchestra: Session Strings Pro, the solo violin: Spitfire (I didn't have much time getting to know this product better since it was released this week).

Beat, nice version you have made with the solo violin now! Sounds good!

The lack of clarity may be a result of reverb settings or even the miking of the instruments: VSL is always very close miked, Session strings obviously not. I haven't made my versions to promote whatever library btw, but I have tried to make the best out of it.

I frequently also use many samples of VSL (see the Britten contribution, Young Personal's Guide to the Orchestra, from my part), but it remains a challenge to see what other libraires do with the same basic midi information, plus of course all sound plugins afterwards. I don't have the feeling of what has been labeled here as a completely artificial product btw. So I am eager to know what other people think.

Best,

Erik

Posted on Sun, Nov 20 2011 01:10
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5704

 A specific thing I dislike about the session strings "pro" version is how the difference between the quick legato and spiccato/staccato sixteenths or eights in the pattern of two slurred followed by two staccato is almost undetectable. I was listening for the difference between articulations and could hardly hear them, whereas in the VSL versions, they are very clearly delineated and sound just like those played live.  Those fast clear articulations are  essential in an allegro baroque piece.

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