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Posted on Sun, Nov 20 2011 05:04
by JT3_Jon
Joined on Fri, Jun 04 2004, Palmdale CA (1 hour north of LA), Posts 469

Hello VSL Team,

First off congratulations on such a great update! I LOVE the idea of using my slave for more than just sample playback, but also for audio effect processing! WAY COOL!

However, I must admit the implementation is a little bit of a drag. Though its GREAT to be able to add an effect insert directly on a channel strip in Logic and process that plugin on my slave VE Pro, it stinks that in order to hear the resulting sound I have to create an new aux track and bus the input into this new track! DARN!! So if I'm using a combination of insert plugins on my host and on my slave for a single instrument; Instead of audio following through a single channel strip on a single track, I now have to manage separate tracks! This becomes a real problem for iloked plugins, as they are limited to one machine! I can easily imagine a scenario where my main DAW has the ilok, and I want to run other effects off my SLAVE, and I could end up needing 3-4 tracks for a single instrument, all of which I need to see in my arrange for automation of the plugins, etc. Talk about a NIGHTMARE!! 

A GREAT solution / work flow enhancer would be to do something similar to Logics I/O plugin, in which you not only set the audio output, but the INPUT as well in this single plugin; no additional aux tracks needed. If you could code VE Pro's Audio Input plugin with a similar functionality to Logics own I/O plugin, this would allow us to route the output from VE pro directly back into the audio input insert plugin, so the audio chain continues on a single channel strip! I cannot stress enough how much EASIER this would make mixing, as we can have all our insert effects on a single channel strip, which is the working method we are use to experiencing, allowing us once again to have a single track for a single instrument. 

Please consider this feature request, as I feel strongly that its a necessity in order to properly use your amazingly awesome VE pro as an effects host. Thank you very much for your products and for pushing the bounds of whats possible! I hope my feature request doest detract from all the other wonderful enhancements made to VE pro. I'm LOVING THEM; especailly the ability to use more than 16 midi channels! Thanks again and keep up the great work!! 

Epic Prog rock music using VSL samples - http://www.aeonsatori.com

System specs: Mac Pro 5,1 3.33GHz 12 core 48GB RAM
OS 10.11.6 Cubase 8.5 Vienna Ensemble Pro 6.0.27022(64-bit)

PC: Core i7-2600 32GB Ram, Windows 8, Vienna Ensemble Pro 6.0.17011(64-bit)
Posted on Sun, Nov 20 2011 09:56
by TabSel
Joined on Thu, Jun 30 2011, Posts 96
I thought VE Pro 5 audio input plugins were INSERT plugins? Seems not?

You have to Insert an audio input plugin into the DAWs channel strip in order to send audio to the Server. In the DAW, the signal chain ends there, so there is no signal send "through" the audio input plugin?

Instead, you receive the return signal at an ve pro instrument plugin? That's bad and leads to clutter!

Would it be possible to extend the audio input plugin to an "Audio Insert" plugin, where you specify the input channel# to the Server and add "insert return" channels to the available outputs of the server. One return channel for each input channel?

So the audio input plugin inserted into a DAWs channel strip works like a "real" insert?

Posted on Sun, Nov 20 2011 11:01
by Animus
Joined on Fri, Sep 25 2009, Posts 146

Yeah I already mentioned this over at Gearslutz.  I was scratching my head for awhile.  Better than nothing I suppose.  I guess there must be some technical limitations implementing total integration as an insert.

Posted on Sun, Nov 20 2011 11:16
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

VE Pro doesn't work like that, and has never worked like that. You have to understand the routing, and then use that knowledge to decide which plugs work well this way, and which don't. For example an EQ wouldn't make any sense at all, but a reverb might.

If you post what plugs you are trying to use, maybe I can give some advice on the best way to achieve your goal.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Sun, Nov 20 2011 12:20
by TabSel
Joined on Thu, Jun 30 2011, Posts 96
Any Plugin...

I am quite new to VE Pro. I bought v4 in order to instantly upgrade to v5. It currently is the only DAW independant solution to spread the instrument load across multiple CPUs and gather everything in ONE DAW project file. Instruments are instantiated in ve pro only, running on any CPU, and integrated into any DAW via the ve pro instrument plugin. With v5 I thought I'll be able to extend the processing to effects: instantiate a ve pro insert plugin and run the channel strip on any CPU... Like the freeware "wormhole", but again, gathered in ONE DAW project file...

I use Cubase, Sonar and Reaper. I want to have my Gear managed by preserved VE Pro servers, instruments and fx, channel strips, DAW independant.

It is possible, but it makes things cluttered and nearly unmanageable without insert returns...
Posted on Sun, Nov 20 2011 12:53
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

I think you're going to have to re-think then. To use VE Pro instead of a regular inset on an audio tracks is not a particularly good idea. Using it where you would normally use sends is, providing that you send to a group track and then use the VE Pro Insert there. Yes, you get an extra track (the return from VE Pro), but it is only one extra track. I don't think that there is a solution for working the way that you want to.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Sun, Nov 20 2011 14:15
by TabSel
Joined on Thu, Jun 30 2011, Posts 96
I'll try using wormhole, even though I had not needed to update to v5. Wormhole is x32, too, need to have it jbridged... I really have hoped for VE pro 5 supporting insert/returns in order to be able to spread the load across CPUs of different platforms and architectures, finally getting rid of bridging and daw dependencies, and having one "physical" project file for one logical project...

Posted on Sun, Nov 20 2011 20:26
by JT3_Jon
Joined on Fri, Jun 04 2004, Palmdale CA (1 hour north of LA), Posts 469
DG wrote:

VE Pro doesn't work like that, and has never worked like that. You have to understand the routing, and then use that knowledge to decide which plugs work well this way, and which don't. For example an EQ wouldn't make any sense at all, but a reverb might.

If you post what plugs you are trying to use, maybe I can give some advice on the best way to achieve your goal.

DG

I understand VE Pro doesn't currently work this way, thus I explained this is a feature request; and to me a vital one for work flow purposes as explained in my original post. I congratulate VSL on getting VE Pro to even work in the first place, however, if we could get the Audio Input to work exactly like Logic's own I/O plugin, in which audio is sent out of the plugin to external gear and then back into the plugin on the same input plugin, this new feature would be KILLER and would become increadibly more useful! You said it yourself DG, using the current method for insert plugins like EQ doesn't make sense, and instead use VE pro for more "aux send" effects like reverb, delay, etc. but EVERY plugin would "make sense" if VE Pro's audio input was able to output its audio back into the channel strip instead of needing a new Aux. 

I hope VSL thinks about it and figures out how to do it. If its possible for Logic to do it with their own I/O plugin, I hope that VSL can figure out a way to do the same. 

Epic Prog rock music using VSL samples - http://www.aeonsatori.com

System specs: Mac Pro 5,1 3.33GHz 12 core 48GB RAM
OS 10.11.6 Cubase 8.5 Vienna Ensemble Pro 6.0.27022(64-bit)

PC: Core i7-2600 32GB Ram, Windows 8, Vienna Ensemble Pro 6.0.17011(64-bit)
Posted on Sun, Nov 20 2011 23:30
by Animus
Joined on Fri, Sep 25 2009, Posts 146

I totally agree.  Right now it's totally inflexible and useful for only certain ways of working.  I hope eventually they will add the option of total integration in the insert.  Oh, and also mono outputs.   :-)  And while I am whinging, I hate this forum software.  hehe

JT3_Jon wrote:
DG wrote:

VE Pro doesn't work like that, and has never worked like that. You have to understand the routing, and then use that knowledge to decide which plugs work well this way, and which don't. For example an EQ wouldn't make any sense at all, but a reverb might.

If you post what plugs you are trying to use, maybe I can give some advice on the best way to achieve your goal.

DG

I understand VE Pro doesn't currently work this way, thus I explained this is a feature request; and to me a vital one for work flow purposes as explained in my original post. I congratulate VSL on getting VE Pro to even work in the first place, however, if we could get the Audio Input to work exactly like Logic's own I/O plugin, in which audio is sent out of the plugin to external gear and then back into the plugin on the same input plugin, this new feature would be KILLER and would become increadibly more useful! You said it yourself DG, using the current method for insert plugins like EQ doesn't make sense, and instead use VE pro for more "aux send" effects like reverb, delay, etc. but EVERY plugin would "make sense" if VE Pro's audio input was able to output its audio back into the channel strip instead of needing a new Aux. 

I hope VSL thinks about it and figures out how to do it. If its possible for Logic to do it with their own I/O plugin, I hope that VSL can figure out a way to do the same. 

Posted on Mon, Nov 21 2011 00:35
by Antonio Escobar
Joined on Sun, Sep 12 2010, Madrid, Posts 17
Totally agree: having the option of re-route is ok, but, for me, the way it's implemented is a deal breaker. Audio input could be awesome if worked as expect: audio track insert and two ways audio processing.
Posted on Mon, Nov 21 2011 11:46
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

 OK, I've been thinking about this and obviously if it is possible to to the route in and out thing, then that might work well for some people. however, there is guarantee that this is even possible, never mind whether or not it would work well enough to be usable. Therefore i think it would be useful to get some ideas of how best to use the current implementation.

I can think of a couple of instances where there would be a fair number of extra tracks needed, but for the most part I think that we just need to think it out a little more clearly.

For example, imagine that I have 10 audio tracks with inserts on them. In theory that means using VE Pro would give me 10 extra tracks, but are all those tracks necessary? Where would those audio tracks have been routed to, if VE pro wasn't in use? If they were going to a group track, then there is no reason why they can't be bussed together in VE Pro and then use the audio return (VSTi Output, AUX) as the group track. This then requires no extra tracks; just a VSTi Output, rather than a Group track.

It would be good if some users who feel that the current system can't be workable could post specific examples, because I'm convinced that in many cases it is actually not a problem.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Mon, Nov 21 2011 12:02
by evan_1347
Joined on Fri, Feb 14 2003, Posts 12

I have a problem to assign more than 1 Audio input.  I thought I could use an VE Pro server instance as a Reverb FX host and 1 Audio Input is fine but as soon as I assign the second audio input the "reverbs" distorts. Tried all buffers. Both on local host Mac Pro 6 core and network PC Q6600 HP.

Running Pro Tools HD10 with 256 samples buffer - no go

also

Logic 9.1.5 - no go

Posted on Mon, Nov 21 2011 12:26
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

 Are you using a different Audio Input channel number for each Insert? You can bus them to the Reverb in VE Pro.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Mon, Nov 21 2011 14:43
by evan_1347
Joined on Fri, Feb 14 2003, Posts 12

Yes, I am using different stereo pairs. I setting up a send and bus in pro Tools and insert the Audio input plugin assign to 1-2.

In VE Pro server I set up a channel input with channel 1-2 and insert a reverb on that channel, routing  to VE master output.

Everything sounds good.

Now I put up another send and bus in Pro tools and choose 3-4 for the audio input plugin. Still fine but when clicking assign, now the mess begins.

The same but even worse when using Logic 9.1.5.

Posted on Mon, Nov 21 2011 15:01
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

OK, what happens if you create a Bus in VEP, put your insert on that and route audio inputs 1/2 and 3/4 to this bus?

Edit: I've just tried it in Nuendo, and there is no problem. I can't try Pro Tools ATM because I'm working.....! It does sound like you've got a routing problem somewhere though.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Mon, Nov 21 2011 15:20
by evan_1347
Joined on Fri, Feb 14 2003, Posts 12

No change unfortunately.

Is it only me with this problem ? 

Posted on Mon, Nov 21 2011 15:45
by assagai
Joined on Mon, Aug 30 2010, Posts 17
Working fine for me - cubase + logic 9, os 10.6.8
Posted on Mon, Nov 21 2011 15:54
by evan_1347
Joined on Fri, Feb 14 2003, Posts 12

Ok, the solution was to hit PLAY...I was trying out everything with the playback stopped...

As soon as I hit PLAY everything turned to normal. WHOHAA cool feature!

Posted on Mon, Nov 21 2011 16:07
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
evan_1347 wrote:

Ok, the solution was to hit PLAY...I was trying out everything with the playback stopped...

As soon as I hit PLAY everything turned to normal. WHOHAA cool feature!

 

Glad it's sorted out. As a matter of interest how could you hear it being a mess if you didn't hit play? what were you doing instead? It would be useful to know, in case others have the same problem.  Thanks.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Mon, Nov 21 2011 16:16
by evan_1347
Joined on Fri, Feb 14 2003, Posts 12

Well I was playing live from my MIDI Keyboard... :D
Putting up two VI´s with different sends and switching back and forth between the two tracks...with the DAW playback stopped...As a matter of fact I have had this problem before with VEP when just jamming around...it is like VEP needs to have s slight push on the playback button sometimes to get all buffers and latencies right... 

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