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How VSL treat their customers!
Last post Wed, Jul 04 2012 by Cyril Blanc, 73 replies.
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Posted on Fri, Jan 06 2012 13:30
by hose
Joined on Fri, Nov 09 2007, Posts 153
Christian Marcussen wrote:

Well I love VSL. But I too would be furious if I had to go through all the above and if I understand correctly - pay €20 per licence. Furious. 

Agreed! I have around 20 full library collections, several download instruments and other Vienna software, all on one key. (Because everything runs through MIR). Sometimes I have to take the dongle out, for mulitple reasons. I can't even imagine having issues like the ones mentioned above. Apart from the cost, I use VSL for work which I am bound with very tight deadlines. I simply CANNOT afford to fail on delivering to my clients. Infact one of the reasons I love VSL, is because the software is rock solid! When thinking about this, I think Syncrosoft and every other similar company should consider building military grade dongles made of other material than plastic. And also having the ability to pull-in the dongle interface plug, like some USB pen drives available on the market. As much as this might sound a bit over the top, after considering the amount of money spent on software licences and how much time, money and hassle it takes to bring them back, I guess it all starts to make sense.

Posted on Fri, Jan 06 2012 13:44
by dagmarpiano
Joined on Thu, Feb 14 2008, Merseyside, UK, Posts 152

There are 4 important questions that VSL need to answer:

1. Do you charge €20 per license for EVERY replacement code? Including individual instrument downloads? And therefore people might be paying over €1,000 if their USB key dies and is over 2 years old?

3. Could you please include specific warnings about the 2 year warranty, and the exact costs of replacement if a USB key gets over 2 years old, when people buy software, so that they are clearly warned?

4. Could you email customers when their USB key is getting close to 2 years old, as a reminder to buy a new one, with another warning about the costs in the event of a failure?

My point is that the very high costs in themselves are not the main problem. The main problem is that VSL have a 2 year warranty and an extremely expensive replacement program, WITHOUT TELLING ANYONE, and therefore customers have no ability to plan ahead and do the sensible thing - buy a new key every 2 years and regularly transfer their licenses across to avoid getting caught out.

Is this too much to ask?!

18-core iMac Pro | Vienna MIR | 16" M1 MacBook Pro

Trailer music publisher: https://gothic-storm.com
Posted on Fri, Jan 06 2012 16:08
by andyjh
Joined on Wed, Dec 15 2010, Posts 600

 Perhaps I can make a suggestion for VSL to consider.  They could introduce a kind of license protection scheme.

If a solution is to buy a new key every two years at €24 (€12 per year), then maybe a system could be introduced that allows users to pay €10 per year to VSL to be part of the scheme that would replace any lost licenses and key free of all costs to the user (faulty key only - would have to exclude lost/stolen keys).

If VSL had a thousand users take this up, that would give them a fund of €10,000.  Assuming the keys don't fail that often, this may or may not be enough funds,  so if this principle is good, VSL would know how many faulty keys they see each year, and would know what fund they would need to cover this. 

Think of it more, as all the users getting together to contribute towards each others license replacements.

I would be would be quite happy to pay €10 per year for this security, although VSL are the only people that could come up with a workable figure.    

Posted on Sat, Jan 07 2012 08:56
by marcotronic
Joined on Mon, Mar 07 2011, Germany, Posts 39
andyjh wrote:

 Perhaps I can make a suggestion for VSL to consider.  They could introduce a kind of license protection scheme.

If a solution is to buy a new key every two years at €24 (€12 per year), then maybe a system could be introduced that allows users to pay €10 per year to VSL to be part of the scheme that would replace any lost licenses and key free of all costs to the user (faulty key only - would have to exclude lost/stolen keys).

If VSL had a thousand users take this up, that would give them a fund of €10,000.  Assuming the keys don't fail that often, this may or may not be enough funds,  so if this principle is good, VSL would know how many faulty keys they see each year, and would know what fund they would need to cover this. 

Think of it more, as all the users getting together to contribute towards each others license replacements.

I would be would be quite happy to pay €10 per year for this security, although VSL are the only people that could come up with a workable figure.    

I think this is a great idea! I would happily spend 10 or 20 EUR per year for such kind of insurance/protection! I wouldn't be able to afford any of the above mentioned handling fees for all of my Vienna licenses if my key gets broken/damaged. I really wasn't aware of that danger and it makes me re-think any further investments in VSL stuff, too - so your suggestion is really good!

So here's my voice, too: Vienna - please consider such kind of insurance fee!

Marco

Marco Neumann - www.marcotronic.com
Posted on Sat, Jan 07 2012 10:35
by hose
Joined on Fri, Nov 09 2007, Posts 153

I also like this license scheme idea. As I said previously, something so prestigous requires more protection. I still recomend that elicencer build stronger, more heavy duty dongles. A couple weeks ago, while I was taking my license key from my MIR machine to another pc to register more licences, the key accidentally fell off my hand. It ended up in 3 pieces. I was able to assemble it and luckily, it worked just fine. It could have been worse. While I fully agree with a license scheme, just in case of theft or any other unpleasant reason, I prefer not to get into any hassle in the first place. Also we must not forget that having a license scheme or not, can take a considerable amount of time, in order to get everything back to its place.  I mean, although one can take medicine when being sick, its always better to avoid getting sick in the first place, when you can :-)

Posted on Sat, Jan 07 2012 11:22
by edwinsykes
Joined on Thu, May 11 2006, Posts 22

I think this is a brilliant idea. I would definitely be happy to pay this insurance. I reacently got a new key which I'm having delieverd soon. My old key is working fine but it's as old as late 2007. If I had to get it repaired or replaced it would cost me a lot of money. 

Posted on Mon, Jan 09 2012 15:48
by dagmarpiano
Joined on Thu, Feb 14 2008, Merseyside, UK, Posts 152

No response from VSL yet about whether they will improve their warnings or not.

Hello VSL!  Are you there?!

Maybe they just don't know how to say: "Steinberg charge us less than €20 per activation - we just like to add a little cut for ourselves", in a way that won't upset their customers.  Well, so fine, VSL have their hands in the Handling Fee drawer, so what?  The important thing is that they try harder to warn customers about the MASSIVE costs they might face if a Key is older than 2 years and it dies.

18-core iMac Pro | Vienna MIR | 16" M1 MacBook Pro

Trailer music publisher: https://gothic-storm.com
Posted on Fri, Jan 20 2012 21:49
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Posts 499

dagmarpiano,

The point about Steinberg not having to do as much in order to solve a license issue may be entirely valid. Me personally, I've had a great experience with VSL support- not license issues... but better than any other company (including a poor experience with steinberg once). I use Cubase and love it, I have no major quams with Steinberg either. But where I've had a poor experience with them before, and nothing but amazing support from VSL... I wonder whether your experience with Steinberg may have had more to do with them not having to lift a finger to solve a license issue.

Anyway, the real reason I decided to post here was your comment about the cloud. I'll never accept things in the cloud. Cloud means I have no control. Companies can charge fees, subscriptions for use, I'd have to be online in order to work, and all my files would be less secure than they are now. By all means, if you want less hassle and are willing to sacrifice having choices that's your option. But for me, that's an absolute no. Ick!

-Sean

Tags: license
Posted on Sat, Jan 21 2012 06:54
by steff3
Joined on Thu, Nov 13 2003, Posts 268

hmmm, cloud was me as well ...( more as an example that the connection of pieces of plastic junk seems like of a different epoc of IT engineering)

having no control and getting charged - that is exactly the situation with the current key as well. additinally it seems that VSL has not really too much control either. one has to pay money for a piece of plastc crap (the key) that works on a mediocre protocol (USB), and then has to worry that it does not break. it slows down and for some has even worse other ways it unpleasantly affects user experience. and for all that VSL and each customer pays a lot of money.

if that makes you feel being in control and not getting charged -good for you. some might feel differently.

mileage varies of course,

best

Posted on Sat, Jan 21 2012 18:27
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Posts 499
steff3 wrote:
having no control and getting charged - that is exactly the situation with the current key as well.

No dongle and an open sample format would be complete 100% control. A dongle means less control and a price, I agree. But it isn't "no control" and it isn't the exact same situation. I can control which hard drives I put things on, I can control the hardware, I can use my samples even if my internet connection is our or some company server is down. Cloud would equate to having literally no degree of control whatsoever. Companies charge subscriptions for a lot of cloud services and that future is also very uncertain. That isn't the same as paying a fee for a dongle which works with other software I use. I'm not advocating for using hardware licensing. I'm only saying that it beats cloud in my opinion. It's unreasonable to say there is no difference in potential control and pricing between cloud and the current setup we all use.

steff3 wrote:
if that makes you feel being in control and not getting charged -good for you. some might feel differently.

Again, I'm not saying USB licensers are the best choice. Personally, I'd rather there be no issues regarding licensing whatsoever. If I could have things my way I'd be running VSL on Ubuntu Linux and all my samples from all libraries in VI Pro 2.0 in some kind of open format. Either way, I think my argument deserved accurate representation and credibility so I posted this reply- but in reality I don't think we need another lengthy USB dongle debate. To date, I believe the previous dongle debate on here is still the longest thread.

The primary point I felt was worth addressing here is that VSL may not have much choice in how they address customer service on license related issues, because of the use of a dongle. If a larger percentage of VSL users experienced nothing but problems with licensing, then VSL would likely change methods. But while this system works for most people in a way that protects VSL's rights and our own, I think it's safe to say that the system isn't completely arbitrary and that the quality of VSL Support remains untainted here. I'd rather judge a company based on something that is entirely their responsibility and not shared with others. I think that's a fair and reasonable opinion regarding both VSL support and for any other company.

-Sean

Posted on Tue, Jan 24 2012 14:49
by Vagn Luv
Joined on Sun, Apr 02 2006, Copenhagen, DK, Posts 271

I have to say this whole is issue is VERY worrisome to me as well. I have bought lots of VSL products through the years and would have my wallet fried if the dongle broke down and I had to pay these remarkably high fees per license. Just piling all the additional cost and hassle of protection schemes on top of us paying and legit users leaves one with a bitter taste in the mouth.

Reminds me of Waves' insanely unpopular WUP scheme of yesteryear, which they changed once custormers figured out what a moneyscheme it was and enraged customers hit every music forum around with cries of boycoting. Speaking of Waves, they will be changing their protection methods to cloud and/or personal USB stick and will be getting rid of the iLok, so someone has already started smelling the coffee. Punishing paying customers with expensive and user-unfriendly copyprotection schemes will bring diminishing returns in the face of quickly growing competition on the market. The alternatives are growing fast these days.

Pro Tools 9.0.6 HD2, 3x192

Windows 7 64bit Ultimate (with SP1)

PC, Asus P6T Delux v2 MoBo, i7 920 D0 @ 3.8 stable, 24GB RAM, GeForce 285 using 285.38 driver, Intel X25-M G2 120GB SSD sytem drive, Intel SSD and Raptor HDDs for sample streaming.
Posted on Tue, Jan 24 2012 14:57
by dagmarpiano
Joined on Thu, Feb 14 2008, Merseyside, UK, Posts 152

Personally I don't find their actual policy that bad, because if your dongle is less than 2 years old you pay nothing.

The BIG problem for me is that they don't make this policy clear anywhere and therefore people can get caught out. Just buy a new dongle every 2 years, and consider it to be fairly cheap insurance. You can use your spares in an emergency - they will give you demo licenses until it is properly inspected and replaced.

18-core iMac Pro | Vienna MIR | 16" M1 MacBook Pro

Trailer music publisher: https://gothic-storm.com
Posted on Tue, Jan 24 2012 15:35
by Vagn Luv
Joined on Sun, Apr 02 2006, Copenhagen, DK, Posts 271

It surely is a huge farkup from VSL's side that such potentially high fees can go without any type of warning from their side. My point was, though, that it's bad strategy to burden your customers with high fees and the nuisance of replacing their dongles every two years (I mean, wttf?) because 1. will make your product look weaker in the face of mounting competition, and 2. make crackable alternatives all the more tempting, thus worsening the situation even further for us legit customers.

If we start to find the dongle switch every two years acceptable, then in my view we have become too complacent.

Pro Tools 9.0.6 HD2, 3x192

Windows 7 64bit Ultimate (with SP1)

PC, Asus P6T Delux v2 MoBo, i7 920 D0 @ 3.8 stable, 24GB RAM, GeForce 285 using 285.38 driver, Intel X25-M G2 120GB SSD sytem drive, Intel SSD and Raptor HDDs for sample streaming.
Posted on Wed, Jan 25 2012 07:48
by Christian Marcussen
Joined on Mon, Nov 10 2003, Posts 1508

Agreed Vagn

I like that you guys are thinking of possible solutions, insurances etc... But I'm in a different camp. A customer of something as precious and expenssive as VSL (and who is in effect "renting" the samples) should never pay more than the absolute minimum possible, if anything at all. 

I have spent over $10.000 on VSL stuff and I love it. But I want premium treatment (which includes something as trivial as reponding to this thread ;))

Posted on Wed, Jan 25 2012 08:53
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2723

I have sent a mail to support : NO ANSWER  !

MacBook Pro 2019 16" + 2 x Odisseey G9 49" Big Sur

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd

Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Big Band Orchestra series, Many Synchronised libs
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra 2, Art Conductor, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

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Posted on Wed, Jan 25 2012 10:23
by ToTeMusik
Joined on Sat, Jan 02 2010, Posts 33

And I think we never will.

A few days ago, I tryed to get there focus on this problem, but as I expected: NO ANSWER!

http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/p/31045/198094.aspx#198094

And this is, what makes me angry!

Ignoring us, there customers! No reaction, no offical comments, but still reading every post we are typing.

I think it´s there guideline, but with this behaivior there destroying the trust in there company!

So, I´m only a small user of VSL products at the moment (~2000 €).
At the moment I´ve stopped buying. Sorry about that, because there is much I would like to have.

regards

Torsten

Posted on Wed, Jan 25 2012 10:27
by dagmarpiano
Joined on Thu, Feb 14 2008, Merseyside, UK, Posts 152

Being an optimist, I think a reason for their silence is that this issue has forced them to think about a different strategy, and they're now remaining silent until they've made a decision and are ready to implement it.

I'm right aren't I Paul? ;-)

Dan

18-core iMac Pro | Vienna MIR | 16" M1 MacBook Pro

Trailer music publisher: https://gothic-storm.com
Posted on Wed, Jan 25 2012 12:14
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2723

I

dagmarpiano wrote:

Being an optimist, I think a reason for their silence is that this issue has forced them to think about a different strategy, and they're now remaining silent until they've made a decision and are ready to implement it.

I'm right aren't I Paul? ;-)

Dan

They could at least answer, "we are working  on it "

Just by politeness !


MacBook Pro 2019 16" + 2 x Odisseey G9 49" Big Sur

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd

Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Big Band Orchestra series, Many Synchronised libs
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra 2, Art Conductor, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Wed, Jan 25 2012 14:03
by musos
Joined on Sun, Dec 08 2002, Johannesburg, South Africa, Posts 916
Cyril wrote:

They could at least answer, "we are working  on it "

Just by politeness !

I fully agree.

Over many years with VSL, I have experienced only the best of service from them. It's very seldom that so many staff members, including the CEO, will ever respond so often on user forums (sometimes never).

The fact that Herb himself, plus several others that we know so well, are so regular here is amazing - and very helpful to customers.

The lack of any response about this whole VSL key/licence issue is rather disturbing. I hope for some kind of official statement soon.

Posted on Wed, Jan 25 2012 19:36
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Posts 499

Respectfully, I disagree with the lot of you. I have pretty strong opinions about nearly everything. So please, don't misunderstand my strong will as being disrespectful of your own opinions. I just think you're all wrong. Big Smile

I agree that dongles have their issues. I wouldn't discredit VSL for using them as nearly the entire industry does or is moving that direction. But foremost I believe that I have the right to protect my property. If any of you believe in the same principle, then I fail to see the necessity of this thread. In a perfect world dongles wouldn't exist- but neither would theft. If you have issues, email VSL and they respond. If something other than personal assistance, then this thread only seems to serve the purpose of VSL bashing, or at least public outcry to convince them to change their mind. In any case, I don't expect VSL to reply nor do I think any less of them for not replying.

They have a right to protect their financial security and the hard work they've put into this library. I have no business telling them about their policies. If you don't like dongles (again, what most the industry uses) then make your own private sample library. In the meantime I'm going to get back to work composing (aka, doing something productive) Wink

-Sean

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