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VE Pro audio muting when switching tracks in Cubase Pro 8
Last post Wed, Jul 05 2017 by esencia, 112 replies.
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Posted on Sat, Dec 06 2014 09:51
by noiseboyuk
Joined on Tue, Nov 17 2009, Posts 83

SYSTEM

Win 7 64 bit SP1 Aero on, i7 4930, RME Babyface, 64gb RAM, Cubase 8.0.0 64 bit, VEP 5.3.13407

PROBLEM 

VE Pro tracks audio muting when switching between channels in Cubase if asioguard is set to normal or high.

STEPS TO REPRODUCE

1. In Device Settings, enable asioguard, set to nornal or high.

2. Open VE Pro server and create two instances. Insert VIs on first channel of each (I'm using Kontakt 5 and Play for a test, but think the VIs used are irrelevant).

3. Create two VEP rack instruments, and connect to the two VEP instances.

4. Switch between the two VEP tracks in the Cubase project window (or switch monitor enabling between them)

5. Result is that the audio output mutes as they are switched.

Note 1 - length of time that the mute occurs varies according to the general complexity of project, whether or not playing back at the same time, and the asioguard setting. I've experienced up to approx 3 seconds.

Note 2 - problem does not exist when asioguard is set to low. Audio is uninterrupted.

Note 3 - had a report of identical symptoms on nMP 2013, 6 core 32GB ram OS X 10.9

Win 7 Pro 64 bit, i7 4930, RME Babyface, 64gb RAM, Cubase Pro 8, PT12 HD, VE Pro 5
Posted on Sat, Dec 06 2014 10:39
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 12494

Hi, 

 Asioguard is the first thing to switch off in Cubase 7.5 as well... Not much we can do there, I´m afraid. 

 Best,
Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Sat, Dec 06 2014 11:25
by noiseboyuk
Joined on Tue, Nov 17 2009, Posts 83

Hi Paul, as you may well be aware asioguard 2 is rewritten in Cubase Pro 8 from the old one in 7.5.  Pretty much no-one used it in 7.5, it usually caused more problems than it solved.

The situation is very differernt in Pro 8, however.  The vast majority of people are seeing significant performance gains with it.  Further, I concur with others that performance without asiguard 2 switched on actually is slightly worse, so that's all the more reason why asioguard 2 ON will become the norm now, very much not the case with asioguard 1.  I can pretty much guarantee you'll soon get a flood of issues on this as a result - Cubase is the DAW of choice for a very large number of professional composers, a large number of whom use VEP.

The fact that it works cleanly for me at the lower setting but very much not at normal or high suggests that there's an issue somewhere between the new engine and VEP which is able to be addressed - respectfully I'd ask that this is investigated a priority (though of course you may determine the issue is at Steinberg's end - I've submitted the issue report with them also)

One final thing - I just heard a report that someone is running ok with VEP 5.1.12331, though I need to confirm what their asioguard status is.

Win 7 Pro 64 bit, i7 4930, RME Babyface, 64gb RAM, Cubase Pro 8, PT12 HD, VE Pro 5
Posted on Sat, Dec 06 2014 11:27
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 12494

Hi, 

Thanks for pointing that out. Busy times here right now, but we will investigate!

Best,
Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Sat, Dec 06 2014 12:19
by noiseboyuk
Joined on Tue, Nov 17 2009, Posts 83

Much appreciated, thanks Paul.  Got our little pro composer community doing some testing on different rigs / setups, I'll pass on anything useful we find here.

Win 7 Pro 64 bit, i7 4930, RME Babyface, 64gb RAM, Cubase Pro 8, PT12 HD, VE Pro 5
Posted on Sat, Dec 06 2014 13:43
by Jurgen Beck
Joined on Sat, Jan 31 2009, Posts 68

Paul,

I side with noiseboyuk's assessment. I also have issues with Cubase Pro 8 running on a 12-core Mac Pro (2013) Mac OS X 10.9 with plenty of CPU power and am getting severe CPU spikes, audio dropouts, and distorted audio across the complete audio buss as long as ASIO-Guard is enabled. 

In my template I have 1,000+ MIDI tracks connecting to 50+ VE Pro Rack Instruments that connect to three workstations. I have not tried to run with the ASIO-Guard lowest setting, as the other two settings caused such severe issues that I simply just disabled it.

Just another viewpoint. :-)

Jurgen

Posted on Sun, Dec 07 2014 08:52
by G.R. Baumann
Joined on Mon, Mar 16 2009, NW-Atlantic Coast, Posts 102

I suggested that some chaps from the  ViControl composer forum share experiences here as well.  My impression is that this will be the most pressing issue for all VePro / CP8 users out there to be solved. 

 

Posted on Sun, Dec 07 2014 14:18
by MS
Joined on Wed, Feb 19 2003, Vienna, Austria, Posts 1760

The issue with audio dropping out when switching tracks, is probably due to latency for VEPro varies with buffer size. VEPro reports its new latency to Cubase, which has to recalculate its latency compensation - causing a drop-out in the audio stream. It appears that Cubase does this instantly, while a latency change reported to for instance Logic Pro, will only take effect from the next stop/play cycle - which sounds more reasonable to me.

We are looking into this behavior and will try to improve the situation asap.

 

 

--
Martin Saleteg
Software Developer
Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH
Posted on Sun, Dec 07 2014 18:28
by noiseboyuk
Joined on Tue, Nov 17 2009, Posts 83

Thanks Martin, really appreciate you guys looking into it so quickly.

Win 7 Pro 64 bit, i7 4930, RME Babyface, 64gb RAM, Cubase Pro 8, PT12 HD, VE Pro 5
Posted on Mon, Dec 08 2014 04:36
by G.R. Baumann
Joined on Mon, Mar 16 2009, NW-Atlantic Coast, Posts 102

Originally Posted by: MS Go to Quoted Post
The issue with audio dropping out when switching tracks, is probably due to latency for VEPro varies with buffer size. VEPro reports its new latency to Cubase, which has to recalculate its latency compensation - causing a drop-out in the audio stream. It appears that Cubase does this instantly, while a latency change reported to for instance Logic Pro, will only take effect from the next stop/play cycle - which sounds more reasonable to me.

We are looking into this behavior and will try to improve the situation asap.

You're not supposed to work on a Sunday Martin. 

Thanks for looking into it! - Best G.

Posted on Mon, Dec 08 2014 11:39
by johnstaf
Joined on Thu, Apr 21 2011, EI, Posts 216

This is mentioned in the Steinberg knowledge base. When you select a MIDI track and record enable it, the track is no longer in ASIO-Guard mode and the sound mutes as it switches over to real-time mode (and your normal latency.)

This seems to be in addition to what Martin describes.

Cubase (OS agnostic). Various VSL bits and pieces.

Posted on Mon, Dec 08 2014 15:05
by noiseboyuk
Joined on Tue, Nov 17 2009, Posts 83

Originally Posted by: johnstaf Go to Quoted Post

This is mentioned in the Steinberg knowledge base. When you select a MIDI track and record enable it, the track is no longer in ASIO-Guard mode and the sound mutes as it switches over to real-time mode (and your normal latency.)

This seems to be in addition to what Martin describes.

I can't see a specfic reference to that in the Cubase 8 issues - https://www.steinberg.net/nc/en/support/knowledgebase_new/show_details/kb_show/cubase-8-version-history-and-issues-and-solutions.html .  The sound neither mutes on other plugins or VE Pro under very favourible conditions.

I do have a feeling though that some of this might be Steinberg's end, you do tend to get a CPU spike when switching tracks in general (though that hasn't caused me any audio problems save for VE Pro).  Though I can't pretend to understand the inner workings of these things, if asioguard's delay is 90ms, I guess a dream scenario is being able to seamlessly switch from prefetched audio to live latency audio somehow 90ms afer a track is enabled.  Might not be possible though.

Win 7 Pro 64 bit, i7 4930, RME Babyface, 64gb RAM, Cubase Pro 8, PT12 HD, VE Pro 5
Posted on Thu, Dec 11 2014 11:10
by Steve Helstrip
Joined on Thu, Dec 17 2009, Posts 2

Originally Posted by: noiseboyuk Go to Quoted Post

Hi Paul, as you may well be aware asioguard 2 is rewritten in Cubase Pro 8 from the old one in 7.5.  Pretty much no-one used it in 7.5, it usually caused more problems than it solved.

The situation is very differernt in Pro 8, however.  The vast majority of people are seeing significant performance gains with it.  Further, I concur with others that performance without asiguard 2 switched on actually is slightly worse, so that's all the more reason why asioguard 2 ON will become the norm now, very much not the case with asioguard 1.  I can pretty much guarantee you'll soon get a flood of issues on this as a result - Cubase is the DAW of choice for a very large number of professional composers, a large number of whom use VEP.

The fact that it works cleanly for me at the lower setting but very much not at normal or high suggests that there's an issue somewhere between the new engine and VEP which is able to be addressed - respectfully I'd ask that this is investigated a priority (though of course you may determine the issue is at Steinberg's end - I've submitted the issue report with them also)

One final thing - I just heard a report that someone is running ok with VEP 5.1.12331, though I need to confirm what their asioguard status is.

+1 VEP needs to play nicely with ASIO guard. Please make it happen guys. 

Posted on Thu, Dec 11 2014 11:45
by woy
Joined on Sun, Oct 31 2004, Monaco, Posts 41

I am getting the same experience with Cubase 8. Have tried ASIO guard at Normal and Low but it only works when totally switched off and then the latency is very noticeable. This seems to be restricted to VE Pro and not when you just load VI Pro. It would be much appreciated if it could be investigated as although Cubase 7.5 works with ASIO Guard switched off, clearly many people will upgrade to 8.

regards, woy

Posted on Thu, Dec 11 2014 17:20
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

Originally Posted by: woy Go to Quoted Post

I am getting the same experience with Cubase 8. Have tried ASIO guard at Normal and Low but it only works when totally switched off and then the latency is very noticeable. This seems to be restricted to VE Pro and not when you just load VI Pro. It would be much appreciated if it could be investigated as although Cubase 7.5 works with ASIO Guard switched off, clearly many people will upgrade to 8.

regards, woy

It's related to all multi timbral instruments, and Steinberg recommends not to use them. Like that's going to happen....

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Thu, Dec 11 2014 23:13
by noiseboyuk
Joined on Tue, Nov 17 2009, Posts 83

Originally Posted by: DG Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: woy Go to Quoted Post

I am getting the same experience with Cubase 8. Have tried ASIO guard at Normal and Low but it only works when totally switched off and then the latency is very noticeable. This seems to be restricted to VE Pro and not when you just load VI Pro. It would be much appreciated if it could be investigated as although Cubase 7.5 works with ASIO Guard switched off, clearly many people will upgrade to 8.

regards, woy

It's related to all multi timbral instruments, and Steinberg recommends not to use them. Like that's going to happen....

DG

Ah. you're confused with asioguard 1:

Quote:
ASIO Guard 2 uses low latencies just on the tracks where latency matters while using a larger latency that saves performance for playback tracks. It now supports instrument tracks including multi-timbral and sample instruments that feature disk streaming. 

http://www.steinberg.net/en/products/cubase/whats_new.html

Win 7 Pro 64 bit, i7 4930, RME Babyface, 64gb RAM, Cubase Pro 8, PT12 HD, VE Pro 5
Posted on Fri, Dec 12 2014 00:30
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

Originally Posted by: noiseboyuk Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: DG Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: woy Go to Quoted Post

I am getting the same experience with Cubase 8. Have tried ASIO guard at Normal and Low but it only works when totally switched off and then the latency is very noticeable. This seems to be restricted to VE Pro and not when you just load VI Pro. It would be much appreciated if it could be investigated as although Cubase 7.5 works with ASIO Guard switched off, clearly many people will upgrade to 8.

regards, woy

It's related to all multi timbral instruments, and Steinberg recommends not to use them. Like that's going to happen....

DG

Ah. you're confused with asioguard 1:

Quote:
ASIO Guard 2 uses low latencies just on the tracks where latency matters while using a larger latency that saves performance for playback tracks. It now supports instrument tracks including multi-timbral and sample instruments that feature disk streaming. 

http://www.steinberg.net/en/products/cubase/whats_new.html

Actually, I think that you're just under informed:  ;>)

"In Cubase 8, multi-timbral VST Instruments are running in ASIO-Guard mode, too, which enhances performance additionally. However, multi-timbral VST Instruments will be switched to real-time usage as soon as a MIDI track is selected, that is assigned to the instrument. This may increase the real-time processing load significantly and cause drop outs. The performance drop when switching from ASIO-Guard mode to real-time can be softened by using multiple mono-timbral VST Instruments instead of a single multi-timbral VST Instrument."

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Fri, Dec 12 2014 01:03
by noiseboyuk
Joined on Tue, Nov 17 2009, Posts 83

A source for that quote would be useful DG - can't see it in the manual or Knowledgebase.

It is of course completely logical that multitimbral will increase the resource load.  The only relevant question is whether or not that's an issue in practice.  So for for me it has not been, using Kontakt, Omnisphere, Stylus on my i7 4930 @256 - all safely within limits.  Your asioguard vs soundcard settings will depend on a large number of factors.  But key is assessing what proportion of your overall CPU load you'll need to access live at any one time. If you have, say, 30 multitimbral instruments, logically you could reduce the realtime load to only 1/30th of what it was using asioguard (all other things being equal).  However, if you're on a modest system where you were struggling with only one multimbral instance, asioguard won't help you at all if you keep it that way - you'd be much better off spreading the load among monotimbral instruments as your quote suggests.  Most pro users will have powerful rigs and quality soundcards though, for them this advice should be fairly moot - hence perhaps why they are talking it up on the main what's new page on their website, specifically mentioning multi-timbral compatiblity.  Would be very strange to talk it up there and later say you shouldn't really use it.

Anyway, the only real issue so far for me has been VE Pro 5. Incidentally, I did hear that VE Pro 4 behaves much better with asioguard.  That would be interesting if so.

Win 7 Pro 64 bit, i7 4930, RME Babyface, 64gb RAM, Cubase Pro 8, PT12 HD, VE Pro 5
Posted on Fri, Dec 12 2014 03:22
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1726

https://www.steinberg.ne...n-cubase-and-nuendo.html">https://www.steinberg.net/nc/en/support/knowledgebase_new/show_details/kb_show/details-on-asio-guard-in-cubase-and-nuendo.html

MacBook Pro 16,1: 2.3 GHz 8-core i9
64GB 2667MHz DDR4
OSX 10.15.6
VE Pro 7, Cubase Pro 11.0.10
Posted on Fri, Dec 12 2014 08:52
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

Originally Posted by: noiseboyuk Go to Quoted Post

A source for that quote would be useful DG - can't see it in the manual or Knowledgebase.

It's in the Knowledgebase. Down the bottom under Cubase 8 ASIO Guard.

https://www.steinberg.net/nc/en/support/knowledgebase_new/show_details/kb_show/details-on-asio-guard-in-cubase-and-nuendo.html?tx_p77sbknowledgebase_pi1[keyword_search]=ASIO%20Guard

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
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