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Logic with VEP and Slaves Very Slow Connection
Last post Tue, Oct 06 2015 by snattack, 28 replies.
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Posted on Sun, Feb 15 2015 21:37
by Janicek
Joined on Wed, Aug 01 2012, Posts 57

I have the following setup:
 
Mac Pro Nehalem running Mountain Lion with Logic 9.1.8 using latest VEP as master
2 x i7 PCs running Windows 7 and VEP as slaves

Problem 1
If I close a project all instances in the servers on all machines get disconnected, opening a new project has to wait until all instances reconnect. Surely this is not how its supposed to work?
 
The whole point of VEP is to save time waiting for instruments common between projects to stay loaded?

Problem 2
There seems to be quite a delay when opening a project for the server plugins to load, even though the slaves are already loaded up.
 
I am using a dedicated ethernet port on the Mac and the internet connection is on a separate ethernet port. All machines have fixed IP addresses.

Posted on Mon, Feb 16 2015 11:32
by Janicek
Joined on Wed, Aug 01 2012, Posts 57

So after more reading I think problem 1 is normal behaviour?

I think my issue might be connection speed?

I am using a Gigabit router connected to the main Mac and 2 Slaves, using static IPs, internet is via the Mac's 2nd Ethernet port.

Because I am using Logic 9 I am not using the multiport extension or the Event plugin.

So is the following example too much for the system:

Slave 1 i7 with 64GB Ram and SSDs
8 Instances each with a VI with approx 10-12 slots

Slave 2 i7 with 32GB Ram and SSDs
16 Instances each with VI with approx 10-12 slots

The Master Mac also has a server but these seem to load instantly probably because they are not via an External network.

I have not timed it but it seems like the template takes about 5-10 minutes to load.

Posted on Mon, Feb 16 2015 15:02
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 13475

Hi, 

1) Yes, that´s usual behaviour, samples need to be unloaded before a new loading process starts. 

2) How many audio channels are you routing back to Logic? => The less, the faster the connection.

Also, which plug-ins are you loading in VE PRO, and how much RAM are you actually loading on each machine?

Best,
Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Mon, Feb 16 2015 15:36
by Janicek
Joined on Wed, Aug 01 2012, Posts 57

I have separate instances for Play and Kontakt based VIs.

However each one has the minimum possible Audio and Midi ports. I cannot see this is an issue.

As I am in Logic 9 I cannot use the multiport method, however I do not think 20 instances spread over 3 machines is that much.

Which is why I need to ascertain if the slow connection to each instance is something else?

Surely if one has to wait 5-10 minutes to load the connections between projects, that defeats a big part of the point of VEP?

I am using fixed IPs with a Gigabit switch dedicated to just the Master and Slaves, is there something else wrong? Or is this really how long connections should take?

Posted on Mon, Feb 16 2015 16:06
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 13475

Hello Janicek, 

Did you try to decouple the instances? This will keep the VE PRO Server Interface plug-in from requesting all data from the VE PRO instances it wants to connect to, which will speed up the process. 

This is what happens when you connect with a preserved instance:
- Plugin instantiation
- Connection to preserved VE PRO instance
- VE PRO Server Interface plug-in requests data from preserved instance

This is what happens when you connect with a preserved & decoupled instance:
- Plugin instantiation
- Connection to preserved and decoupled VE PRO instance

Best, 
Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Mon, Feb 16 2015 16:11
by Janicek
Joined on Wed, Aug 01 2012, Posts 57

Hello Paul,

I will try that.

Briefly what are the benefits of coupled instances? What gets saved in them vs uncoupled instances? I get that if you have uncoupled instances, you must save them on the slave.

But if I am using the same VEP metaframe across projects just hosting VIs do I need them coupled? What else would be saved with them given all automation and cc data will be in the DAW project?

Also are you saying my issues are not related at all to network issues?

Posted on Mon, Feb 16 2015 16:16
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 13475

Hello Janicek,

The content of decoupled instances are not saved with your song (NOTHING of the content).

You can also keep your instances decoupled while you are working, then couple them again, so that all data is saved with your song, if you like.

I´d say, read through the "Preserce/Decouple" chapter in the VE PRO manual and give it a quick try.

Best,
Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Mon, Feb 16 2015 17:47
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1942

Originally Posted by: Janicek Go to Quoted Post

But if I am using the same VEP metaframe across projects just hosting VIs do I need them coupled?

No. I don't know why anyone needs coupled other than they don't want to be bothered with separate saving.

Probably you will find that loading the frames decoupled takes a lot less time; to load and to save.

MacBookPro 18,3
Apple M1 Pro: 2.3 GHz 8-core i9

Mac OS 12.3.1
VE Pro 7.1298, Nuendo 11.0.41
Posted on Tue, Feb 17 2015 11:29
by Janicek
Joined on Wed, Aug 01 2012, Posts 57

Okay so I have tried all the following:

1. Decoupled instances - no change in speed of connection

2. Direct connection between Master and Slave eliminating Switch - no change in speed

3. Created a smaller template using just one slave with just 9 instances - no change in speed

All scenarios use 2 Audio In/Out and 16 Midi channels max on 1 port. No firewalls on.
I have checked connections are 1Gb/s and swapped cables, have tried booting slaves and loading first etc.

I am almost 100% sure when I first set this up it was much speedier to connect.

1. Is there a comprehensive guide somewhere on network settings?

2. Is there a bug in the latest version? Anyone else have the same problems?

I timed the full template and it takes 5 minutes to connect, even though all samples/instances are loaded.

Posted on Tue, Feb 17 2015 15:48
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1942

Well, unless these are tiny instances, no change in _loading_ of a metaframe alone vs the DAW host loading everything, coupled, will be very unusual.

 

Just to be sure we're on the same page, you are instantiating everything separately before you load Logic, yes?

If you are proceeding correctly, I have to wonder with this report if you are using dynamic IP. If so, manually establish IP; ie., use fixed' IP, as dynamic/changing all the time makes networking VE Pro a real problem.

MacBookPro 18,3
Apple M1 Pro: 2.3 GHz 8-core i9

Mac OS 12.3.1
VE Pro 7.1298, Nuendo 11.0.41
Posted on Tue, Feb 17 2015 15:51
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1942

Aha. I was unsure about the term 'speed of connection' believing you were talking about the time it took for Logic to load everything vs VE Pro itself to load everything. Taking time to connect, more than a moment, appears to indicate a network issue such as dynamic IP.

MacBookPro 18,3
Apple M1 Pro: 2.3 GHz 8-core i9

Mac OS 12.3.1
VE Pro 7.1298, Nuendo 11.0.41
Posted on Tue, Feb 17 2015 16:24
by Janicek
Joined on Wed, Aug 01 2012, Posts 57

I am using a fixed IP.

I am going to try these remedies to see what happens:

1. Try on-board LAN port on slave rather than the PCIE card I am using.

2. Repair master Mac permissions.

3. Try creating a new metaframe from scratch.

I hope one of these improves things.

Posted on Wed, Feb 18 2015 12:14
by Janicek
Joined on Wed, Aug 01 2012, Posts 57

Unfortunately tried all these 3 changes and no better.

Can someone confirm I have IPs correct:

Mac Master
IP 192.168.2.2
Mask 255.255.255.0
Router 192.168.2.1
DNS 192.168.2.1

Slave
IP 192.168.2.3
Mask 255.255.255.0
Router 192.168.2.1
DNS 192.168.2.1 (also tried 8.8.8.8 and 8.8.4.4)

I do not think the settings are the issue as connects okay (eventually).

I am going to try reinstalling Logic, deleting prefs and using my MacBook Pro as master to see if its the Mac or Logic.

I spoke to Jay Asher (EastWest support and general nice guy), and his template has 32gb of Play stuff on a slave PC and his loads in 30 seconds so I know there is an issue.

Posted on Wed, Feb 18 2015 15:10
by Ashermusic
Joined on Fri, Jan 02 2009, Posts 558

Originally Posted by: Janicek Go to Quoted Post

Unfortunately tried all these 3 changes and no better.

Can someone confirm I have IPs correct:

Mac Master
IP 192.168.2.2
Mask 255.255.255.0
Router 192.168.2.1
DNS 192.168.2.1

Slave
IP 192.168.2.3
Mask 255.255.255.0
Router 192.168.2.1
DNS 192.168.2.1 (also tried 8.8.8.8 and 8.8.4.4)

I do not think the settings are the issue as connects okay (eventually).

I am going to try reinstalling Logic, deleting prefs and using my MacBook Pro as master to see if its the Mac or Logic.

I spoke to Jay Asher (EastWest support and general nice guy), and his template has 32gb of Play stuff on a slave PC and his loads in 30 seconds so I know there is an issue.

Thanks for the kind words.

Just to be clear to others though: once my VE Pro m-frmaes on my slave PC with Play (takes 5-6 minutes) and on my Mac with Kontakt are loaded. my Logic Pro template (which also includes other softweare instruments loaded directly in it) opens and connects to the VE Pro m-frames and 25 seconds. All SSDS though.

Composer, Logic Pro Certified Trainer, author of "Jumpstart Logic Pro 10.6 " & "Scoring WIth Logic Pro"
www.jayasher.com

3.2 6-Core i7 Mac mini, 64 GB RAM. macOS 12.1
Posted on Wed, Feb 18 2015 22:20
by Air
Joined on Wed, Jan 22 2003, Vienna, Posts 294
Hi,

Which SSDs are you using? How many samples are you loading? How many GB do the samples need?
What Preload Buffersize are you using? Did you check the speed of your SSDs with a speedtool? If yes, what was the result for reading (MB/S).

Is your internetconnection on the second networkport in the same networkrange as your VEPRO network?

Regards
Bernd
Posted on Wed, Feb 18 2015 22:27
by Janicek
Joined on Wed, Aug 01 2012, Posts 57

Firstly yes all IPs are in same range, secondly all samples are on SATA3 SSDs.

However the problem is not sample or stream related. I have preloaded the metaframes on the slaves before starting Logic on the master.

The problem is the connection time between the VEP plugins and the slaves, it takes 5 minutes.

It was not always like this.

So far have tried:

1. Reinstalling VEP
2. Swapping Cables, with/without switch
3. Swapping LAN cards
4. Reinstalling LAN drivers
5. Blank template with new metaframe
6. Using my MacBook as master with fresh copy of Logic

Nothing seems to work.

Starting to wonder if latest VEP is not firendly to 10.8.5

Posted on Wed, Feb 18 2015 22:57
by Air
Joined on Wed, Jan 22 2003, Vienna, Posts 294
Can You try if the following changes something.

Use the following IPs for the VEPRO network:

Master 10.0.5.2
Slave 1 10.0.5.3
Slave 2 10.0.5.4

All with subnet 255.255.255.0

No gateway or router ans no DNS.
Does this make any difference.

Regards
Bernd
Posted on Thu, Feb 19 2015 14:25
by Janicek
Joined on Wed, Aug 01 2012, Posts 57

Thanks, I will try your suggestion.

Just to rule out corrupted files or sample player issues I loaded 4 blank instrument channels with empty VEP instances in a new metaframe. It took 3 minutes to connect!

So at least I know the issue is not connected to how many VIs, samples, plugin issues.

Posted on Thu, Feb 19 2015 15:28
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1942

Originally Posted by: Janicek Go to Quoted Post

 

However the problem is not sample or stream related. I have preloaded the metaframes on the slaves before starting Logic on the master.

The problem is the connection time between the VEP plugins and the slaves, it takes 5 minutes.

It was not always like this.

[...]

Nothing seems to work.

Starting to wonder if latest VEP is not firendly to 10.8.5

Ok, the thing I noticed was that reducing the size of the template did not change the time of connection.
That means there is some issue of the connection. I'm on 10.8.5. The amount of outputs enabled = the amount of time for the DAW project to fully load. "to fully load" means the amount of time to _connect_ to VE Pro essentially, excepting plugins loaded in the host [Cubase]. I think you said you are using one stereo out per instance. So your "9 instances" compare well enough to a typical load in my case. I'm looking at ... ok, right now I happen to have a metaframe up with 9 stereo outs that Cubase has to bring up. Let's see: took almost 20 seconds, most of which is the 9 outs.


The issue is not going to be down to VE Pro or 10.8.5 in all probability. EDIT: so yeah, you've ruled out what you're connecting to as the issue. It should be a network if not hardware issue, if this were me that's where I'd focus at this point I think.

MacBookPro 18,3
Apple M1 Pro: 2.3 GHz 8-core i9

Mac OS 12.3.1
VE Pro 7.1298, Nuendo 11.0.41
Posted on Thu, Feb 19 2015 15:47
by Janicek
Joined on Wed, Aug 01 2012, Posts 57

When you say 20 seconds, is that via a slave or via a server on your master Mac?

If from a slave would you mind giving me an example of your network settings for both machines?

I think its either hardware or configuration, however its the PC side I am not so confident about. I've done hardware tests and all seem okay, but I cannot be 100% its not hardware.

At least I know latest VEP isokay on 10.8.5.

I was considering updating to Mavericks, but now they have released Yosemite its nolonger available (should have downloaded it without installing!). I always like to installone back so I am sure drivers work.

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