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Logic 10.2.3 broke matrix switching by program change messages!?
Last post Mon, Jul 31 2017 by ddunn, 25 replies.
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Posted on Sun, Jun 19 2016 21:11
by Kai
Joined on Sun, Dec 29 2002, Graz, Austria, Posts 166

It seems that in the new Logic version (10.2.3) it is not possible anymore to switch VI matrices via program change messages triggered by an external master keyboard. Yet, program changes recorded in Logic’s sequences work fine. 

On Logic’s midi monitor I can see that the correct program change messages are received, but whenever they originate from outside Logic they don’t have any effect. It also doesn’t matter if I directly send program change messages on the keyboard or if send notes (which otherwise work fine) and transform them into program change events in the environment. To make it even more weird when I create the corresponding events directly in the environment (via environment faders or keyboards) they do switch matrices.

Did anyone else experience this problem? It would be great if someone could confirm that this is a bug, because then I can stop looking for a problem of my midi system and rather try to solve the problem how I can go back to a previous software version on the App Store ... if this is possible at all.

Posted on Tue, Jul 05 2016 08:55
by Kai
Joined on Sun, Dec 29 2002, Graz, Austria, Posts 166

Am I really the only one who uses VI/pro in Logic and switches matrices with program change events (after all this seems to be the only way to access presets with many dozens of matrices)? Logic 10.2.4 is out now and matrix switching via program change events still doesn’t work on my system. I went back to 10.2.2 using an old time machine backup and everything works fine there. Any feedback if this is only a problem with my install or indeed a bug in the new Logic versions would be highly appreciated.

Posted on Tue, Jul 05 2016 12:45
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2700

Hello

 

Didi you monitor the output of your keyboard in Logic ?

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Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
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Synth : many....
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Posted on Tue, Jul 05 2016 13:27
by mh-7635
Joined on Wed, Aug 04 2004, Posts 192

Hi Kai,

There is another way to switch matrices in a preset and that is via the VSL App. If you don't have an iPad, I reccomend you get one and try the app because it makes life soooo easy when it comes to key/matrice/articulation switching.

Best,

Mike.

Posted on Wed, Jul 06 2016 12:34
by Kai
Joined on Sun, Dec 29 2002, Graz, Austria, Posts 166

Hello Cyril,

thanks for your feedback. The program change messages indeed appear in Logic’s input monitor (in the Main Window), but somehow they don’t reach VI pro in the new Logic versions. I use exactly the same template in both cases, and it works fine in 10.2.2 but not in 10.2.3/4.

Do you use a recent Logic version and can you switch matrices without problems?

 

Hi Mike,

thanks for the tip. Yes, I use the iPad App and I really like it, but switching matrices is somewhat quicker with keys (which I transform into program change events in Logic’s environment).

Posted on Wed, Jul 06 2016 14:52
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2700

Hello Kai

Did you put the monitor object just before going to VSL object.

I use Bank and Program changes to switch articulations, I have not try with the latest version of Logic

MacBook Pro 2019 16" + 2 x Odisseey G9 49" Big Sur

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd

Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Big Band Orchestra series, Many Synchronised libs
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra 2, Art Conductor, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Thu, Jul 07 2016 12:42
by Kai
Joined on Sun, Dec 29 2002, Graz, Austria, Posts 166

Hi Cyril,

I usually use the standard environment cabling (physical-input -> sequencer-input) and if I insert a monitor in between I can see the incoming program change messages. To make sure that this is not a problem of my template, which involves  a lot of environment processing, scripts, …, I performed another test: I opened a new blank Logic song (both in the old and the new Logic versions), inserted a single VI pro instance  and sent program change messages. In both case I can see them in the Main Window and in the environment monitor but in the new version they don’t do anything in VI pro. I also tried cabling the VI pro directly as you suggested (physical input -> monitor -> audio instrument) - same result.

How do you use bank changes? Does VI support them?

Thanks again

Kai

Posted on Thu, Jul 07 2016 16:34
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2700

Example :

In your Bank you define the note to send select VI-20 01 BASIC (C2 to A#2)

and after you send the note to select the articulation C1 to A#1

MacBook Pro 2019 16" + 2 x Odisseey G9 49" Big Sur

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd

Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Big Band Orchestra series, Many Synchronised libs
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra 2, Art Conductor, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Thu, Jul 07 2016 17:27
by Kai
Joined on Sun, Dec 29 2002, Graz, Austria, Posts 166

I see. I guess then I do the same  (performing the necessary transformations in Logic's environment). I thought you were talking about actual bank change messages ...

 

So my problem really seems to be a bug in Logic and therefore it is probably a good idea not to update for the time being.

Posted on Fri, Jul 08 2016 00:35
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2700

I create a custom bank that contains the switching like this

Cyril Blanc attached the following image(s):
Screen Shot 2016-07-08 at 02.34.32.png (183kb) downloaded 15 time(s).

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MacBook Pro 2019 16" + 2 x Odisseey G9 49" Big Sur

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd

Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Big Band Orchestra series, Many Synchronised libs
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra 2, Art Conductor, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Fri, Jul 08 2016 08:49
by Kai
Joined on Sun, Dec 29 2002, Graz, Austria, Posts 166

Hello Cyril,

thanks for the screenshot. Interesting, I did not know that Logic offers custom bank selects for audio instruments. Although the idea seems to be the same we apparently have implemented it a bit differently (see screenshot).

Cheers

Kai

Kai attached the following image(s):
Screen Shot 2016-07-08 at 9.41.55 AM.jpg (164kb) downloaded 39 time(s).

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Posted on Fri, Jul 08 2016 22:12
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2700

The way you do it is very interesting, how do you buit this instrument.

I take levell II instruments that contains most of the articulations

I do not need to modify the instruments so all twickles done by VSL are conserved 

Look at the pictures

Cyril Blanc attached the following image(s):
Screen Shot 2016-07-09 at 00.05.50.png (155kb) downloaded 2 time(s).
Screen Shot 2016-07-09 at 00.07.15.png (173kb) downloaded 4 time(s).
Screen Shot 2016-07-09 at 00.07.31.png (155kb) downloaded 6 time(s).
Screen Shot 2016-07-09 at 00.07.44.png (153kb) downloaded 4 time(s).

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MacBook Pro 2019 16" + 2 x Odisseey G9 49" Big Sur

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd

Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Big Band Orchestra series, Many Synchronised libs
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra 2, Art Conductor, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Sat, Jul 09 2016 12:04
by Kai
Joined on Sun, Dec 29 2002, Graz, Austria, Posts 166

Now I am a bit confused: VSL level II presets/combi-matrices require note events for articulation switching.

 

I guess we are actually doing exactly the opposite . If I understand this correctly, you use program change messages that are then transformed into notes and mod wheel events and sent to VI, right? In contrast, I don’t directly send program change events from my master keyboard since it takes longer to type 2-3 numbers and an enter command. Instead I actually use keys to switch banks and articulations. These are then transformed in an environment macro into program change messages (articulations of the key-switch bank 1 -> program changes 1-12, bank2 -> 13-24, …) that are then sent to VI. The reason why I prefer to send program change messages to VI is that they don’t appear in the score, are chased by Logic and are the only way to quickly access really large presets with dozens of matrices in VI pro (in my case >100, mostly made from scratch).

 

If you do not really send program change messages to VI then you are lucky and won’t have any problems with the bug in the current Logic versions .

Posted on Sat, Jul 09 2016 15:34
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2700

I send two message the matrix number and the articulation number

example :

If the Matrix is D0 and the articulation is C1

I will select bank 3 and program 1 in the event edit

So there are no notes events in the score

The bank message will be define in the "custom bank" and the program number will be converted by C1 in the Environnement 

MacBook Pro 2019 16" + 2 x Odisseey G9 49" Big Sur

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd

Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Big Band Orchestra series, Many Synchronised libs
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra 2, Art Conductor, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Sat, Jul 09 2016 16:54
by Kai
Joined on Sun, Dec 29 2002, Graz, Austria, Posts 166

Ok, thanks for explaining. I think I finally understand what you do: instead of having an audio instrument track you use a midi track with a multi instrument (that does offer custom bank selects) and then you cable it in the environment, with some midi processing, to an audio instrument with the VI instantiated?

Anyway, since you do not send any program change events to VI you should be fine and not affected by the bug.

Posted on Sat, Jul 09 2016 17:09
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2700

you got it !

 

How did you make the instrument with the articulation selection that we can see in Kai attached the following image(s)

MacBook Pro 2019 16" + 2 x Odisseey G9 49" Big Sur

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd

Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Big Band Orchestra series, Many Synchronised libs
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra 2, Art Conductor, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Sun, Jul 10 2016 17:10
by Kai
Joined on Sun, Dec 29 2002, Graz, Austria, Posts 166

The smart controls panel in the picture is basically a monitor that gives me a dynamic directory of the banks and articulations in the library. I can’t memorize 100+ key/program change assignments and this way I have all necessary information right when I am about to select an articulation. It is realized via a script for the Midi-Scripter plug-in introduced in Logic X and the smart controls panel merely shows its control elements.

Under the hood, there is a little environment macro in between the Physical-Input and the Sequencer-Input that (among some other features) transforms the incoming key-switch events for bank and articulation selection into the proper program change events for the individual articulation matrices in VI pro and also sends control events to update the smart controls monitor shown in the picture. I.e. all the environment processing is done before the Sequencer-In and this way I can use ordinary audio instrument tracks. Moreover, I rely on Logic’s new automatic way of managing audio instruments, and load new instruments conveniently with Logic’s Library (Logic saves the entire channel strip including the smart controls panel and the midi-script required to control it). I.e. nothing has to be hard-wired in the environment and new audio instruments are automatically created and deleted as needed.

Posted on Wed, Jul 13 2016 10:46
by CkJazz
Joined on Fri, Oct 04 2013, Berlin, Posts 1

Same problem here! VSL support as well as Apple support couldn't give me satisfying answers yet, so I guess going back to 10.2.2 is the best option for now...

Posted on Wed, Jul 13 2016 20:20
by Kai
Joined on Sun, Dec 29 2002, Graz, Austria, Posts 166

Thanks so much for the feedback, Ck! 

After a month without a confirmation whether this is actually a bug or just a problem with my system (e.g. a corrupted settings file, …), this is an extremely helpful piece of information. I sent a bug report to Apple as well, but they write already in the online form that there won’t be any feedback. 

If you have a backup, going back to 10.2.2 is a good workaround.

Posted on Fri, Jul 29 2016 20:42
by A.G
Joined on Thu, Jul 31 2014, Posts 25

Originally Posted by: Kai Go to Quoted Post
It would be great if someone could confirm that this is a bug,

Yes, it is a bug definitely. Your description is well done Kai. As a long time program developer I have an explanation about that bug. Here it is:
The Logic Sequencer object shown in Click & Ports Environment layer looks like a single object. In fact that single object is a powerful Macro which contains tons of audio and MIDI routings packed into that Macro.
The routings are based on the old garage studio setup (Input, Mixer, Recorder). In the Program Change bug scenario it is obvious that the Program messages go to the Recorder but they are not routed to the Mixer (Instrument Channel Strip). The direct Input->Channel Strip or the Recorder Thru function is broken regarding the Program Change messages Software Instrument pass Thru.
You can make a simple test which shows that no Program Change comes to the Software Instrument Channel strip if the Program message is sent from the Logic outside world.
1. Insert a default MIDI FX Scripter plugin.
2. Open the Scripter editor and have a look at the Trace sector.
3. Send any Note event or Modulation CC1 - the Scripter Trace Monitor will show those messages. Send a Program Change on any MIDI Ch 1-16 - nothing!

After Logic 8 Apple implemented the Channel Strip Performance Change. Program Change messages sent on Ch.1 were blocked to the Software Instrument Channel strip. They were reserved for the Performance Chanel Strip change so we could use Ch.2-16. Now it seems that all Ch.1-16 are blocked regarding the Software Instrument Channel Strip. There is another direct routing using Environment cable with a Transformer which only pass Program Changes. However the Channel Strip 100% blocks that workaround. For now my diagnose is that it is Software Instrument Channel Strip Program Change blocking.

BTW. There is no problem for the AG Articulation Switching system regarding the new Program Change bug. The AG Articulation system can be controlled directly via the Logic Controller Assignments which highjacks the Logic Sequencer engine. The other aid is the new AG Remote Control Enviro tool which converts the direct Program Change Messages into invisible data which is passed secretly thru the Logic Sequencer and re-converted into Program Change again. AG Articulation Maps can control the VSL Instrument Matrix switching (Logic 10.2.3 & 10.2.4) without any problems including a Program Change Message, KS1 & KS2 for X/Y axis (assigned in the Articulation Map)  -  for Dimension Brass for example.  

Best,
AG Logic Articulation Toolkit (developer)

www.audiogrocery.com

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