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lost elicenser key and VSL will not respond to my emails
Last post Sat, Feb 18 2017 by djw, 42 replies.
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Posted on Fri, Oct 28 2016 16:10
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

Originally Posted by: jasensmith Go to Quoted Post
Why the other players in this game like Eastwest have more generous terms with these licensing companies I don't know that either. 

East West uses iLok, which has another system. However, you also can't sell EW products, so they are not as generous as VSL on that one. The other mentioned products use Kontakt, which doesn't use a dongle, but again you can't sell them.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
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Posted on Sat, Oct 29 2016 10:33
by fahl5
Joined on Fri, Feb 04 2005, Göttingen, Posts 956

VSL sell products of highest quality and worth to pay high prices for. So we did that already.

But....

Thinking what we have invested it seems to me pretty inapropriate, that VSL has not covered at all  the Question, how Licenses could be saved, when  dongles break or ar lost.

If Steinberg is able to keep Licenses restorable, (while their Products are much less expensive) than it should be able that VSL come to an  agreement with Steinberg or their eLicenser System to make the same service also available for VSL-Customers.

If wee compare with  the way Native-Instuments handle not only their own productlicening but at the same time the Licenses of douzens of other Products running on Kontakt, I can not imagine that there really should be no way to get the same options to restor VSL-Licenses as it is already possible for Steinberg-Licenses.

(BTW: My Steinberg Account even show my License of a Fable Sound Product which was running on a Halionplayer some years ago. So come on VSL: get in touch with Steinberg! Your customers pay enogh that they deserve a save liceningsystem.)

I think VSL defenitly has to do somthing in this question.

http://libraries.resampled.de/index.php
four parallel interpretations of ambitious classical scores with up to twelve different Libraries

http://beethoven.resampled.de
currently the first four Symphonies of L.v.Beethoven completly recorded with the finest available orchestra samplelibraries (BBCSO, SSO, STO)

http://klassik-resampled.de
Currently 4330 mp3 with more than a whole Week (=more than 8 Days /=nearly 200 hours) of sample based interpretations of complete Scores from 7 Centuries
Posted on Sat, Oct 29 2016 11:23
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1582

Originally Posted by: fahl5 Go to Quoted Post

Thinking what we have invested it seems to me pretty inapropriate, that VSL has not covered at all  the Question, how Licenses could be saved, when  dongles break or ar lost.

I don't think the problem is saving the licenses. The way I understand it is if you loose your dongle then whole new licenses have to be issued which is why it costs VSL money.  Maybe I'm wrong?

What's to stop me from telling Vienna that I lost my dongle, when I really didn't, and I need a new one with my licenses restored then turning around and selling that new one to somebody else and letting them download the software from my user area? 

Well, paying 50% of the cost of the licenses is a pretty big deterrent.

As for a dongle breaking, again, if it malfunctions due to no fault of your own and you're within that two year period then that's on Vienna for selling you a faulty dongle right?


"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Sat, Oct 29 2016 11:38
by ZeroZero
Joined on Sun, Apr 23 2006, Posts 73

Originally Posted by: jasensmith Go to Quoted Post

I don't think the problem is saving the licenses. The way I understand it is if you loose your dongle then whole new licenses have to be issued which is why it costs VSL money.  Maybe I'm wrong?

What's to stop me from telling Vienna that I lost my dongle, when I really didn't, and I need a new one with my licenses restored then turning around and selling that new one to somebody else and letting them download the software from my user area? 

Well, paying 50% of the cost of the licenses is a pretty big deterrent.

As for a dongle breaking, again, if it malfunctions due to no fault of your own and you're within that two year period then that's on Vienna for selling you a faulty dongle right?

 

VSL could use an in house system and then not get charged by Steinberg

VSL could make an arrangement with Steinberg to cover these issues

VSL could put in steps to verify the identity of the user when re-issueing licences (like other companies do) therefore ther is no need to levy a 50% detterent

 Legitimate customers that get offered this amazing half price  penalty offer may well just go and buy libraries from other companies instead - loosing VSL customer base. They will understandably be reluctant to buy further packages after being stung this way. NO other company has this sharp practice.

The two year thing for dongles is also wrong, wrong, wrong. 

Intel 17, 64 gig RAM Cubase 11
Posted on Sat, Oct 29 2016 14:59
by Simon Hanna
Joined on Sat, Mar 26 2011, Australia, Posts 30

How many of VSL's customer base are really that shady? I doubt most serious composers would want some random (or friend) to have access to their user area (passwords etc) and use their licences so that seems utterly ridiculous.

The worst part is, the more products you buy from VSL; the more loyal a customer you are, the more you have to lose if something goes wrong. How sad is that?

Posted on Sun, Oct 30 2016 01:51
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1582

Originally Posted by: ZeroZero Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: jasensmith Go to Quoted Post

I don't think the problem is saving the licenses. The way I understand it is if you loose your dongle then whole new licenses have to be issued which is why it costs VSL money.  Maybe I'm wrong?

What's to stop me from telling Vienna that I lost my dongle, when I really didn't, and I need a new one with my licenses restored then turning around and selling that new one to somebody else and letting them download the software from my user area? 

Well, paying 50% of the cost of the licenses is a pretty big deterrent.

As for a dongle breaking, again, if it malfunctions due to no fault of your own and you're within that two year period then that's on Vienna for selling you a faulty dongle right?

VSL could use an in house system and then not get charged by Steinberg

VSL could make an arrangement with Steinberg to cover these issues

VSL could put in steps to verify the identity of the user when re-issueing licences (like other companies do) therefore ther is no need to levy a 50% detterent

 Legitimate customers that get offered this amazing half price  penalty offer may well just go and buy libraries from other companies instead - loosing VSL customer base. They will understandably be reluctant to buy further packages after being stung this way. NO other company has this sharp practice.

The two year thing for dongles is also wrong, wrong, wrong. 

I think most of these ideas have already been proposed before (do a forum search if you're interested)  The last time, I actrually suggested Vienna use a cloud system where you just stream your ligitimately purchased samples and do away with the dongle all together.  Needless to say that went over like a clay pigeon.  However I hear Eastwest has a system like that.

Somebody else had also suggested that VSL get into the insurance business and offer users peace of mind for a nominal monthly fee.  And here's how that went over...  ROTFL.

I don't mean to sound insensitive ZeroZero I actually sympathize with you.  I mean I know I would be devestated if I lost my dongle but knowing what I know now I do everything in my power to the point of ridiculous to prevent that from happening. 


"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Sun, Oct 30 2016 02:05
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5722

"How many of VSL's customer base are really that shady? I doubt most serious composers would want some random (or friend) to have access to their user area (passwords etc) and use their licences so that seems utterly ridiculous." - simon hanna

Do you have any concept of how much thievery goes on with music and the internet - let alone samples?  It has destroyed the recorded music industry.  There is no industry now.  Anything on the internet is ripped off on a regular basis. 

I would like the hostile, adversarial posters of this, and many other similar threads, to do one thing - tell how they would deal with stolen/lost licenses.  In detail.  To rule out theft on a regular basis.  The fact is, there is no way to distinguish between someone who has lost - or had stolen - a dongle, and someone who just wants another license for free.  If your dongle is stolen - you are screwed.   It is the same thing as if you bought some stuff at a store, and somebody stole it - would you then go to the store and demand your money back?  Then be outraged when you didn't get 100% back?  They would laugh you out of the store.  But that is EXACTLY what you are doing right here.  

The people who write these threads need to come to a basic realization: many people are thieves, and they cause the problems.  Not the people who have goods that are stolen - which these posters are blaming.

Posted on Sun, Oct 30 2016 02:11
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1582

Originally Posted by: Simon Hanna Go to Quoted Post

How many of VSL's customer base are really that shady? I doubt most serious composers would want some random (or friend) to have access to their user area (passwords etc) and use their licences so that seems utterly ridiculous.

The worst part is, the more products you buy from VSL; the more loyal a customer you are, the more you have to lose if something goes wrong. How sad is that?

Not that I would do it but what do I have to loose if I give somebody access to my user area? 

It's not the VSL customer base you have to worry about Simon, it's the piece of excrement thief and/or software pirate you have to worry about.  They can register as a user just like you and they can purchase products and download demo licenses just like you.  From VSL's point of view the risk is just too great to trust that we're all just a bunch of swell guys who would never engage in any improprieties.

Not to mention that, on occasion, a composer might want to "help a brother out."  Afterall, as somebody earlier said VSL is just too overpriced.  Temptation, temptation temptation.


"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Sun, Oct 30 2016 02:32
by Simon Hanna
Joined on Sat, Mar 26 2011, Australia, Posts 30
Originally Posted by: William Go to Quoted Post
"How many of VSL's customer base are really that shady? I doubt most serious composers would want some random (or friend) to have access to their user area (passwords etc) and use their licences so that seems utterly ridiculous." - simon hanna

I would like the hostile, adversarial posters of this, and many other similar threads, to do one thing - tell how they would deal with stolen/lost licenses. In detail. To rule out theft on a regular basis. The fact is, there is no way to distinguish between someone who has lost - or had stolen - a dongle, and someone who just wants another license for free. If your dongle is stolen - you are screwed. It is the same thing as if you bought some stuff at a store, and somebody stole it - would you then go to the store and demand your money back? Then be outraged when you didn't get 100% back? They would laugh you out of the store. But that is EXACTLY what you are doing right here.
The people who write these threads need to come to a basic realization: many people are thieves, and they cause the problems. Not the people who have goods that are stolen - which these postersare blaming.


Your post is ridiculous. FIrstly we are talking about software and licences not something physical.

Secondly we dont need to explain how to recover a licence because literally every other sample company has a system of recovery without charging customers again.


VSL continually claim they are a small company and piracy would ruin them yet 8dio, orchestral tools, spectrasonic audiobro etc all require no dongle and are i would imagine, are comparitively "small".
Posted on Sun, Oct 30 2016 02:45
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5722

deleted

Posted on Sun, Oct 30 2016 02:47
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5722

deleted

Posted on Sun, Oct 30 2016 03:01
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5722

I deleted the previous posts because I should not have responded to begin with.  

This entire thread is wrong, because once the dongle system is used for copy protection, there is no way to distinguish between theft and loss.  So VSL is not in the wrong.   To compare other companies is a false comparison because they don't use the same system.  

Also the statement that comparing physical products is wrong is completely wrong itself - it is exactly analogous, because the posters of this thread want a replacement for something stolen,  for free. That doesn't happen in the real world.  

I have no interest in debating this however - it is utterly fruitless since the people on this thread are hostile and their minds are made up.  They hate VSL and want to tear it down.  It is as simple as that.  My question - if you love the other companies so much - why don't you use them instead?    

Posted on Sun, Oct 30 2016 07:42
by Kai
Joined on Sun, Dec 29 2002, Graz, Austria, Posts 184

Here is a solution that would completely protect both the legitimate business interests of VSL and the equally legitimate security concerns of their customers:

Simply offer a copy protection scheme where the licenses that are loaded onto a dongle can be temporary and in this case the user has to update/validate them at regular intervals. We know that this works from the countless demo licenses VSL offers its users. Since VSL has to pay fees for these licenses to Steinberg they can surely bill these fees to the customer. This would exactly be the “insurance feature” many customers would like. VSL could offer different schemes where the licenses would e.g. be monthly, yearly or unlimited, depending on how much security the customer wants and that correspondingly come with normal, smaller, respectively without any premiums. 

Should a customer loose or damage a key with licenses that last only another few more weeks anyway it should not be any problem for VSL to replace them immediately at no or a minimal fee, whereas if the licenses last e.g. for another half a year the fee could at least be much more reasonable than what we see now). Since Steinberg will earn considerably more money within such a scheme, VSL could negotiate a deal that keeps the premiums for such a service at a very reasonable level for the customer - after all everything will be automated anyway. Moreover VSL could issue bundle licenses for e.g. the entire Symphonic Cube to reduce the cost. 

The advantage of such a scheme compared to cloud-based solutions is that the customer does not need to have a fast and fully reliable internet connection at all times in order to work, but only a minimal one, occasionally: if you forget to update/validate your licenses, you can do this even while traveling at some cafe around the corner.

Posted on Sun, Oct 30 2016 11:21
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1582

I told you all this is a touchy subject on the forum

It boils down to this:

1. Don't lose your key

2. Don't lose your key

3. Don't lose your key

4. If you can get insurance, get it.

Oh! I forgot to mention, don't lose your key.

If you're going to use VSL then you have to abide by their license agreement.  I don't particularly like it either but the benefits justify the risk.  If you feel differently then use somebody else's product.

@ Kai

Your solution has already been suggested in one form or another before.  VSL tends to keep mum on this I guess because of the obvious hostility it generates so we'll see if a beter system is in the works.

Okay now nuff said? 


"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Sun, Oct 30 2016 11:42
by ZeroZero
Joined on Sun, Apr 23 2006, Posts 73

Originally Posted by: William Go to Quoted Post

I deleted the previous posts because I should not have responded to begin with.  

This entire thread is wrong, because once the dongle system is used for copy protection, there is no way to distinguish between theft and loss.  So VSL is not in the wrong.   To compare other companies is a false comparison because they don't use the same system.  

Also the statement that comparing physical products is wrong is completely wrong itself - it is exactly analogous, because the posters of this thread want a replacement for something stolen,  for free. That doesn't happen in the real world.  

I have no interest in debating this however - it is utterly fruitless since the people on this thread are hostile and their minds are made up.  T

Other companies, such as Spectrasonics, Native Instruments and a lot more manage to do this, without penalising anyone.  To compare VSL with other companies is precisely the point - they DONT use the same system VSL should and can change there's. It's simply good business sense to support your customers well.  Your emotional response is OTT.

Originally Posted by: William Go to Quoted Post
"They hate VSL and want to tear it down.  It is as simple as that.  My question - if you love the other companies so much - why don't you use them instead?"
  

Dear , dear, I would guess you dont know anyone in this thread personally, some people might actually be trying to improve VSL customer support 

 

Z

Intel 17, 64 gig RAM Cubase 11
Posted on Sun, Oct 30 2016 15:28
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2730

I will repeat and repeat :

VSL IS A GREAT COMPANY MAKING A GREAT LIBRARY WITH GREAT SOFTWARE, THEY SHOULD WORK WITH STEINBERG OR WITH ANOTHER PROTECTION SYSTEM TO MAKE THERE USER HAPPY TOO

The years have passed but VSL does not listen to it's users, not a single step have been done !

They say that we have to take an insurance, they could provide a list of insurances or make a deal with an insurance company.

As I have said before I have contact a dozen of company, no one insure the contents of the dongle, only it's hardware !

MacBook Pro 2019 16" + 2 x Odisseey G9 49"

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd

Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Big Band Orchestra series, Many Synchronised libs
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra 2, Art Conductor, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

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Posted on Mon, Oct 31 2016 16:12
by fahl5
Joined on Fri, Feb 04 2005, Göttingen, Posts 956

OK I try to sum up as far as I understood the vivid discussion.

  • Everybody here does apreciate VSL and the extreme high quality of their products.
  • Many of us here are ready do pay high prices to work with the powerfull Products offeredn by VSL
  • The more we have paid for, the more seriously afraid we are to simply loose all by chance or badluck
  • The way how the loss of a Dongle is handled right now is currently obviously not able to calm down fears like that.
  • VSL is not the only company in the world who sales expensive highquality software which defenitly has to be licensed for more than good reasons.
  • Many here do know many companies, who established much smarter ways to handle the problem of lost or broken dongles (even Steinberg with their System to register the dongles with the licenses on them seems to organize this problem much smarter, even with using exactly the same Dangle which are in use here.)
  • (As far as I can see seems no one to know any company with such a risky and dangerous handling of such expensive Licesnses)

For me the conclusion is pretty clear:

VSL has to get in contact with other companies to learn how a save Licensesystem can be established and improve their currently unsatisfying solution. There are enough save and working examples out there, that we must not invent anything new here in this thread, or even are honestly in the situation to pretend that there would be no solution at all.

BTW. I am strongly convinced that those who criticise VSL in this point, does it because of their high esteem of VSL, their outstanding Products and just want to help to improve the savetyness and usability of VSL-Products with their criticism.

....just to come finally to an conlusion here

http://libraries.resampled.de/index.php
four parallel interpretations of ambitious classical scores with up to twelve different Libraries

http://beethoven.resampled.de
currently the first four Symphonies of L.v.Beethoven completly recorded with the finest available orchestra samplelibraries (BBCSO, SSO, STO)

http://klassik-resampled.de
Currently 4330 mp3 with more than a whole Week (=more than 8 Days /=nearly 200 hours) of sample based interpretations of complete Scores from 7 Centuries
Posted on Thu, Nov 03 2016 09:25
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2730

Originally Posted by: William Go to Quoted Post

This entire thread is wrong, because once the dongle system is used for copy protection, there is no way to distinguish between theft and loss.  

Of course there is, if the 1st dongle is still used after a second dongle is issue and using the same license,  VSL will notice that there is piracy, and can disable the license on the pirated/loss dongle

There are plenty solutions so we are not charged of the 50 %

Another solution is that VSL joins Apple Apple store protection system !

MacBook Pro 2019 16" + 2 x Odisseey G9 49"

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd

Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Big Band Orchestra series, Many Synchronised libs
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra 2, Art Conductor, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Mon, Nov 21 2016 02:36
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2730

THE SOLUTION

You associate the License number with the dongle number.
 
If a user have a problem with it's dongle (lost, damage, stolen….), you just need to affect the license number to the new dongle and disable the previous dongle 
 
Voilà
  It's a little bit of programming and the user just need to replace it's dongle 
 
Cyril
MacBook Pro 2019 16" + 2 x Odisseey G9 49"

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd

Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Big Band Orchestra series, Many Synchronised libs
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra 2, Art Conductor, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Tue, Feb 14 2017 18:11
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1942

nm, due to 'interest'

MacBookPro 18,3
Apple M1 Pro: 2.3 GHz 8-core i9

Mac OS 12.3.1
VE Pro 7.1298, Nuendo 11.0.41
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