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Some help before purchasing Mir Pro
Last post Wed, Mar 14 2018 by McArnes, 18 replies.
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Posted on Tue, Mar 13 2018 01:16
by McArnes
Joined on Sun, Aug 27 2017, Posts 52
Hi,

(I posted this in another section before I realized this was the correct place, sorry)

I'm demo testing Mir Pro 24 and a couple of the Room packs now, but I'm a little confused.

1. Does Mir Pro 24 come with any of the Room packs or is it completely without any rooms?

2. Do you know how much CPU and RAM one instance of Mir Pro 24 use?

3. Does Miracle come with Mir Pro 24? I didn't realize I had a Miracle demo also until it suddenly appeared in my Audio FX list in Logic. Is Miracle a simple version of Mir Pro 24, or an algorithmic reverb based on Mir Pro 24?

4. Is it possible to have early reflections "bleed" from one instance with the woodwinds to one instance with the brass, or is there some automatic thing going on between the instances, as the placement of instruments changes the room and how the sound is developed. This is why some like to bleed early reflections by sending this between buses.

5. Does it work well for placing whole instrument sections, or does it have to be each instrument (I know you can, but wondering if 20 violins in one instance or 12 horns in one instance sounds OK or weird). The reason I ask is that my system would not handle each instrument in the orchestra + various solo instruments/non-orchestral. So my plan is groups:

1. Flutes + piccolo

2. Oboes + English Horn

3. Clarinets + Bass clarinets

4. Bassoons + Contrabassoons

5. Horns

6. Trumpets

7. Trombones + Tuba

8. Harp + Piano

9. Violin 1 desk 1

10. Violin 1 desk 2

11. Violin 2 desk 1

12. Violin 2 desk 2

13. Violas desk 1

14. Violas desk 2

15. Cellos desk 1

16. Cellos desk 2

17. Double basses

18. Timpani

19. Mallets

20. Various low percussion

21. Various high percussion

22. Choir 1

23. Choir 2

24. Solo

Which I hope my system can handle.

6. Is having two different instances for choir necessary or can I just use the width slider for it to reach the left and right side of the choir? Is more than one instance for each desk for the strings necessary? I thought of it as a compromise for not having every instrument in Mir Pro 24.

7. Is it recommended to use Mir Pro on a slave computer inside VEP6? Or on the master machine inside the daw?

8. If on the slave, can I still use Miracle in the DAW on my master machine?

9. Do you have an overview of the dimensions of the various halls in each Roompack?

10. Must Mir Pro be added as a plugin on each instrument/mixer channel, or can I have one instance of Mir Pro on its own bus, and send the instruments to it?

11. If run in VEP and I have 40 instances, will all instruments still be seen in ththe stage map, or only if used in a daw as a plugin?
Posted on Tue, Mar 13 2018 08:44
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7095

Hi McArnes,

Thanks again for our interest in MIR Pro. I answered your questions already on VI Control, but for the sake of completeness I'll copy/paste my replies:


Quote:
I'm demo testing Mir Pro 24 and a couple of the Room packs now, but I'm a little confused.
 
1. Does Mir Pro 24 come with any of the Room packs or is it completely without any rooms?

 
MIR Pro is the engine, the "sample player", if you want. The RoomPacks contain the IRs of your choice.
 
Quote:
2. Do you know how much CPU and RAM one instance of Mir Pro 24 use?

 
This depends on a lot of factors, like the actual reverb length, cache and buffer settings, but also on system-related ones like processor architecture, RAM speed etc.. As a rule of thumb, CPU speed is always crucial for MIR Pro, RAM size is much more usage dependent.
 
Quote:
3. Does Miracle come with Mir Pro 24? I didn't realize I had a Miracle demo also until it suddenly appeared in my Audio FX list in Logic. Is Miracle a simple version of Mir Pro 24, or an algorithmic reverb based on Mir Pro 24?

 
Like mentioned in the manual, MIRacle is an algorithmic reverb add-on for those who don't have access to a Lexicon 480 ;-) for spicing up the natural (and sometimes quite raw) sounding room information derived from MIR. It's an integral part of the license.
 
Quote:
4. Is it possible to have early reflections "bleed" from one instance with the woodwinds to one instance with the brass, or is there some automatic thing going on between the instances, as the placement of instruments changes the room and how the sound is developed. This is why some like to bleed early reflections by sending this between buses.

 
This "bleed" concept comes from conventional reverberation approaches, I guess. :-) MIR's impulse responses are all recorded in the same room, using the same mic positions, but different IR positions and directions, and much of the interaction that would happen between instruments in this room (due to phase cancellations and the like) will happen in MIR Pro, too. But of course there is no "bleed" from one instrument in another instrument's channel.
 
Quote:
5. Does it work well for placing whole instrument sections, or does it have to be each instrument (I know you can, but wondering if 20 violins in one instance or 12 horns in one instance sounds OK or weird).

 
The more individual signals you give MIR to work with, the better (due to reasons mentioned above). MIR relies on highly sophisticated "Instrument Profiles" to make sure that the typical sound emanation patterns of each instrument type are emulated. - But technically it's ok to use ensemble submixes, too.
 
Quote:
The reason I ask is that my system would not handle each instrument in the orchestra + various solo instruments/non-orchestral. So my plan is groups:
[...]
Which I hope my system can handle.

 
That's nothing that would make a modern DAW sweat, especially with higher latency settings. 
 
Quote:
6. Is having two different instances for choir necessary or can I just use the width slider for it to reach the left and right side of the choir? Is more than one instance for each desk for the strings necessary? I thought of it as a compromise for not having every instrument in Mir Pro 24.

 
MIR will handle stereo signals with ease, of course, and as a matter of fact it takes care for proper distance-dependent handling of stereo width all by itself, as the engine is completely based on Ambisonics. But you can overrule this natural narrowing manually, of course. - Using individual instances for each desk is good practice (e.g. with VSL's Dimension Instruments series), but truth to be told: You will get quite far with a submix sent into one single instance of MIR Pro, too.
 
Quote:
7. Is it recommended to use Mir Pro on a slave computer inside VEP6? Or on the master machine inside the daw?

 
That depends completely on your needs and habits. Personally I like to have MIR on my main mixing system, though, and this makes sense especially when taking into account that MIR's license is valid for one machine only. - Keep in mind that MIR Pro comes as "ordinary" VST/AU/AAX plug-in too. It does not necessarily need VE Pro as host (although its workflow is much more streamlined there, especially when using Vienna Instruments).
 
Quote:
8. If on the slave, can I still use Miracle in the DAW on my master machine?

 
No. MIRacle needs to see the same eLicenser as MIR Pro itself.
 
Quote:
9. Is there an overview of the dimensions of the various halls in each Roompack?

  Yes, of course. Either in the RoomPack manuals, on VSL's product websites, or during the Venue selection in MIR Pro's GUI.
 
Quote:
10. Must Mir Pro be added as a plugin on each instrument/mixer channel, or can I have one instance of Mir Pro on its own bus, and send the instruments to it?

 
Like mentioned before: MIR should be used on individual sound sources, but technically you can use submixes, too. - MIR Pro is _not_ meant to be used as conventional AUX-send based reverb, though, as it has to take care for the positioning of the dry/direct signal components too, to work as expected.
 
HTH,
 
/Dietz
/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Tue, Mar 13 2018 08:52
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7095

... and in answer to your additional 11th question:

Originally Posted by: McArnes Go to Quoted Post

11. If run in VEP and I have 40 instances, will all instruments still be seen in ththe stage map, or only if used in a daw as a plugin?

With MIR Pro you can run as many instances as your system is able to handle; their Icons will all be visible on the Venue Map. MIR Pro 24 is always restricted to 24 instances, as the name implies.

... this is true for both the Vienna Ensemble-based "full" version and the plug-in version.

Kind regards,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Tue, Mar 13 2018 10:51
by McArnes
Joined on Sun, Aug 27 2017, Posts 52

Originally Posted by: Dietz Go to Quoted Post

... and in answer to your additional 11th question:

Originally Posted by: McArnes Go to Quoted Post

11. If run in VEP and I have 40 instances, will all instruments still be seen in ththe stage map, or only if used in a daw as a plugin?

With MIR Pro you can run as many instances as your system is able to handle; their Icons will all be visible on the Venue Map. MIR Pro 24 is always restricted to 24 instances, as the name implies.

... this is true for both the Vienna Ensemble-based "full" version and the plug-in version.

Kind regards,

Thank you, again!

One last question: I'm trying to figure out how to use MIRacle as a master reverb while still having Mir Pro on a slave. Is there a way? Can I send the master output in Logic to VEP6 and back to Logic again, or will it drive the system crazy? I'm mostly worried about my RAM limits on the master computer.

I figure MIRacle is good if you want to blend VSL instruments with instruments in other halls? 

Posted on Tue, Mar 13 2018 11:06
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2543

Thanks for the explanation.

I did not know that MIR PRO could be used in your DAW ;)

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd
VSL lib on a Raid 0 of 4 x 256 GB ssd Sata III - Raid 0 of 4 x 64 GB for other libs
System on a 1 TB ssd
Audio Motu PCI system 84 ins / 64 outs
Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
---
Macbook pro Retina 2.7 ghz 16 GB
---
Mac Mini server 10.10 (server EyeTV, Itunes, WEB, and Backup )
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Overdrive
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3
Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Tue, Mar 13 2018 11:16
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7095

Originally Posted by: McArnes Go to Quoted Post
One last question: I'm trying to figure out how to use MIRacle as a master reverb while still having Mir Pro on a slave. Is there a way? Can I send the master output in Logic to VEP6 and back to Logic again, or will it drive the system crazy? I'm mostly worried about my RAM limits on the master computer.

... errr ... you _could_ achieve this by means of VE Pro's "Audio Input" plug-in, which is able to route audio _from_ your DAW to VE Pro. But to me this setup seems to be a bit convoluted (no pun intended). 8-)

Quote:
I figure MIRacle is good if you want to blend VSL instruments with instruments in other halls?

Actually, MIRacle is meant to add some artificial (and typically modulated) reverb tail, on top of the otherwise unaltered room information derived from MIR Pro. After decades of audio engineering our ears got used to that kind of nice, but completely unnatural aural sensation ... the combination of MIR Pro and MIRacle could be seen as some kind of glorified hybrid reverb. ;-)

Kind regards,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Tue, Mar 13 2018 11:45
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7095

As a post scriptum to this question, please see the attached screenshot. ;-)

Quote:

11. If run in VEP and I have 40 instances, will all instruments still be seen in ththe stage map, or only if used in a daw as a plugin?

File Attachment(s):
SSV-Laengs_MIRx_400Instruments.png (2,419kb) downloaded 31 time(s).

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/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Tue, Mar 13 2018 20:24
by stephen limbaugh
Joined on Tue, Feb 23 2016, Los Angeles, Posts 154

Originally Posted by: Dietz Go to Quoted Post

As a post scriptum to this question, please see the attached screenshot. ;-)

Dietz!  What's the scoop with this Sychron setup???  Different from the default when this pack is opened.  I'm seeing the "wide" stage option, but the orchestra set up in the "long" format.

Posted on Tue, Mar 13 2018 21:01
by McArnes
Joined on Sun, Aug 27 2017, Posts 52

A new question, if I may: How does automation of instrument positions work? Let's say I want to have an instrument closer for a solo section?

Posted on Tue, Mar 13 2018 21:20
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7095

Originally Posted by: stephen limbaugh Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: Dietz Go to Quoted Post

As a post scriptum to this question, please see the attached screenshot. ;-)

Dietz!  What's the scoop with this Sychron setup???  Different from the default when this pack is opened.  I'm seeing the "wide" stage option, but the orchestra set up in the "long" format.

That's the "classical" MIRx setup for Synchron Stage I'm working on since quite a while now. We plan to do a second, "non-classical" setup to supplement the Synchron Instruments series later. 

... and what you see is just the visually rotated Venue Map of SSV "long", for better visibility. You can achieve this by Alt-Ctrl-clicking anywhere in the map. :-) 

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Tue, Mar 13 2018 21:24
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7095

Originally Posted by: McArnes Go to Quoted Post

A new question, if I may: How does automation of instrument positions work? Let's say I want to have an instrument closer for a solo section?

You can't automate movements of MIR Icons, because this leads to small, but audible interruptions and clicks in the audio signal. This is due to the pre-rendering of the case-dependent IRs which takes places as soon as you put an Icon into a chosen spot.

For a solo part I would create a seperate instance (much like the MIRx presets are organized).

HTH,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Tue, Mar 13 2018 23:10
by McArnes
Joined on Sun, Aug 27 2017, Posts 52
That makes sense. I know nothing about programming, but a great feature would be to turn close mics on and off on each instrument with CC.

And some more questions I’m afraid (I hope this thread can be useful for others who are interested in Mir Pro, and if I buy it I want be sure it’s right direction for me.

1. I see that there are no presets in Miracle for the Pernegg Klosterkiche, is that right? I still don't know how to use Miracle though. I have some instruments in Mir Pro, in the Pernegg at the moment. Then I have instruments outside of Mir, from Spitfire. I have positioned the instruments and used Spitfire's mic settings so that they match quite well. But I want to glue all this together with an algorithmic reverb. Is this where using Miracle would be useful? At the moment I'm just using my favorite preset in Lexicon Randomhalll. That works quite well!

2. I guess when I use a VSL instrument in Mir Pro, each instrument’s profile contain eq information? So that a flute loses it’s lower frequencies further back in the room, while a bass drum actually get more lower frequencies back in the room. But it I use a flute or bass drum from another library this changes won’t happen because it’s impossible for Mir Pro to know the instrument. Which means I need to EQ these instruments so that their eq profile gets different in various positions in the room? Or, can I use the 8dio oboe and use the VSL oboe’s profile to get a similar result?

3. When using instruments from other companies, would you recommend using just their close mics before MIr? I won’t use wet Spitfire libraries in Mir though as their just too wet.
Posted on Wed, Mar 14 2018 09:52
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7095

Originally Posted by: McArnes Go to Quoted Post
[...] a great feature would be to turn close mics on and off on each instrument with CC.

The Wet/Dry control does this for each individual Icon. The Dry/Wet Solo-buttons in the Output channel do this for all all active Icons on a stage.

Quote:
[...] I still don't know how to use Miracle though.

I tried to give a lot of examples in the Tutorial chapter of MIR Pro's Manual. ;-)

Quote:
[...] I want to glue all this together with an algorithmic reverb. Is this where using Miracle would be useful? At the moment I'm just using my favorite preset in Lexicon Randomhalll. That works quite well!

This is one of the possible scenarios. If you use 3rd party reverbs, make sure to turn off their early reflection component, otherwise you would try to put a room in a room. 8-)

Quote:
2. I guess when I use a VSL instrument in Mir Pro, each instrument’s profile contain eq information? So that a flute loses it’s lower frequencies further back in the room, while a bass drum actually get more lower frequencies back in the room.

Distance dependent filtering is something that happens in the room all by itself, thus it's integral part of the IRs anyway. Nothing that has to be done by EQing. :-) - The additional "air absorption" filter for the dry signal only affects high frequencies.

Quote:
But it I use a flute or bass drum from another library this changes won’t happen because it’s impossible for Mir Pro to know the instrument. Which means I need to EQ these instruments so that their eq profile gets different in various positions in the room? Or, can I use the 8dio oboe and use the VSL oboe’s profile to get a similar result?

MIR Pro's Instrument Profiles are meant to be used with Vienna Instruments only. They contain highly specific data (even the ones of apparently similar instruments like Flute 1 and Flute 2 are different) which can't and won't work with other audio signals. MIR's "General Purpose Profiles" are meant to be used for these signal sources.

Quote:
3. When using instruments from other companies, would you recommend using just their close mics before MIr?

This is highly recommendable, yes. In case of ensembles I would also try to get rid of any "burnt-in" panning information (by means of an stereo imaging processing device like Vienna Suite's PowerPan or Waves' S1) before feeding the signal into MIR.

Kind regards,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Wed, Mar 14 2018 10:24
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2543

Originally Posted by: Dietz Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: McArnes Go to Quoted Post
[...] a great feature would be to turn close mics on and off on each instrument with CC.

Another nice solution will be to add individual mics for the solos 

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd
VSL lib on a Raid 0 of 4 x 256 GB ssd Sata III - Raid 0 of 4 x 64 GB for other libs
System on a 1 TB ssd
Audio Motu PCI system 84 ins / 64 outs
Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
---
Macbook pro Retina 2.7 ghz 16 GB
---
Mac Mini server 10.10 (server EyeTV, Itunes, WEB, and Backup )
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Overdrive
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3
Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Wed, Mar 14 2018 11:23
by McArnes
Joined on Sun, Aug 27 2017, Posts 52

Originally Posted by: Cyril Blanc Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: Dietz Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: McArnes Go to Quoted Post
[...] a great feature would be to turn close mics on and off on each instrument with CC.

Another nice solution will be to add individual mics for the solos 

Yes, that was kind of what I meant but you wrote it better :)

Posted on Wed, Mar 14 2018 12:34
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7095

Originally Posted by: McArnes Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: Cyril Blanc Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: Dietz Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: McArnes Go to Quoted Post
[...] a great feature would be to turn close mics on and off on each instrument with CC.

Another nice solution will be to add individual mics for the solos 

Yes, that was kind of what I meant but you wrote it better :)

That's not what MIR is about. :-)

MIR "thinks" like an audio engineer in a recording venue: There's a main microphone array, maybe a secondary one for additional spatiousness and eveloping, and there are perfectly aligned spot mics (i.e. the positioned "dry" signal component). All instruments are meant to sit in different positions, but in the same acoustic space. You can easily bring up the volume of one of them, reduce its dry/wet ratio, or (in case you want to achieve a solo-concert like impression) use a dedicated Icon in front of the Main Microphone. - For a pop-mix like, completely seperated solo instrument, simply don't put it into MIR. ;-)

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Wed, Mar 14 2018 12:56
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2543

Originally Posted by: Dietz Go to Quoted Post

in case you want to achieve a solo-concert like impression) use a dedicated Icon in front of the Main Microphone. - For a pop-mix like, completely seperated solo instrument, simply don't put it into MIR. ;-)

 

These are good idea.

Thanks

Cyril

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd
VSL lib on a Raid 0 of 4 x 256 GB ssd Sata III - Raid 0 of 4 x 64 GB for other libs
System on a 1 TB ssd
Audio Motu PCI system 84 ins / 64 outs
Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
---
Macbook pro Retina 2.7 ghz 16 GB
---
Mac Mini server 10.10 (server EyeTV, Itunes, WEB, and Backup )
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Overdrive
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3
Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Wed, Mar 14 2018 20:44
by McArnes
Joined on Sun, Aug 27 2017, Posts 52

I think I'm starting to get a good knowledge of what Mir can do now, thanks to you and the manual, of course, Dietz. Not saying I know how to use it in detail though.

I have a limit with Logic, as I can only have 255 separate instrument tracks. But as my 500+ multi-timbral template consists of a lot of Spitfire instruments, I think I'm able to create enough tracks to have each one in Mir Pro. 

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