Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Forum Jump  
Synchron Piano sympathetic resonance and silent key
Last post Tue, Aug 16 2022 by sforzandrew, 80 replies.
Options
Go to last post
4 Pages«<234
Posted on Thu, Dec 02 2021 15:26
by Phil2
Joined on Wed, Jul 20 2011, Upstate New York, Posts 6

Hello again Paul,

I will add that I've done extensive analysis of my piano sound versus numerous recordings at YouTube and it's clear that when both are using no pedal, mine is superior. When both are using the pedal, mine is superior. But when the recordings are using the pedal and mine is not the recordings are superior.

One main difference with virtual pianos is to get the full pedal resonance you have to have the pedal down before the note is struck. With a real piano, if you depress the pedal immediately after striking a note you will still get most of the resonance. I've checked this on my piano. But not with the virtual piano. And it's extremely difficult if not impossible to have the pedal down before the note without catching the previous note — unless you want an audible gap in sound. I've spent many hours working on this and analyzing all of this. Plus the pedal down samples would give a delightful sound to all notes that are played.

If desired, you could give the option of having the pedal down samples for every microphone position individually, in case some people wanted to mitigate the effect. But it should definitely be available for all the microphones.

I am currently just redoing the recordings I made years ago using your earlier Bösendorfer Imperial and the midi clips I made then, with your Steinway. Thanks, Phil

Posted on Fri, Dec 03 2021 15:15
by Phil2
Joined on Wed, Jul 20 2011, Upstate New York, Posts 6

I would very much appreciate a response, Paul. And if you don't intend to do this please tell me why. It seems like it would be a very simple thing to do and would make many people happy. Theoretically everyone.

If you absolutely won't do it I will have to figure out a way to do it myself. But it will be extremely time consuming, and if I have to do it I want to get started on it now.

I guess I'm dumb but it took me a long time to realize why sometimes my mix sounded better than other recordings and other times it sounded worse. I guess it's because I assumed the sympathetic was doing what you said it would. My solution this would definitely make it a superior piano.

Best, Phil

Posted on Wed, Dec 22 2021 21:33
by MikeR1154
Joined on Sun, Sep 19 2021, Posts 5

I just wanted to put in another vote for improved sympathetic resonance, silent key, and improved una corda (ideally samples, but a better algorithmic una corda, perhaps with adjustability, would also be great). I'd probably put una corda first on that list--and would even pay for an upgrade that included true una corda samples.

Posted on Wed, Dec 22 2021 23:28
by Phil2
Joined on Wed, Jul 20 2011, Upstate New York, Posts 6

I'm certain they won't do una corda since they have to re-record the entire pianos and it would effectively double the size of the download. Frankly I don't even like it on my Baldwin 5'8" grand because when the dampers come down they make a little bit of a twang because not all the strings are vibrating equally. It was that way when it was new. But the sustain resonances would be very simple for them to do.

I've been doing the sustain resonances myself using the sampler Kontakt. If anyone else wants to know how, let me know. It's a bit of work.

Posted on Sun, Dec 26 2021 17:52
by MikeR1154
Joined on Sun, Sep 19 2021, Posts 5

Originally Posted by: Phil2 Go to Quoted Post

I'm certain they won't do una corda since they have to re-record the entire pianos and it would effectively double the size of the download. Frankly I don't even like it on my Baldwin 5'8" grand because when the dampers come down they make a little bit of a twang because not all the strings are vibrating equally. It was that way when it was new. But the sustain resonances would be very simple for them to do.

I've been doing the sustain resonances myself using the sampler Kontakt. If anyone else wants to know how, let me know. It's a bit of work.

I agree true una corda samples are unlikely--but a better una corda model should be doable--and as I think someone else on this forum mentioned could be adjustable (maybe even including felt or moderator options as as alternatives to una corda effect).

Nevertheless, I think una corda samples should be considered, at least for a limited set of pianos and/or mics. The Steinway perhaps has a large enough market to support una corda as a paid upgrade or even separate alternative instrument. The 280VC might be another good candidate, on the assumption Stage B makes scheduling a new recording session easier.

Posted on Sun, Mar 20 2022 02:28
by TooManyTims
Joined on Wed, Dec 08 2021, Posts 1

Hi all.

I want to add another voice to the call for proper sympathetic modelling. Its quite startling to me that:

  • a product at this price point does such a terrible job of it
  • the pianos sound as good as they do without it.

I had to laugh (and agree) with one of the previous comments that referred to it as a “mud slider”. I simply can’t find any level/gain which creates a pleasing enhancement to the sound of the piano.

What’s baffling to me (and I assume and honest mistake???) is that the online manual correctly describes the way you should be able to generate/hear sympathetic resonance, and I quote “You can hear this effect when you hold down a key without sounding it and then briefly hit another key”. https://www.vsl.info/en/manuals/synchron-pianos/play-view

As all of you know, it simply does not work in the way it should (and as described in the manual). Also, as others have already pointed out, products at much lower price points (like Ravenscroft and a think Garritan) do a great job this and to great musical effect.

@VSL. You have some truly great piano libraries (at least to my ear) with the Synchron series and your 14 day returns policy is such a welcome thing for this industry but, please add proper sympathetic modelling (and silent key for that matter). This would turn your already good product into the only piano VST anyone would ever need.

Tags: sympathetic
Posted on Sun, May 15 2022 05:25
by Boy
Joined on Sat, May 14 2022, Posts 1

Embertone Walker 1955 1.1 update already make it come true.  

Posted on Wed, Jun 01 2022 19:18
by Snoopy10
Joined on Sun, Dec 22 2019, Stuttgart, Posts 32

I have to agree with you completely in all aspects. I completely agree with you. I am also a programmer and what you say is just so. It doesn't take 10 minutes to solve the problem. It is simply incomprehensible why it is not possible to spend 10 minutes on this problem in 3 years. Also the problem with symphathek resonance is very unsatisfactory. After all, you have also paid for this function. This is not ok.

Georgy
Posted on Wed, Jun 01 2022 19:26
by Snoopy10
Joined on Sun, Dec 22 2019, Stuttgart, Posts 32

Yes, I also think that it is about time that these two important problems are solved. Please write all your frustration here, if you have the same problem. It's no use if you just read it, agree, but don't write anything about it. It only happens something if there are enough frustrated buyers and then just buy other products. Sorry for my English, I am not good at it.

Georgy
Posted on Wed, Jun 22 2022 19:57
by Nottipiglet
Joined on Mon, Jun 06 2022, Singapore, Posts 2
I would like to vote for silent key and sympathetic resonance as well. It is actually quite shameful for a premier product like VSL to ignore rather standard industry features like sympathetic resonance and silent keys. All my other piano players are able to do it.
Kevin
Posted on Thu, Jun 23 2022 05:07
by JoelW
Joined on Wed, Jun 02 2021, USA, Posts 8

I also support and request this feature. Many other VSTIs correctly implement those. From a developer perspective silent keys shouldn't be that difficult to implement (except for UI/config/etc.), since we could ignore generating sound for notes when it is below a threshold keydown velocity.

Sympathetic resonance would be more challenging one, but it's noteworthy there has been a lot of criticism in the community about the poor sympathetic resonance. Having those features will make VSL synchron pianos even greater.

Posted on Thu, Jun 23 2022 08:05
by Nottipiglet
Joined on Mon, Jun 06 2022, Singapore, Posts 2
I believe these issues have been highlighted to VSL a long time ago. Unfortunately, it did not get the attention it deserves. I believe that sympathetic resonance and silent keys are necessary features to create a realistic playing experience, but VSL has ignored it because users assume that the features are there (since they are basic), and only realize that they are missing after making the purchase and playing with it for a couple of days. I speak from experience.

VSL is ignoring it because it does not hit their bottom line. However, I think it will hit sales once people get to know about it. I, for one, would not have made my purchase if I knew of the missing features.

VSL is of the view that they should spend their resources sampling new pianos because it looks nice in their annual marketing drive. The way to change this is to make this lack of essential features known across all VST forums. I believe very few serious pianists will bother with VSL if they know that silent keys and sympathetic resonance are missing in synchron. Once it hits their sales numbers, VSL will be forced to put it in their development roadmap.

Let’s start a campaign to disseminate this information? I am sure we can conquer this.
Kevin
Posted on Tue, Jul 05 2022 13:31
by Olivier W.
Joined on Sun, Jul 25 2021, France, Posts 7

hi,

I use the Steinway-D trial.

The sound is incredible -> the best Sampled Steinway around the world.

But i don't understand why there is a "Sympathetic Resonance" setting in Synchron Piano player :

-> this feature doesn't work. even if i set it to 0 dB -> no rules between undampered keys.

I love this Steinway, and the soluce to add silence Key and Sympathetic resonance is here :

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3230130/steinway-vsl-d-274-pianoteq-to-add-sympathetic-resonance.html#Post3230130

to VSL : just add a Silent Key

and a Switch / option 1 or 2 :

1) Sympathetic resonance with sustain samples only : ok actually when you press pedal down (but if you release up whil key is still down, is still sustain samples that is used)

(already work this way in VSL without Pedal up-> down or down->up transitions) : CPU safe solution

2) Sympathetic Resonance between keys / pedal up / down with DSP engine for close mic(s) only

(like Garritan CFX soluce) : more CPU)

I love this Steinway, but please make a real Sympathetic Resonance DSP engine

Regards,

Olivier F.

Olivier W.
Posted on Wed, Jul 06 2022 04:38
by Steve White
Joined on Sun, Jul 03 2022, US, Posts 4

Yes, VSL, please add the silent key feature (the ability to depress a key so gradually, under control, with zero acceleration, and a constant very slow speed, that no sound is produced). As everyone else has said, you can of course do that with an acoustic piano.

It's utterly impossible to practice very, very quiet playing with my Vienna Symphonic Library Bösendorfer 280VC, because if I make a mistake and produce something like MIDI vel ocity1, then I still hear a sound with this software, because it's impossible to depress a key and NOT hear something. I wouldn't hear anything with an acoustic piano, or with something like Pianoteq. I know that for a fact, b/c I've done enough experiments. And if I don't hear anything then I know I've gone too far and I need to course-correct. But VSL will mask my error and so it's a useless learning/practicing tool for this kind of thing.

Whenever I want to practice very quiet playing, I have to switch to a better piece of software (better in the sense of it emulating the thing that a virtual piano is supposed to be emulating). In fact it puts me off using VSL at all.

-Steve

-Steve
Posted on Wed, Jul 06 2022 20:23
by Steve White
Joined on Sun, Jul 03 2022, US, Posts 4

Please implement silent key. There are always more users who want a feature than you're aware of. And not all users are equal in terms of their benefit to your ecosystem, so just a simple scalar count doesn't tell you enough. Despite that, I'd say that 5 dissatisfied customers (in this regard) are 5 more than you want.

-Steve
Posted on Wed, Jul 06 2022 21:35
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 13526

Hi, 

Thanks for the reminders!

We have not found the time to add this feature yet. Also an improved algorithm for sympathetic resonance is still high on the list for our Synchron Pianos. Also M1 Native Support...  

Can't give you an ETA, but I can tell you that we hear you.

Best,
Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Wed, Jul 13 2022 17:21
by Olivier W.
Joined on Sun, Jul 25 2021, France, Posts 7

Hi,

before next improved Sympathetic Resonance VSL update, here a Script Soluce for silent Key, and overtones, only for Logic pro 10 users (Audio Unit Version of VSL Piano Player):

Link : Only for Mac / LOGIC Pro 10 users

(One track for the main sound with Silent key/ Second track modified for Sympathetic resonance)

V3.8.8 : Updated -> 23 July 2022 :

-> added Overtones rules

-> use the Powerfull EQ VSL feature on each Steinway keys, to use only the first partial at +18dB, in Sympathetic Resonance Logic scripted track : (Very real now)

Latest version in this folder :

https://mega.nz/folder/s44gXSKK#-YkZ6lq2SH8q3RK7LoYgFw

 

Regards,

Olivier W. Fr.

Olivier W.
Posted on Mon, Jul 25 2022 10:25
by Mary
Joined on Tue, Oct 18 2016, Posts 1

Hi Paul,

At first there was VEP 7 that needed all your attention. Now with Mir Pro 3D ready and rocking please fulfill your promise on the Sympathetic resonance and Silent Key request. It has been hanging around for such a long time. Come on guys! Enjoy your well earned holidays and when you're fully re-charged make us happy!

Regards,

Willem

Posted on Tue, Jul 26 2022 12:41
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 13526

Hi Willem, 

That's our only goal, to make you happy. Even if it takes longer than expected, we'll get there. 

And I want to hear some incredible demos featuring the silent key!

Best, 
Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Tue, Aug 16 2022 13:22
by sforzandrew
Joined on Sat, Apr 09 2022, UK, Posts 1

Just to throw in another vote for silent key support - even as a priority over improved sympathetic resonance. For the most part I've been happy with the Synchron CFX, but I can't recommend it to anyone else without this feature. It's good to see this thread is still getting attention, but it looks like this has been missing for a very long time.

4 Pages«<234
You cannot post new threads in this forum.
You cannot reply to threads in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.