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CHANGE IN VSL'S DIRECTION ?
Last post Wed, Sep 05 2018 by Eptesicus, 81 replies.
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Posted on Sun, Jun 10 2018 05:57
by JimmyHellfire
Joined on Tue, Dec 24 2013, Posts 335

Originally Posted by: Acclarion Go to Quoted Post

Really, just to drive the point home:  would you buy any library by any developer without demos of the sounds?  Why then is it so offensive to ask for evidence of your own musical output to determine the value of your opinion, even if the individual assessing that value is doing so purely in a subjective way?

You're gonna have to scroll up a bit and have a read, it's perfectly laid out in my post.

Your comparisons miss a very important point: I'm not trying to sell anything to anyone. I don't have to "prove my credentials" to talk perspective on multi-mic recorded libraries and general tech. If we were arguing composition or whatever, that would be a different matter. But right here, right now: it's a disingenuous and anti-intellectual position and deserves to be shot down with every bit of sincerity and directness.

Go back to the post that provoked the contention in the first place. Go and read it. It was about amounts of reverb tail, timbre and available mic positions. That's a topic of tangible substance. You're telling me I first need to present my own symphony to be "allowed" to offer to you the notion that Synchron Strings actually has a balanced sound that isn't particulary colored at all? Seriously?

People have heard my work. Some of them have heard it in theatres. It just so happens that William hasn't. Is that important? I'm old enough to recognize when the principle debates come up and I know they always do when there's BS and ulterior motives involved.

Needless to say, I'd be way more happy to talk Synchron Strings instead.

Posted on Sun, Jun 10 2018 12:20
by Acclarion
Joined on Sat, Aug 15 2015, Canada, Eh!, Posts 558
Originally Posted by: JimmyHellfire Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Acclarion Go to Quoted Post

Really, just to drive the point home: would you buy any library by any developer without demos of the sounds? Why then is it so offensive to ask for evidence of your own musical output to determine the value of your opinion, even if the individual assessing that value is doing so purely in a subjective way?

You're gonna have to scroll up a bit and have a read, it's perfectly laid out in my post.
Your comparisons miss a very important point: I'm not trying to sell anything to anyone. I don't have to "prove my credentials" to talk perspective on multi-mic recorded libraries and general tech. If we were arguing composition or whatever, that would be a different matter. But right here, right now: it's a disingenuous and anti-intellectual position and deserves to be shot down with every bit of sincerity and directness.
Go back to the post that provoked the contention in the first place. Go and read it. It was about amounts of reverb tail, timbre and available mic positions. That's a topic of tangible substance. You're telling me I first need to present my own symphony to be "allowed" to offer to you the notion that Synchron Strings actually has a balanced sound that isn't particulary colored at all? Seriously?
People have heard my work. Some of them have heard it in theatres. It just so happens that William hasn't. Is that important? I'm old enough to recognize when the principle debates come up and I know they always do when there's BS and ulterior motives involved.
Needless to say, I'd be way more happy to talk Synchron Strings instead.


I would suggest that you are selling something: you're sellling us on the validity of your ideas and opinions when you post on a public forum, and a simple way to persuade those that read your posts that your ideas and opinions carry weight, is to showcase your skills in using the products for which you are offering a critique. It's less about he music, and more about the production skills. You can't possibly miss the relevance of proving your credentials as a way of enhancing the value of your critiques, can you? Being a critic and defending a position publically does make you a salesman, for better or for worse...and there's nothing wrong with that. I'm simply suggesting that the time you invest in crafting these responses could be saved by simply posting examples of your works so as to allow a reader to either look deeper in to your critiques, or dismiss your ideas due to a lack of (perceived) skill/competence/expertise by readers who find your work to be less than impressive.

For the record, I don't assume anything without proof. You may very well eclipse every composer on this forum with your production skills, but absent any proof, you may be an armchair musician like the armchair quarterback that knows every play the coach should have made after the fact.
Finally, I'm not willing to die on the hill for this battle and don't want to pressure you to post music, as you're clearly not comfortable doing so. I was simply replying to the thread as another individual that prefers to read expert opinions, and wishes more people would offer up demonstrations of their work, so I could "trim the fat" of the many worthless opinions that populate forums, (not saying at all that you're one of them!) and focus on the few whose opinions are valid to me based on my admiration of the quality of their work.

Cheers!
Dave
Posted on Sun, Jun 10 2018 14:15
by JimmyHellfire
Joined on Tue, Dec 24 2013, Posts 335

Originally Posted by: Acclarion Go to Quoted Post
absent any proof, you may be an armchair musician like the armchair quarterback that knows every play the coach should have made after the fact.

But does that justify the out of the nowhere rude and bellicose treatment I was subject to in this particular thread?

Quote:
Finally, I'm not willing to die on the hill for this battle and don't want to pressure you to post music, as you're clearly not comfortable doing so.

Is that so? As I said - my work is not a particularly secret affair, so why would I wear that shoe? To be honest, I don't find it fitting to showcase my pieces here because apart from the Woodwinds, they didn't feature a lot of VSL lately (obviously I'd love to put SyS through their gears after having them lie around on my drive for 7 months, but like everyone else I'm waiting for that damn player). It doesn't mean that I don't know anything about multi-mic libraries.

I already said that I won't be dorked into this kind of "credentials" game here because I know who I'm dealing with and that it's a diversion tactic. From that standpoint, it's probably smarter not to die on this particular hill, as you put it, because so far you have been involuntarily playing my "antagonist's" game by making it about "me" and fully diverting the discussion from the original point it was about. Absolutely no offense to you, I get your perspective, but context matters.

Posted on Sun, Jun 10 2018 15:19
by Acclarion
Joined on Sat, Aug 15 2015, Canada, Eh!, Posts 558

I'm personally not offended that you choose not to share your work, and further, I agree that you shouldn't be subject to any form of abuse by offering opinions, but I really think you shouldn't keep suggesting that your work is not a particularly secret affair, when in fact, it actually is.  Your phone number is known to many people I'm sure, but if you haven't made anyone on this forum privy to it, then, your phone number is a secret affair here.  In essence, by saying your music has been heard in films, and is known to many people, but not revealing your actual identity, you're playing the game of building yourself up without the consequence of having others vet your statements.  It's a small point, but I think it goes to what a lot of people do on forums, in terms of hiding behind a pseudonym, and bragging about their accomplishments, without subjecting themselves to any scrutiny.  

That's the only thing I'm personally strongly against.  Have at it with a discussion of libraries and, in no way, do I discount your voice in sharing your thoughts.  Power to you for it!  Anyway, I do at least appreciate your explanation as to why you aren't sharing your pieces, although I can't speak for others.

I'm checking out, but do welcome a continued discussion about the Synchron strings, as I learn from all of your ideas and insights, and am eagerly waiting for the release of the player as well.

All the best,

Dave

Posted on Mon, Jun 11 2018 04:01
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1582

Originally Posted by: JimmyHellfire Go to Quoted Post

I think it's odd what people are making out of this. Almost a quasi-religious discussion. Even more so considering the fact that the Synchron series so far has been still very much in line with VSLs "philosophy". Some people act as if the Synchron Strings were swimming in a sea of reverb and had this totally distinct, immutable sound, like it came straight out of a Hollywood movie.

Quite the opposite is true. SyS might be the driest "wet" library out there. It's not at all comparable to the Spitfire stuff or whatever. It has 100% VSL character - pristine, flexible, more "classical" - and has such a subtle reverb tail that would hardly get in the way of anything you might want to do. And the multi-mic setup is exactly what you need for the same flexibility you always had with VSL. If you need a closer, drier sound - what's the problem? Dial in the mics accordingly! It's easier and faster done than previously.

 The most notable change is that due to the realistic spatial depth, the samples simply sound more natural and "real" than the older libraries.

 It seems to me that some of the notions expressed here have more to do with tribal instincts and "choosing sides" than with using one's ears.

 

 

Jimmy,

I'm not sure if this was in response to my previous post or if you were just making a general statement about the direction the thread was heading but maybe the point I made became diluted from the irrelevant rambling that I started so I'll try to make it again.

For the record, I've heard the SyS demos and I've seen the videos.  I really like what I saw and heard  I'm especially attracted to the details in the samples

But I was trying to make the point that there is an artistic process in creating a sonic environment all your own whether you're using MIR, Vienna Suite, or some 3rd party plug ins.  This process can be just as involved and require just as much passion as stringing notes together to create a composition and that is why I don't want to see the Silent Stage retired.  Now if this is a "tribal" instinct then I guess I'm a proud card carrying member of the Silent Stage Tribe but that doesn't mean I'm taking sides against the SyS Tribe.

I think VSL has recognized a market trend here and SyS is their answer to it.  Working composers are under more pressure to create more product faster than before and SyS can be used to that end.  Everything sounds bueatiful right out of the box which saves time.

There's an old saying," I don't know what the secret to happiness is but the secret to failure is trying to make everybody happy" 

Well, I think maybe VSL has figured out a way to "make everybody happy" by creating the Synchron series.  If you want the spatial reverbed samples go with Synchron but if you like to create your own sonic environments stay with the Silent Stage samples.  But!!!  Give us the choice.  And I propose we call the Silent Stage samples just that "Silent Stage" not Classic, not Legacy not the old stuff, etc.


"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Mon, Jun 11 2018 04:41
by mobileavatar
Joined on Mon, Jul 25 2011, Posts 64

Originally Posted by: jasensmith Go to Quoted Post

Give us the choice.  And I propose we call the Silent Stage samples just that "Silent Stage" not Classic, not Legacy not the old stuff, etc.

I concur, but saying it more to VSL... if VSL does not put out new products (soon enough) for the Silent Stage soon enough, the series will get stale anyhow.

What was the last product for the Silent Stage? Wasn't it "Roompack. 6: Synchron Stage Vienna"?? And what was one before that???

I empathize decisions are often market-driven, but IMHO, if they rely too much on the market, there will be no vision, or the vision might not be that unique.

With the release of Synchron Piano and Synchron FX Strings, VSL has proven that they have maintained their standard of excellence. If they could be slightly more transparent with their roadmap, I think many of us will be a lot less anxious... and more than happy to embrace new products in either series.

Hopefully, VSL understands that we are investing in not just their libraries but also their vision. Edit: Probably VSL understands that aspect too well... :D

Posted on Mon, Jun 11 2018 04:43
by mobileavatar
Joined on Mon, Jul 25 2011, Posts 64

...

Posted on Mon, Jun 11 2018 05:07
by JimmyHellfire
Joined on Tue, Dec 24 2013, Posts 335

Originally Posted by: jasensmith Go to Quoted Post

But I was trying to make the point that there is an artistic process in creating a sonic environment all your own whether you're using MIR, Vienna Suite, or some 3rd party plug ins.  This process can be just as involved and require just as much passion as stringing notes together to create a composition and that is why I don't want to see the Silent Stage retired.

That makes a lot of sense. I wasn't looking at it that way. You're right of course that conceiving and sculpting the sonics are a substantial aspect - especially if one uses things like MIR and has fully incorporated it into their process - and I can absolutely see that working on those aspects is enjoyable, important and part of the journey.

From that perspective, it's a legitimate concern that VSL is seemingly contradicting their whole ecosystem so far. On the other side, time is such a problematic factor - it most certainly is for me - and anything that does away with another step of this already often very tedious journey is welcome.

The thing I couldn't relate to as much  is the "slippery slope" kind of thinking that seems to imply that VSL is doing "out of the box", idiot composer libraries now because that's what sells today. But there's still a huge difference between a library that simply comes with some already baked-in ambience and offers several mic positions to help you shape the desired sound, and sonic "readymades" that make promises like "sound like XY in under 30 seconds!", box the user into one certain sonic environment, or emit complete phrases by holding down a key.

So far I found that SyS is still very much in line with what VSL was doing previously, in terms of sonics and character, and therefore thought that some of the fears or criticisms expressed in this thread were over the top and perhaps came with somewhat of an ideological background.

Dial in your mics  + some EQ if neccessary, and go - that's a new approach for VSL. One that I personally absolutely welcome, but whether it actually pans out is still to be seen (Have I already mentioned that this damn player really needs to be out now? ). The "older" approach on the other hand is already tried and tested and I of course understand that users are wondering if what they have become accomplished in using is considered "obsolete" now.

Posted on Mon, Jun 11 2018 06:21
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5640

I was going to write more here but - I realized it is pointless.  And actually it is slightly repulsive to me to correspond this way.  It is an artificial and distorted way of conversing.  

Anyway I will sign off and let all the experts do what they do while I go and work on some music.

Posted on Mon, Jun 11 2018 06:58
by JimmyHellfire
Joined on Tue, Dec 24 2013, Posts 335

Funny, because I saw the post before you edited it out. Wise decision in any case.

Posted on Mon, Jun 11 2018 20:56
by Errikos
Joined on Tue, Jun 12 2007, Posts 1076

Having read insightful posts here, like Bill's and Jasen's (I like the Adam Smith reference), and others', I am thankful I am not the only one having these thoughts about VSL's new direction. I have to admit that it is the last of the major 'Houses' that is moving to cater to the 'Inept' market, but I have to be thankful for all the wonderful products they have created thus far that literally changed our creative lives, and hope they don't stop!

But I can't help laughing silly at the ending of that Synchron FX video where the guy says "...so that you can create YOUR VERY OWN SIGNATURE sound..." 

If you can't notate/MIDI it yourself, it's NOT your music!

In these modern days to be vulgar, illiterate, common and vicious, seems to give a man a marvelous infinity of rights that his honest fathers never dreamed of. - Oscar Wilde
Posted on Mon, Jun 11 2018 22:51
by fatis12_24918
Joined on Sat, Dec 16 2006, Posts 311

Originally Posted by: Errikos Go to Quoted Post

...But I can't help laughing silly at the ending of that Synchron FX video where the guy says "...so that you can create YOUR VERY OWN SIGNATURE sound..." 

LOL this is a good one!

Well actually VSL published already the REAL tool for creating FX strings with YOUR VERY OWN SIGNATURE sound, and it was VI Pro 2 with Dimension strings: working with sequencing patterns, and individual player control, including detuning (e.g. "out of tune"  humanization envelopes) you had the fast way of creating building blocks for clusters and effects... YOUR OWN, not the pre-canned ones.

But this new set of lybraries are for quick real-time manipulation on the keyboard, quick-arrangers on tight time schedule, more than accurate composers. What's wrong? ...the market demand... VSL offers... still we can make our choice.

Posted on Tue, Jun 12 2018 01:19
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5640

Speaking of old/new Synchron, here is a piece mixed with MIR Synchron but using the Silent Stage Instruments.  I recently tried out the MIR Synchron and it seems to fit this piece...

The Valiant

Posted on Wed, Jun 13 2018 02:49
by Acclarion
Joined on Sat, Aug 15 2015, Canada, Eh!, Posts 558
Bravo, Bill. Thank you for posting your new piece, which demonstrates so well, the versatility and usefulness of the silent stage samples with the Synchron Mir impulses. The piece is highly enjoyable and very well produced. Congrats!

Dave
Posted on Wed, Jun 13 2018 18:42
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5640

Thanks Dave! It is a very direct mix, just loading the instruments into the MIR Synchron with only a little adjustment of wet/dry ratios.  I am still not too familiar with this venue so am trying it out.  It seems spacious but very clear.  

Posted on Wed, Jun 13 2018 20:20
by C.B.
Joined on Wed, Aug 11 2010, Quebec Canada, Posts 129
Hi

Nice piece. Impressive orchestration and Mix. Vous avez du métier et ça s’entend!

Congratulation William.

Claude B.
C.B.
Posted on Thu, Jun 14 2018 01:41
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5640

Thank you Claude!  The mix is due to Synchron which gives a really good sound instantly.  Though I am still trying to figure out how to incorporate it in general.  It  has a clear sound and that makes one want to add more wet, so it is easy to go too far.  

Posted on Sat, Jun 16 2018 02:37
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5640

While waiting for the Synchron Player which is obviously a hugely difficult and complex piece of software that needs to be worked on... I should distract from the real interest of the player.  

Putting it more positively I would actually like to hear those other pieces mentioned, not just as taunting, but seriously.  

Posted on Sat, Jun 16 2018 06:43
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 12981

Hi William, 

Everybody is welcome in this forum and we are happy about every contribution to this community. 

What we don't like are fights. Everybody has a right to his own opinion as long as it is not insulting to anybody else on the forum, especially on a personal level. 

We do hear and appreciate both criticism and praise and our response it to work even harder, in both cases.

Sp in short: Let's not fight. Please. 

Thanks, 
Paul 

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Sat, Jun 16 2018 12:51
by MMKA
Joined on Tue, May 22 2012, Posts 456

Hi William, I love "The Valiant", the music, the sound. I don't hear any difference between the silent stage instruments and the synchron stage instruments, when it comes to the space, where they have been placed in. So I think, with this piece you show that the fear, that old libraries become legacy, is unjust and that VSL is making an even vaster pallet of thousands of colors of instruments. We are rich that we can have this beautiful source of instruments for our musical needs and we can congratulate each other for that, with a thanks to the guys in Vienna 

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