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Synchron Orchestral Strings in Synchron Player -- when?
Last post Wed, Jun 20 2018 by garylionelli, 90 replies.
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Posted on Fri, Jun 08 2018 19:26
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5604

fahl5 you are totally right about that.  Also I agree very much with what you said on the other thread about the Spitfire - very funny and true.  

Posted on Fri, Jun 08 2018 21:04
by Sovereign
Joined on Sun, Nov 05 2017, Posts 19

Originally Posted by: fahl5 Go to Quoted Post

Sorry, but I fear you misunderstood Hans Zimmer Strings a bit. HZS provide You per section (not 9 different Mikrophonepositions) but as far as I understood it only the choice between 1 (Basses), 2 (Violas) up to 5 different recording positions of the Sections. Yes each seem to be recorded with a different amount of Microphones. But you do not have (as far as I know) for each microphoneposition seperate Samples as you have in Synchron Strings.

Hmm, no that is most certainly not true. I own both so I'm not misunderstanding HZS at all. These are the max amount of offered mics, the amount varies per section (and per patch), from the Spitfire page:

NUMBER OF MICS

  • 60 Violins - 21
  • 20 Violins Left - 13
  • 20 Violins Centre - 14
  • 20 Violins Right - 13
  • Violins Galleries - 15
  • 20 Violas Wide - 17
  • 20 Violas Centre - 15
  • 60 Cellos - 26
  • 20 Cellos Left - 15
  • 20 Cellos Centre - 14
  • 20 Cellos Right - 15
  • Cellos Galleries - 18
  • 24 Basses - 21

The mic positions are all actual recorded samples, you can turn the mic positions on and off individually (they vary from close, tree, ambient, outriggers, mid distance pairs, gallery mics, and more). Synchron works in the same way, recorded mic pairs which you can turn on and off.

The HZS 60 Cellos long patch really does have 26 mic positions available compared to 8 for Synchron. I'm not sure which five recording positions in HZS you would be refering to. HSZ is smaller in size (180+ gigs) for sure, not because of the mic positions but mainly because it is not as deeply sampled in terms of velocity layers.

The 'flexibilty' which Synchron offers using sliders to do a live mix with mic positions has been available for a while now in other Kontakt libraries as well, although usually less than 8 positions. It's not really anything new, the execution of the idea in Synchron is just fine (from what I've seen in the Piano Synchron player before it kept crashing) but I would hardly call it ground-breaking. It's rather a necessity to be competitive these days as all other library developers are doing similar things. 

Posted on Fri, Jun 08 2018 21:22
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5604

the number of players is so huge in the Hans Zimmer strings that there will be absolutely no expression audible.  A huge generic sound.  That's what people want today? 

Posted on Fri, Jun 08 2018 23:31
by fahl5
Joined on Fri, Feb 04 2005, Göttingen, Posts 956

Hi Sovereign,

OK I still have the impression that here are several diferent kind "numbers" of mingeled:

the Number of Microphones used to record is neither for the Spitfire nor for the Synchron Series the same as the number of mixable micophone-configrations..

For the Synchronstrings you have 8 mixable samplesets with different microphone configurations, which are nevertheless recorded each with multiple Microphones.

And if you already have HZS, than you know that the Mixer of the UI does not offer 26 mixable Channels, but as far as I can see offers just 6 microphone configurations. (Close, Tee, Amb, Out, Mid x, Mid y of which each might be recorded with using altogether 26 Microphones but for what Reason have they been counted. ?)

But as far as you only think about the concept of Mixing different microphone configurations, VSL might only go one or two steps ahead on a path which is already established.

The real "Quantum Leap" as I indicated is something you seem to ignore perhaps since you simple do not yet realised its significance at all. I am talking about the 8 "Articulation Dimensions". And I am not talking about acoustics "Dimensions" like different microphoneconfigurations!!!Its about Dimensions of variations of the articulation it self.

Just try to understand what those  up to 8 "Articulation Dimensions" of the Synchron player are about and you proably understand a bit better what Quantum Leap I am talking about. 

Ok to make it a bit easier for You as far as I can see HZS offers maybe 8 chooseable Articulations in the All in one Patch. You can manipulate some of them with CC's for Expression (volume) and Vibrato have I missed any further?  Sorry but even if I have missed one or another additional CC, take a look at the Synchron FX and you probably nderstand better how poor that choice looks like regarding the possible variety which opens with every additional Synchron-Player Articulation-Dimension to  adjust the audible playingstyle/technique to the certain need of your composition.

And yes it matters not only in this context (at least to me) a bit more of a section is meticolously "deep" sampled" or not. and if Vibratos are scripted or based on real recoded samples. For me at least this seem to be ofdeeper "power" thatn any exaggerated Sectionsize.

(You asked for the Recording positions. I confess I thought the "60 Cellos All in one" would at least allow to mix each recordingposition (f.i. 20 right, 20 centre, 20 left, 20 Galleries" seperatly. Sorry I was wrong this is obviously not possible. If you want to, you have to load for each an additional Patch.)

To sum up HZS might be a development based on a more or less "glamorous" marketing Idea, while even the new Spitfire player does not change that much fundamentally what we already have seen from other Kontakt-Spitfire libraries except perhaps the pretty exaggerated sectionsizes of HZS.

With Synchron Series a powerful new concept of working with Orchestra samples comes up which deserves the time it needs to work as it is intended.

http://libraries.resampled.de/index.php
four parallel interpretations of ambitious classical scores with up to twelve different Libraries

http://beethoven.resampled.de
currently the first four Symphonies of L.v.Beethoven completly recorded with the finest available orchestra samplelibraries (BBCSO, SSO, STO)

http://klassik-resampled.de
Currently 4330 mp3 with more than a whole Week (=more than 8 Days /=nearly 200 hours) of sample based interpretations of complete Scores from 7 Centuries
Posted on Sat, Jun 09 2018 00:25
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5604

I agree with fahl5  that Synchron will be a huge step forward with the player.  On the Zimmer strings the size is far too large - bigger is not better after a certain point.  It makes things bland and inexpressive. 

Posted on Sat, Jun 09 2018 06:17
by mobileavatar
Joined on Mon, Jul 25 2011, Posts 64

Synchron Player is definitely next-gen in terms of usability and playability. Synchron Yamaha CFX and Synchron FX Strings prove how great Synchron Player is, because not only both libraries take advantages of the features the player offers, but also the VSL team could test their editing with Synchron Player in parallel.

Synchron Strings I should be the same (conceptually), but maybe because it was developed ahead of the development of Synchron Player and on top they edited the Synchron Strings I samples to work VI/VI Pro, my guess is that really added complexity to the development process.

When VSL announced Synchron Strings I, I am sure VSL did not make the "legao re-invented" claim out of thin air. There must have been some "proof-of-concept" somewhere. If VSL is so close to the re-release of Synchron Strings I for Synchron Player, how come VSL cannot their original "proof-of-concept", i.e their original vision with us at this point?

Or the realization is so far off from the original "proof-of-concept" that it is not that much different from the VI/VI Pro version, so VSL just wants us to find out ourselves and leave the judgment to us.

I know this has been discussed over and over, but I just feel VSL could trust its customers (us) more that we are willing to workaround the shortcomings on the basis that VSL could be more frank to us, instead of portraying everything as "perfect" as it stands.

IMHO, Synchron series is not only a new product line, but also a new phase for VSL as a company. If they could be more transparent with their development and roadmap, it will be musch easier for people to take the risk to support them and embrace their vision. For an example, how many Synchron Strings libraries have they planned so far and what type of arts are included. We would probably like to know such info ahead of time. If tremolo sul ponticello is important to me, I would like to know whether it will be in Synchron Strings II or Strings V because that a big difference in terms of my financial commitment to the Synchron series.

If VSL does not know themselves, customers could only go on per-library basis. Then, what is the whole point of the series concept? Just a sharing of same recording venue/acoustical space, and mic mixes? Or it is more about loyalty building process - a co-investment by VSL and its loyal customers?

Posted on Sat, Jun 09 2018 09:53
by fahl5
Joined on Fri, Feb 04 2005, Göttingen, Posts 956

Be sure, that Synchron Strings I is not produced before the development of the Synchonplayer.

The first Idea for the Concept of Articulation-dimensions is already 5 Years old (I constantly botherd at that time most of the responsible VSL-Developpers with proposinmg that concept again and again after being a bit frustrated with the abilities to reasonably make use of all potential of the dimension Strings samples provided but the VI player does not allow to use as smart as I would like to have).

And the Synchon-Strings are from the beginning developed to be used in a Player with exactly that concept. But it is kind of the fundamental core librarie of the orchestra and they are right not to release anything without having solved all known issues.

http://libraries.resampled.de/index.php
four parallel interpretations of ambitious classical scores with up to twelve different Libraries

http://beethoven.resampled.de
currently the first four Symphonies of L.v.Beethoven completly recorded with the finest available orchestra samplelibraries (BBCSO, SSO, STO)

http://klassik-resampled.de
Currently 4330 mp3 with more than a whole Week (=more than 8 Days /=nearly 200 hours) of sample based interpretations of complete Scores from 7 Centuries
Posted on Sat, Jun 09 2018 10:49
by Michaël G.
Joined on Fri, Jan 25 2008, Posts 36

Originally Posted by: William Go to Quoted Post

the number of players is so huge in the Hans Zimmer strings that there will be absolutely no expression audible.  A huge generic sound.  That's what people want today? 

I must confess this is exactly what I think. Such an amount of instruments looks somewhat ridiculous to me, even compared to the largest strings sections playing in real orchestras.

Posted on Sat, Jun 09 2018 11:14
by fahl5
Joined on Fri, Feb 04 2005, Göttingen, Posts 956

I do not have necessarily a problem with the Idea that large sectionsizes might have a certain acoustic interesting aspect. Already Berlioz has mentioned that compared to a lage amount of soldiers which just put simultaneously their Rifle back in the the sand. a little noise in it self but an extraordinary impression when it is done by a whole company. Nevertheless I do not compose that often music for Rifles and Sand. But when it comes to chords and melodies, the larger a section the more languid it is in its reactions. And honestly all what I have heard from HZS-Demos seem to prove that.

http://libraries.resampled.de/index.php
four parallel interpretations of ambitious classical scores with up to twelve different Libraries

http://beethoven.resampled.de
currently the first four Symphonies of L.v.Beethoven completly recorded with the finest available orchestra samplelibraries (BBCSO, SSO, STO)

http://klassik-resampled.de
Currently 4330 mp3 with more than a whole Week (=more than 8 Days /=nearly 200 hours) of sample based interpretations of complete Scores from 7 Centuries
Posted on Sun, Jun 10 2018 00:43
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5604

Good point fahl5 to bring up Berlioz!  I love Berlioz, but  I thought of that also, when hearing of the numbers. The problem is when recording, rather than hearing live, that size does not translate into "epic" but rather simply no character. All the expressiveness of strings becomes lost when the ensemble is too large.  That is why string players always like playing chamber music - their own individual tone can be heard.  And this is the principle of Dimension Strings that is beautifully fulfilled in that library.  Synchron is also of a size that will retain the expressive quality.  

Posted on Thu, Jun 14 2018 14:40
by Spoilsman
Joined on Sun, Oct 23 2016, Posts 22
Remember how a couple of weeks ago we all got uptight and excited at the same time? I’m not working for a few months, so I’m cool with the delay, but my guess is that Synchron Strings I with Synchron Player won’t be ready and bug-free until just about one year after we pre-ordered. I mean, it might come out this week, but that’s been said so many times I’m just expecting a November release.
Posted on Thu, Jun 14 2018 15:54
by muziksculp
Joined on Fri, Oct 03 2003, U.S.A., Posts 420

Hi,

A status update by Paul/VSL of the Synchron Strings 1 Player release would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Muziksculp  

Posted on Thu, Jun 14 2018 19:41
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 12583

Hi, 

I believe that we can release this update next week. 

THANKS for your patience.

Best, 
Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Thu, Jun 14 2018 22:25
by Eloy Sherlock
Joined on Tue, Dec 04 2007, Valencia, Posts 24
Paul,

I know this is difficult saying next week,next week,next week.......
Building a new Synchron software platform is not easy.
Neither is it good for VSL reputation.
Allow us some insight into your struggles. This will go a long way as many of us are emotionally invested into VSL.

Thank you,
Eloy
Posted on Thu, Jun 14 2018 22:50
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 12583

Hi, 

Thanks for your understanding. It is not a pleasant situation, that's true. 

There are many things that can complicate software development, but I'm afraid I cannot share the details of Synchron Player in an open forum. Too much room for misunderstandings, and I'd rather focus on getting this product ready for you .

Best, 
Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Fri, Jun 15 2018 09:41
by Michaël G.
Joined on Fri, Jan 25 2008, Posts 36

Hi Paul,

I'm sure there are a lot of people here (like me) who are patiently and silently waiting for the player.

I don't mind having to wait some more because I'm pretty confident the resulting software will be stable, usable and worth the wait.

Cheers,
Michaël

Posted on Fri, Jun 15 2018 14:33
by Craig
Joined on Sat, Dec 31 2005, Posts 41

Paul,

Brings to mind a saying ... "do you want the fast answer, or the right answer?"  

Keep up the quality, as you have always done ... THAT is what keeps so many of us coming back for more and more libraries ...

Cheers,

Craig

www.craigsteffee.com
Pamlico Sound Sketches, Suite for Orchestra, available on CD and mp3
Posted on Sat, Jun 16 2018 13:29
by yilalatavsl
Joined on Tue, Nov 03 2015, Posts 41

Originally Posted by: Eloy Go to Quoted Post
Paul,

我知道下周说这句话很难.
构建一个新的Synchron软件平台并不容易。
这也不利于VSL的声誉。
让我们了解一下你们的奋斗。这将有很长的路要走,因为我们中的许多人都在情感上投入了VSL。

谢谢
Eloy

 

If you're not sure, don't say next week...

Explain the year!!!

What a shame, VSL!!!

Come out at the end of 2018, ridiculous??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Posted on Sat, Jun 16 2018 20:00
by muziksculp
Joined on Fri, Oct 03 2003, U.S.A., Posts 420

Originally Posted by: Paul Go to Quoted Post

Hi, 

I believe that we can release this update next week. 

THANKS for your patience.

Best, 
Paul

Hi Paul,

Thanks for the feedback.  Hopefully you will release it when it is finally ready for release, I don't take the next week promises seriously any more.  Waiting is just part of the process at this point. So.. Don't rush it if it is still not ready for release. 

I think the most important thing now, is that the new Synchron Strings 1 Player, when finally released, will be :

* Bug free, very stable, and efficient.

 * Offer improved Legato functionality, compared to Legato in VI-Pro 2 (Please Demonstrate this via videos) ! NOTE : If this is not going to happen, expect a lot of dissappointed customers. 

* Offer major workflow improvements  

And Please :

* Post new Video Tutorials of the Synchron Strings 1 Player in action. 

* Post new Audio Demos of Synchron Strings 1 produced using the new Synchron Player

Thanks,

Muziksculp 

Posted on Tue, Jun 19 2018 10:43
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 12583

Hello everybody, 

Today is the day! 
Synchron Player for Synchron Strings is ready for you! 

Next steps: 
- Download and install the latest eLicenser Control Center
- Download and install the latest Synchron Player
- Download and install the latest Vienna Download Manager
- Get your Library Download Files for Violins I Stereo and double-click the file to start the Download Manager - more files will be added during the next days! 

First Synchron Player Videos Tutorials are available on the Synchron Strings product page, with more to come!

And some FAQs to tackle possible hurdles right away.  

With best wishes from a happy Vienna Team!

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
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