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Does the Synchron Player support Auto-Divisi?
Last post Wed, May 30 2018 by TFIS, 26 replies.
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Posted on Thu, May 24 2018 09:41
by mobileavatar
Joined on Mon, Jul 25 2011, Posts 64

I would like to know if auto-divisi is currently supported by the Synchron Player?

If yes, does it work similar to VI Pro, only for stacked instruments? But how would stacking work in the Synchron Player? By enabling certain instruments in the Mixer mode (like the way FX String I works, as shown in the walk-through demo)?

Thanks.

Posted on Thu, May 24 2018 16:10
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 12987

Hi, 

No auto-divisi in Synchron Player at this point. 

Best, 
Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Fri, May 25 2018 02:24
by mobileavatar
Joined on Mon, Jul 25 2011, Posts 64

Originally Posted by: Paul Go to Quoted Post

No auto-divisi in Synchron Player at this point. 

I was prompted to think about the "auto-divisi" feature when I was watching the FX Strings I walk-thru video where Johannes Vogel was discussion how "tutti" (room-mix) and "solo section" (close-mic for each instrument group) can be achieved. It is indeed a very cool feature! Cannot wait to try it out how well it works in context.

Since Dimension Strings/Brass has the divisi feature (supported by VI Pro), I thought maybe there are extra sets of "close-mics" within each instrument sub-group that enables "auto-divisi", similar in concept to the "tutti vs. solo" in the walk-thru video.

If the feature is not currently supported, could VSL please consider to include it in the roadmap?

Like other people have pointed out, with so many great things VSL pioneered, one simply expects the Synchron series would build on top of its milestones.

Best regards

Posted on Fri, May 25 2018 06:00
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 12987

Hi, 

The recording process of Dimension Strings was completely different from the Synchron Series. The players were acoustically separated to get the best possible isolated sound with a DRY recording. 

Best, 
Paul 

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Fri, May 25 2018 07:34
by mobileavatar
Joined on Mon, Jul 25 2011, Posts 64

I understand 100% the two series are polar opposites in terms of recording and concept, but one would expect an essential feature like auto-divisi would have been supported by the engine.

Maybe I could address my concern differently: If VSL is going to release a Synchron Choir library today, do you think people would expect the Synchron Player/Library would have auto-divisi feature built-in?

I would think People probably would have similar sentiments towards a flagship Strings library.

Posted on Fri, May 25 2018 09:25
by TFIS
Joined on Tue, Dec 14 2010, Posts 106

Originally Posted by: mobileavatar Go to Quoted Post

I understand 100% the two series are polar opposites in terms of recording and concept, but one would expect an essential feature like auto-divisi would have been supported by the engine.

I don't think that it is possible to get a satisfying result with samples recorded in a non-dry environment.

Posted on Fri, May 25 2018 09:47
by fahl5
Joined on Fri, Feb 04 2005, Göttingen, Posts 956

Originally Posted by: mobileavatar Go to Quoted Post

I understand 100% the two series are polar opposites in terms of recording and concept, but one would expect an essential feature like auto-divisi would have been supported by the engine.

Maybe I could address my concern differently: If VSL is going to release a Synchron Choir library today, do you think people would expect the Synchron Player/Library would have auto-divisi feature built-in?

I would think People probably would have similar sentiments towards a flagship Strings library.

Both series (Dimension and Synchron) went in their special direction far beyond what you can get anywhere else. Each is kind of a flagship for a certain Concept of Orchestral -Sampling. Meanwhile the Synchronseries might wonderfully replace what the first VSL Orchestral Cube provided, but imho It would be wasting enourmous and great development if Synchron-Series would be also understood  as Replacement of the Dimensions-Series.

Moreover the Dimension-Series should made to an easy combineable complement to cover those demands that could not be satisfied with the section-wise recording of the current Synchron-Series. (with bringing it in the Synchron-Player)

(btw: before recording Synchron Choirs it would be much better to do the missing vowels for the exising musically wonderful VSL-Voices)

http://libraries.resampled.de/index.php
four parallel interpretations of ambitious classical scores with up to twelve different Libraries

http://beethoven.resampled.de
currently the first four Symphonies of L.v.Beethoven completly recorded with the finest available orchestra samplelibraries (BBCSO, SSO, STO)

http://klassik-resampled.de
Currently 4330 mp3 with more than a whole Week (=more than 8 Days /=nearly 200 hours) of sample based interpretations of complete Scores from 7 Centuries
Posted on Fri, May 25 2018 12:07
by mobileavatar
Joined on Mon, Jul 25 2011, Posts 64

Originally Posted by: fahl5 Go to Quoted Post

Both series (Dimension and Synchron) went in their special direction far beyond what you can get anywhere else. Each is kind of a flagship for a certain Concept of Orchestral -Sampling. Meanwhile the Synchronseries might wonderfully replace what the first VSL Orchestral Cube provided, but imho It would be wasting enourmous and great development if Synchron-Series would be also understood  as Replacement of the Dimensions-Series.

I would agree with you if there will be new developments to the Dimension series (I was hoping in vain that there would be aditional articulations for Dimension Strings. There is not even sul pont, or sul tasto in the current library. Dimension Strings is surely novel, but hardly flagship as it covers so little ground.)

Besides, we all know there is a very popular non-dry* library out there that supports auto-divisi.

*At least not as dry as the silent stage.

Posted on Tue, May 29 2018 01:33
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1743

Hi mobileavatar

There are always people who complain about technical possibilities of libraries that are not available or not are possible. This includes the topic Divisi. Sure, in a real orchestra, a register splits when two voices are to be played. But that does not have to be mandatory if you play the same section with samples. Solution: Play both parts twice with the same violins and that's it. As soon as the mix has more instruments, you hardly hear that anymore. BUT...
... Much more important is to do everything with the samples, so that music comes out and not a technical processing of notes. These "mistakes" are often much bigger than the technical limitations of samples. In other words, the divisi possibility of a library does not guarantee "musical music". Anyone who wants to make music with libraries must be willing to compromise on a lot. Samples in themselves are what they are: dead and totally limited. So with those few options you have to get along and make the best out of it.
Musicians can often live with it hard. Technicians always only see the limits.
Both extremes should keep their hands off samples.

Who accepts these "limitations" receives a whole symphony orchestra, which plays around the clock, almost everything, what one wants. And that's still super-fascinating, especially for an old man like me who could only dream of such things for years. 

Suggestion: Go to my website and listen carefully to all the pieces on the right. Ask yourself if "Divisi" would have been necessary in one of the pieces. Believe me, there were often places played twice with the same instruments. I never cared for such things as "Divisi". I just always tried to make music.

All the best

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Tue, May 29 2018 02:22
by mobileavatar
Joined on Mon, Jul 25 2011, Posts 64

Originally Posted by: Beat Kaufmann Go to Quoted Post

There are always people who complain about technical possibilities of libraries that are not available or not are possible. This includes the topic Divisi. Sure, in a real orchestra, a register splits when two voices are to be played. But that does not have to be mandatory if you play the same section with samples. Solution: Play both parts twice with the same violins and that's it. As soon as the mix has more instruments, you hardly hear that anymore. BUT...

Hi Beat,

Thank you so much for your sharing and detailed explanation. I really appreciate.

If I use the output of the sample libraries as my final product, I would totally agree with you. There are certainly many workarounds to overcome the limitations, and as musicians/compsoer, we should work with those limits.

Maybe a little bit of my background would help: I compose as a hobbyist and work with VSL libraries mainly through Sibelius. For me, the main purpose of using the libraries is to build mock-up to test and confirm my ideas. For example, on the options I could distribute and balance the splitting of a single pitch to hexachords/octachords across the strings section? Sure, I can approximate and guess, but that will defeat the purpose of making realistic mock-ups.

In fact, for my purpose, the approach of the Dimension series is/was perfect! I was soooo excited when it was released back in 2012 (6 years ago!!), and Andi (VSL) did such a great job, created the sound sets for Sibelius. Not only auto-divisi is supported by VI, but also the playback is right within Sibelius. Users do not even need to create their own sound sets (like they need to do for many other non-VSL libraries).

But unfortunately, development has been on hiatus forever. The current Dimension Strings library, for instance, does not even cover sul pont and sul tasto. I understand it takes tons of work to sample additional articulations per string per player!! Yet, if that was the approach VSL adopted, they should bring the libraries to "completion", up to a certain level.

When the Synchron Strings was claimed to be "Strings re-invented", I naturally redirect my expectations to the Synchron, hoping that I could enjoy the same divisi feature right within Siblieus. Now, divisi is not supported, what will users like me do in Sibelius? Probably we will keep using Dimension Strings instead.

I like the Synchron CFX a lot, and I like what I hear with the Synchron FX demos, but Synchron Strings... People have been discussing the legatos are steps backward. To me, the workflow is even a bigger issue.

Now, I just wish there will be more supporters for the Dimension series to keep its development rolling.

All the best!

Posted on Tue, May 29 2018 03:29
by stephen limbaugh
Joined on Tue, Feb 23 2016, Los Angeles, Posts 278

I'm inundated with work and experiments at the moment, but I would LOVE to hear someone take the time to take the 2nd violins and experiment with the panning and microphone mix to render a convincing divisi.

Similar to the Synchron CFX, I imagine that you can recreate a different orchestra set up (ex, 1sts and 2nds at 9pm and 3pm) by messing with the panning in the Synchron Player.  Then, you automate the mic mix to get a more "detailed" close/softer sound.

Maybe Paul can inform us if this is a viable solution, or if not, then someone can spend a couple hours with some Ravel or Mahler and get creative. 

2019 MacBook Pro, 8 core i9, 32gb RAM. Heavy Digital Audio PC slave, 6 core Xeon E5-1650, 128gb RAM. Logic 10.6.3. Big Sur & Windows 10.
Posted on Tue, May 29 2018 03:43
by mobileavatar
Joined on Mon, Jul 25 2011, Posts 64

Yes, I would also love to experiment once the player is released.

Posted on Tue, May 29 2018 06:00
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 12987

Hi, 

You will have  a lot of options there. 

Best, 
Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Tue, May 29 2018 06:52
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1743

Originally Posted by: mobileavatar Go to Quoted Post

Hi Beat,

Thank you so much for your sharing and detailed explanation. I really appreciate.

If I use the output of the sample libraries as my final product, I would totally agree with you. There are certainly many workarounds to overcome the limitations, and as musicians/compsoer, we should work with those limits.

Maybe a little bit of my background....

Hello
Thank you for the extensive publishing of your background.
I see that the technical side may be more important, just like trying to make music that sounds as real as possible.
But even if you are a composer ... My music examples should show that 2-voiced instruments do not sound much different than if they were split on Divisi. The Vienna Instrument Pro can play all articulations in multiple voices, even legato articulations. No problem to compose more than one note at a time ...

Take it easy - in the end, the music counts.
Nobody but you knows where the technology was not quite in line with reality ...
By the way: If you want to make a further step forward in terms of reality, then split the two sides:

  • "Sibelius for the score"
  • DAWx for the perfect sound.


Best regards
Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Tue, May 29 2018 08:10
by fahl5
Joined on Fri, Feb 04 2005, Göttingen, Posts 956

Just to summarize the Subject in my view:

- The Synchron is obviously set up to replace in long term the current VI-products.

- The Synchron Series has just started o be released.

- When the Cube was released we also haven't even had 2nd Violins later we got the Chamberstrings which at that tiime was also understood as part of the answer how to realise smaler Stringssection within the Orchestra for instance for any kind of divisi.

- Synchron Series has already 2nd Violins. But I would not at all be surprised if sooner or later we might also get kind of Synchron Chamber and Solostrings as we have got for the Cube. And at least at that point most of the complaints about "divisi" will probably stop even if I do have ssome doubts if there ever might be something like a Synchron-Dimension Series which reaches  the same level of possible individualisation of the Dimension-Series in the Synchron-acoustic.

So just keep in mind the Synchrroon Series is just beginning and we still have the Dimension series and are able to combine both.

http://libraries.resampled.de/index.php
four parallel interpretations of ambitious classical scores with up to twelve different Libraries

http://beethoven.resampled.de
currently the first four Symphonies of L.v.Beethoven completly recorded with the finest available orchestra samplelibraries (BBCSO, SSO, STO)

http://klassik-resampled.de
Currently 4330 mp3 with more than a whole Week (=more than 8 Days /=nearly 200 hours) of sample based interpretations of complete Scores from 7 Centuries
Posted on Tue, May 29 2018 08:25
by TFIS
Joined on Tue, Dec 14 2010, Posts 106

There is no "auto divisi" in VI.

It doesn't distribute the players to the number of voices played.

Posted on Tue, May 29 2018 08:32
by LAJ
Joined on Sun, Dec 13 2009, Posts 538

 

I still disagree with "replacement" and I'm sure that the SY-String concept is different fro VI ... and that we will see this even more obvious soon ...

BUT I thought after the FX-release it was pretty clear where the journey goes?!?

Amen, I'm telling you ...

SY STRINGS 1

1. Synchron Strings I
2. Synchron FX Strings I
3. Synchron Divisi Strings I ... not for all Sections (I think f.ex. Basses will be kept out) but for quite some

SY STRINGS 2

from here starting with Consordino - concept

At Westlake Pro Stefan Steinbauer spoke about customers costs at Synchron Stage ... 10 K € for 3 hours Strings-play as far as I remember.
These customers and VSL are of course both highly interested to make the SY-Strings as complete as possible ... as soon as possible.

(And I like it. I hope that VSL keeps continuing with Strings)


Shiba Inu & Doge ... to the 🌙🚀🚀

Posted on Tue, May 29 2018 08:42
by mobileavatar
Joined on Mon, Jul 25 2011, Posts 64

Originally Posted by: TFIS Go to Quoted Post

There is no "auto divisi" in VI.

By VI, I also meant VI Pro.
There is:
https://www.vsl.co.at/community/posts/t33171-Dimension-Strings---auto-divisi#post209112

Posted on Tue, May 29 2018 08:45
by mobileavatar
Joined on Mon, Jul 25 2011, Posts 64

Originally Posted by: Paul Go to Quoted Post

No auto-divisi in Synchron Player at this point. 

Best, 
Paul

Hi LAJ,

I wish what you predicted is true, but from Paul's earlier tone, I am not sure even the divisi feature is in the road map at this point.

Posted on Tue, May 29 2018 08:46
by fahl5
Joined on Fri, Feb 04 2005, Göttingen, Posts 956

Originally Posted by: TFIS Go to Quoted Post

There is no "auto divisi" in VI.

It doesn't distribute the players to the number of voices played.

(Ok excuse me if I do answer perhaps a bit arrogant)

- If a "competitor" sell "2part divisi" it cant be more than to have the ability to use two smaller sections instead of a large one. And that will not make you able to play chords and all Voices will have the amount of Stringplayers this Chord would allow played by one Section. But if you are looking for more try Kirk Hunter as far as I know he has wonderful "scripted Divisi" . (OK lets stay serious:)

Sorry but in general a stringsection is not divided for someone who is used to play some chords on his midikeyboard but in most cases not more than in two smaller parts of the section. I personally would  not need any "Auto"-Function to program that at all. Imho this "Auto-divisi" seems to be more or less kind of a buzz-word with not that real musical relevance.

In Short: 

Smaller sections for Divisi ? I think that seem to me quite probable sooner or later, 

"Autodivisi" ? who really needs that in real music??

http://libraries.resampled.de/index.php
four parallel interpretations of ambitious classical scores with up to twelve different Libraries

http://beethoven.resampled.de
currently the first four Symphonies of L.v.Beethoven completly recorded with the finest available orchestra samplelibraries (BBCSO, SSO, STO)

http://klassik-resampled.de
Currently 4330 mp3 with more than a whole Week (=more than 8 Days /=nearly 200 hours) of sample based interpretations of complete Scores from 7 Centuries
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