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How to access MIDI PORT 2 of VEP from Logic
Last post Fri, Nov 12 2021 by Macker, 34 replies.
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Posted on Tue, Feb 12 2019 22:55
by Adia
Joined on Sat, Feb 06 2016, Posts 126

Hello, I am buliding a template and I need your knowledge about HOW FROM LOGIC PRO can I access

MIDI PORT 2 of VEP and channel 1. When I open VEP plugin in Logic I can only switch channels, but they all work at the MIDI PORT 1 of VEP

Posted on Wed, Feb 13 2019 04:42
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 812

In the future, hopefully there will be an AU3 version of the VEP plugin that will work in Logic.  VSL says they are working together with Apple on this, changes are probably needed in Logic to fully support that.  They've been talking about it for years, so don't wait for it.

At present, VSL has a temporary solution which is that CC99 messages can be sent in front of each note message, which indicates what port to use for the next note.  This is intercepted by the VEP plugin and converted into port routing before sending to the VEP server.

VSL made a logic template that uses an environment macro to make this automatic, but it has bugs due to bugs in Logic's enviornment layer and has caused most people to give up on using it.  

I have made an improved template that works around those Logic bugs and it seems to work pretty good.  But you can't send too many simultaneous midi notes through one Logic channel, LogicPro tends to choke if you do.  Its probably ok to use a few ports with 16 midi channels as long as you're not using them all at the same time.  I can play a 100 channel renditition of ET score (from VSL's downloads section), using this template through 4 VEP instances, so each VEP instance is using 2-4 midi ports full of channels, but none of them flood their channel all at the same time with midi traffic.  Seems to work fine.

Download my version of the VSL macro template here:  https://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=137085

Posted on Wed, Feb 13 2019 13:41
by Adia
Joined on Sat, Feb 06 2016, Posts 126

OMG What a shame! Everything what cuases problems with Logic is its OldFashioned enviroment. I like logic but as I have now big templates organised this way I am trying to switch to Cubase.

2 things I can see here, I am not sure if I am right, but I can see the big advantage: In logic when I open 16 midi channels using one VEP instance there are those MIDI tracks (channel strips?)  that have ALWAYS the same audio output, so it is so problematic to mix such music, as all 16 channels are on one audio output.

Am I right in Cubase it is not a problem at all?

The only thing I miss is Logic Drummer.

Posted on Wed, Feb 13 2019 15:36
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 812
There are both pros and cons to every daw, including both logic and cubase. While cubase supports Vst3 and easily can handle multiple midi ports, logic has way better support for articulation’s, for example. There are numerous pros and cons.

The environment can be a blessing when it works, or a curse when you’re forced to use it because some other painfully obvious feature is missing.

It is what it is.

In answer to your question logic can handle multiple audio channels coming back from a single instance. You set them up as aux channels in logic. Read the manual.
Posted on Wed, Feb 13 2019 15:38
by Adia
Joined on Sat, Feb 06 2016, Posts 126

Thank  you - I know the solution about AUX channels, but this is terrible and not so convinient as in Cubase. I am new to Cubase but surprised that I had not to do anything there to mix it properely. Am I right? Not adding any Aux channel strips

Posted on Wed, Feb 13 2019 16:18
by Adia
Joined on Sat, Feb 06 2016, Posts 126

Is there a way to DISABLE instance in the VEP? Or only DISABLE CHANNELS which is not the way I want to go...

Posted on Wed, Feb 13 2019 16:19
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 812

If you love Cubase you should probably use that.  They all have pros and cons.  I am not expert about Cubase so I can't comment about it.

Logic handles multiout instruments just fine.   You have to setup VEP properly though and then hit the + button the logic mixer to see the extra channels.  they appear as AUX channels.  This is how all multi-output AU instruments work in LogicPro.

Posted on Wed, Feb 13 2019 16:23
by Adia
Joined on Sat, Feb 06 2016, Posts 126

Thank you for your reply. Yes,  but please just Set on the 1st Aux Channe Violin, and on the Second Cello.

Record music and then please try to mix the music and record autiomation. When yuo move the Fader of Chello at the same time the fader of Violin is going down. So what, than you need to create the NEW AUX TRACK from tha channel strip? Not so great, you have already double more tracks than you should have....

Posted on Wed, Feb 13 2019 16:44
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 812

Well there's always Cubase...

Posted on Thu, Feb 14 2019 16:19
by cojoncio
Joined on Tue, Apr 20 2010, Spain, Posts 78

The AU protocol is a real PITA in Logic. Even with the enviroment workaround (which is not fully functional), you still get a limited number of outputs from VEP. That's why I gave up.

As Dewdman says, there is always Cubase. And other options too. I went for Digital Performer. MAS protocol is rock solid and allows to have not 32 but 48 MIDI ports from each instance. Not bad for huge templates.

 

Hope u can get your issue resolved soon

Master: i9 7900x OS X 10.13.6
Slaves: i7 3930k. Windows 7 - i9 10980XE Windows 10
DAW: Digital Performer
Posted on Thu, Feb 14 2019 18:10
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 812

While I am also looking forward to AU3 version of VEP plugin so that Logic can behave like Cubase and DP in terms of many midi channels into a single VEP instance, I do not think the current situation with Logic is so terrible as is often portrayed.  

LogicPro has many benefits for orch work that beats the others.  For example, articulation handling in Logic is far superior to DP and and a little superior to Cubase, with its articulationID support.  Cubase's expression maps are poorly thought through and have their own limitations, though its better then nothing as is the case with DP.

Logic comes with leaps and bounds the best software instruments of any DAW by a long shot.  

Logic has the Drummer module, which is stellar.

Logic has the Scripter plugin which is invaluable for orch work, another reason why its articulation handling is so much better then the competition.  

I personally find Logic's GUI to be the most pleasing to work with compared to pretty much all DAW's out there, but that is a personal preference.  

The enviornment, while a mystery thing understood by few, is very useful and valuable at times in ways that the other DAW's simply can't compete.  

Logic supports 3rd party midi fx plugins as inserts, something no other DAW really provides...only complicated midi routing within the DAW enables that sort of thing...again..highly useful for articulation handling as well as other tasks.

Well the list could keep going, but you get the point.  Logic is also a fraction the price of the other DAW's and they haven't charged for an update in many years.

So...  The fact that we are limited to needing a few VEP instances instead of being able to have one huge one...its a limitaiton yes, but its not the end of the world, its still very usable.  A lot of Logic/VEP users are even content to literally have one VEP instance for every instrument for various reasons they prefer!  I am not one of those people.  But half a dozen VEP instances is not only very manageable, but in some cases it can be a better way to work because you can submix each VEP instance per section and lots of times its actually quite a bit easier to work that way, mix the sections in VEP rather then bringing every channel back to Logic to mix it there, especially if you are combining it with MirPro.  When you need to isolate one of the channels in Logic, its not that hard to send that channel to different outs in VEP and bring it into and AUX channel in Logic for whatever processing you want to do in Logic.  

The multi-port macro that I fixed does actually work pretty darn well, I would not categorize it as "not fully functional".   Logic is however limited in that it can't process too many simultaneous midi events through any one instrument channel at a time.  It tends to choke on it, regardless of whether you are using the environment macro or not..that is the case.  Maybe Apple will fix that limitation someday and its definitely a limitation, but its also not really a deal breaker, just use half a dozen VEP instances and in my experience it works fine.

You can even divide up a project into maybe 7-10 VEP instances, and not use the enviornment macro at all..don't use different ports...just 16 midi channels per VEP instance.  That also works perfectly fine and can support a large orchestral mixdown without problem.

where people usually want to have more multi-port capability is when trying to create huge templates with 500 or a thousand armed and ready instrument channels/tracks ready to record to as inspiration strikes.  And truthfully Logic is not well suited for that workflow for several different reasons, both DP and Cubase are better suited for it, but still...it is very well possible with the multi-port template (my version) to set up ginormous templates, I provided there a template ready for 768 tracks already setup for you, go try it.  It works fine!  You just can't actually sequence too many midi events simultaneously through any one VEP instance or Logic will choke on it.  But usually that is not what you do with a large template.  You ahve 1000 tracks armed and ready and then you use maybe 100 of them for any given project and at any given instant there might be a few dozen actually playing at the same time.

To be fair, DP has other interesting benefits over the competition also, some of the best tools for film hitpoint calculation, for example, streamers, punches, etc..  The whole chunks feature is great for multiple CUES in one project file and V-racks are useful, though less relevant if you're using VEP.  Some other nice featuers too, but for me ultimately, its entirely limited in terms of articulation management and has some other peculiarities that have driven me crazy for years and make LogicPro a breath of fresh air to work with.

I am just learning Cubase, and it has its own advantages as well, though for me personally, it is still falling behind LogicPro for orch work because of the articulation management issue.  Cubase at least is very trivial to have thousand track templates.

These are just my own thoughts, everyone will have their own...we can go round and round like countless internet threads talking about why we like one vs the other.  They all have some pros and cons.  Pick the one you like the most and just figure it out.  If you like DP or Cubase, then great!  Use it!  However, Logic should not be dismissed entirely..it can also function entirely well and many people out there are using it in a professional film scoring capacity quite well for various reasons that is what they choose...even without the AU3 plugin which VSL has been talking about literally for years.  I'm sure that will be released some day, but until then...you gotta make due with what is there now.

Posted on Thu, Feb 14 2019 19:24
by cojoncio
Joined on Tue, Apr 20 2010, Spain, Posts 78

Originally Posted by: Dewdman42 Go to Quoted Post

The multi-port macro that I fixed does actually work pretty darn well, I would not categorize it as "not fully functional". 

 

Please, excuse me if it sounded I was criticising your environment. I cannot talk about something I haven't tried. Bear in mind English is not my mother tongue so maybe I didn't explain myself properly. I do apologize.

I was talking about the one provided by VSL which, even though is good, is not as useable as other workarounds.

 

I've been korking with Logic since version 3 and I used to love that program. However every update I've installed seems more focused on EDM and other type of music more than film composing, where DP shines, at least to me. Don't misunderstand me. I've done quite a few film scores with Logic and was able over the years to accomodate it to my workflow. If the VST3 issue were resolved before, I'd still be composing with Logic.

 

No DAW is perfect. It's juts a matter of enjoying their goods and stand their bads

Master: i9 7900x OS X 10.13.6
Slaves: i7 3930k. Windows 7 - i9 10980XE Windows 10
DAW: Digital Performer
Posted on Thu, Feb 14 2019 19:48
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 812

Originally Posted by: cojoncio Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: Dewdman42 Go to Quoted Post

The multi-port macro that I fixed does actually work pretty darn well, I would not categorize it as "not fully functional". 

 I was talking about the one provided by VSL which, even though is good, is not as useable as other workarounds.

 

The one provided by VSL is fundamentally broken due to bugs in Logic's enviornment that they did not account for when they created it.  A lot of people tried it out and sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't and nobody really understood why not..and VSL I think eventually just gave up interest on trying to fix it, and instead has been talking about AU3 someday.  Frankly I do not think the one from VSL should even be on their site now, its fundamentally broken.  I don't know anyone that is using it because of that.

I hacked their macro and changed it in a way to work around the logic enviornment bug in question(related to note off events).  In addition to that I added a scripter script which takes care of forwarding ALL NOTES OFF to all vep ports when you hit STOP on the transport, which is critical to avoid hanging notes.  since then I haven't had any hanging notes as many people complained about the macro from VSL.

Quote:

I've been korking with Logic since version 3 and I used to love that program. However every update I've installed seems more focused on EDM and other type of music more than film composing, where DP shines, at least to me. Don't misunderstand me. I've done quite a few film scores with Logic and was able over the years to accomodate it to my workflow. If the VST3 issue were resolved before, I'd still be composing with Logic.

 

I do not think Logic is focus on EDM at all, though it can certainly be used for that too.  I do think Logic is geared more towards musicians writing music and DP is more geared towards engineers mixing music.  They both go both ways, but I feel DP leans more towards satisifying the engineer in me and Logic satisfies the musician in me.  For me the music writing is way more important and the mixing tools in Logic are more then enough to get that done too.

Quote:

No DAW is perfect. It's juts a matter of enjoying their goods and stand their bads

Exactamente!

Posted on Wed, Nov 10 2021 20:26
by roger.rudenstein_2567
Joined on Tue, Jun 17 2003, Posts 13

Hi,

You report that you set up large multitrack multiport templates in Logic Pro using VEP.

I tried this using the VSL supplied multiport template but it only records audio.  I need to record the midi itself so I can edit using the piano roll.

When I record arm each track all I get is one midi stream recorded per port with all the instruments on it.  This is not helpful.

Do you know how to accomplish multi port midi recording in Logic?

Posted on Wed, Nov 10 2021 20:42
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 812

LogicPro in general, which is kind of complicated for recording multiple midi channels at the same time...and basically that is just hard to do in LogicPro regardless of whether you are using any of the aforementioned multi-port templates.  Even just on a single port, LogicPro has been fiddly for recording multiple midi channels to different tracks in one pass.

Prior to LogicPro's latest version, which requires Big Sur, there was definitely no way to record more than 16 channels in one pass onto tracks that will see them by port.   That simply was not possible at all regardless of what multi-port work around template you might be using to be able to PLAYBACK lots of midi tracks to a single VePro instance using multi ports.

Version 10.7 that requires BigSur (which I don't have), does have some new track attributes for specifying the input midi channel (and possibly port if you're using AU3?) and so theoretically it might be possible with that version of LogicPro, but I can't confirm nor deny because I'm still on Catalina.  

Posted on Thu, Nov 11 2021 12:52
by Macker
Joined on Tue, Aug 21 2018, London, Posts 382

Roger, am I right in assuming your Logic version is pre-10.7?

If so, have you switched on "Auto demix by channel if multiitrack recording", in the File/Project Settings/Recording settings window? That will ensure that once you stop recording your multiple MIDI streams, Logic will atomatically separate the various recorded MIDI tracks such that each single-channel part is placed on the relevant template track. And if that has been activated, have you ensured that the channels on which your various MIDI controllers transmit to Logic's Sequencer input, match the various VEP template channel numbers you've chosen to be played by your MIDI controllers?

I've often seen other Logic users setting up Transformers in the Environment to make it more convenient to assign the required track-channel numbers to inbound MIDI controller data; and that's what I've always done too. But if that's not a preferred option for you, then you'll have to assign the internal MIDI channel number on each of your MIDI Controllers, in order to match the channel numbers in your template that you wish to be played and recorded together.

I've done a quick test using one of VSL's Beta AU3 templates with Logic 10.4.8, just to confirm that Logic's auto-demixing feature works as it should with AU3. And it does. See attached screen grab of my test. I ran the test specifically because I couldn't remember if the auto-demix facility works across VEP port boundaries; but as you can see from the test results, it does. It appears that MIDI channel numbers 1 to 16 are all that Logic needs for the auto-demix function, regardless of MIDI input ports or track AU3 output ports.

In the test I made 5 separate recording passes, playing in random garbage on 4 different MIDI controllers in every pass, on input MIDI channels 1, 2, 3 and 4. In each recording pass the 4 MIDI controllers recorded into a different selection of tracks in the VSL template, but keeping to (for convenience) template channels 1, 2, 3 and 4 in every pass. The last 2 passes each covered more than one VEP port. When each pass ended, the recorded MIDI channels were separated and placed correctly in their individual tracks by Auto De-mix, as seen in the screen shot.

File Attachment(s):
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Posted on Thu, Nov 11 2021 15:38
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 812

Demix will only handle per-channel...so up to 16 channels..  There is no way to have some external midi fed into Logic across multiple ports and record to more than 16 tracks in one pass...

All midi funnels through a single sequencer object in the environment...all midi ports merge into a single input port...the sequencer itself loses any ability to know which port each event came from...it can only use the midi channel to split the recording back out to up to 16 tracks.

Version 10.7 now includes the ability for each track in the sequencer to specifically identify which port and channel to use for input.

Posted on Thu, Nov 11 2021 19:06
by Helmholtz
Joined on Fri, Aug 27 2021, London UK, Posts 15

Hahaha, how many arms and legs do you have, dewdman42? Do you perhaps have a one-man-band type of MIDI controller rig with loads of levers and bits of string attached from every conceivable movable part of your anatomy to a vast array of MIDI controllers? Because you do seem to be getting a tad shrill about old Logic's 16 MIDI channel concurrent live recording limit.

Don't you think that over the many many years this limit has been there in Logic, either E-magic or Apple would have responded if hordes of users had complained, as you seem to be, that there's something desperately  inadequate about this 16 channel live recording limit?

Logic 10.7's very nice new MIDI input port & channel assignment faciliities in the Track Inspector address the old inconvenience that arose mainly when using a template in which hundreds of instruments are crammed solidly into every available channel, such that recording multiple channels of live MIDI using auto-demix typically necessitated having to change the MIDI controllers' internal MIDI channel numbers to match the template MIDI channels - for users who didn't fancy venturing into the Environment. But now it's a doddle. Even so, I'm still trying to conjure an image of you wearing your one-man-band MIDI controller rig and playing many dozens of MIDI channels into Logic all at once ... hahaha.

Posted on Thu, Nov 11 2021 19:09
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 812

Yes we agree, I said that already...twice.

Just trying to answer the question posed by @roger.rudenstein_2567 which seemed to be if its possible to record a multi port onto many tracks at once.  it is not possible prior to LogicPro 10.7.  And I don't have 10.7 to test out if that will work either, but probably yes it would.

Posted on Thu, Nov 11 2021 19:10
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 812

ps - last time I checked I have two arms and two legs...

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