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How to access MIDI PORT 2 of VEP from Logic
Last post Fri, Nov 12 2021 by Macker, 34 replies.
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Posted on Thu, Nov 11 2021 19:14
by Helmholtz
Joined on Fri, Aug 27 2021, London UK, Posts 33

It looks to me very much like Macker has addressed Roger's very practical enquiry pretty thoroughly already - and backed it up with test results! I don't get why your tirade was necessary after that.

Posted on Thu, Nov 11 2021 19:17
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 914

What "tirade" are you talking about?

Macker did not actually offer a solution for multi-port recording of midi, which is what I have clarified.  Demix can only address 16 midi channels.  I have explain this all already above.  You seem more intent on creating conflict on the forum so I will just leave the discussion there for now...  @roger.rudenstein_2567 should check out LogicPro 10.7 if he needs to record multi ports in one pass..  otherwise...can't do it.  Not with Demix either. 

Posted on Thu, Nov 11 2021 19:26
by Helmholtz
Joined on Fri, Aug 27 2021, London UK, Posts 33

What did you mean by "if its possible to record a multi port onto many tracks at once"? I don't think that's what Roger was asking. That's simply not a problem in old Logic. (Each of my MIDI controllers comes into Logic on a different port - how about yours?) Rather, wasn't it about how to get multiple MIDI channels recorded simultaneously across multiple ports in a multi-port VEP template? Macker's test result proves it is certainly possible. What was it you wanted to prove or disprove, exactly?

Posted on Thu, Nov 11 2021 19:29
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 914

Originally Posted by: roger.rudenstein_2567 Go to Quoted Post

When I record arm each track all I get is one midi stream recorded per port with all the instruments on it.  This is not helpful.

Do you know how to accomplish multi port midi recording in Logic?

Posted on Thu, Nov 11 2021 19:36
by Helmholtz
Joined on Fri, Aug 27 2021, London UK, Posts 33

You need to explain yourself more accurately, clearly and precisely, dewdman42 - to yourself if no one else. You're not actually making sense here. I've said already the problem's been solved. So I'll ask again - what are you trying to prove or disprove, exactly?

Posted on Fri, Nov 12 2021 00:04
by roger.rudenstein_2567
Joined on Tue, Jun 17 2003, Posts 13

So using the AU3 Beta you were able to record midi on multiple Ports/tracks at the same time?

Or did you have to do this by recording the tracks on Port 1 then recording Port2 etc. due to Logic's limitations?

Posted on Fri, Nov 12 2021 00:55
by Macker
Joined on Tue, Aug 21 2018, London, Posts 563

Roger, yes to your first question; no to the second (which limitations of Logic?). In my test, for each recording pass I armed 4 MIDI tracks together and hit Record, then played something on each of my MIDI controllers, playing a handful of notes on each of my two keyboards at the same time, and hitting single notes on the other two controllers in between. All 4 MIDI input channels were in Record mode at the same time throughout each of the 5 recording passes shown in the screenshot of my test.

Just to be crystal clear: when you say "ports" here, I take it you mean VEPro ports, as labelled in the template - am I correct? So yes, you can see in the screenshot where Auto-Demix separated and placed each of the 4 input MIDI channel regions immediately after each recording pass - which was correctly on the template port/channel tracks I had armed and recorded into simultaneously in each of the passes. So in pass 4, I was recording simultaneously to channels 1 and 2 in VEPro Port 2 and to channels 3 and 4 in VEPro Port 4. And in pass 5, I was recording simultaneously to Chan 1 in Port 1, Chan 2 in Port 2, Chan 3 in Port 3, and Chan 4 in Port 4.

So indeed, simultaneous multi-channel, multi-port MIDI recording was demonstrated. I kid you not. (Pay no heed to Smiffy, he gets the complicated stuff wrong a lot but will never admit it. Lol.)

I used VSL's single instance template for the test, and didn't alter any of the track labelling. And I checked that the ports and channels I had armed prior to each pass were indeed responding correctly in the VEPro Server. The only thing I did after Auto Demix had done its job was select the new MIDI regions together and in their right-click menu "Name and Colour", I selected "Name By Tracks" (but it appears I forgot to do that for the 1st pass.)

Have you tried as I suggested? If so, what happens?

"Music embodies feeling without forcing it to contend and combine with thought, as it is forced in most arts and especially in the art of words."
~ Franz Liszt
Posted on Fri, Nov 12 2021 01:40
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 914
All input midi ports are merged into one set of 16 midi channels as if they were all one port. This point needs to be clarified. Yes if you are careful not to record from more then 16midi channels at once, and also you need to make sure that you don’t try to record the same midi channel from two different ports at the same time because prior to logicpro 10.7, all mid ports are merged into one before hitting the sequencer. As I said already in my first response which has somehow garnered a series of insults towards me, the demix feature in logicpro can also be fiddly the way it works and you need to understand how the sequencer allows midi events o channels to fall down through the enabled tracks. As long as you don’t need to record more then 16 tracks at a time and no overlapping midi channels on the different ports then it can be done for sure.

If you use logicpro 10.7 then you don’t have to worry about it so much because it has the ability to specify the midi input port and channel for each sequencer track so then you could record as many as you want at once. I don’t personally have 10.7 to test it but that is my understanding. We can presume also that when you use that approach then the environment cabling before the sequencer is being skipped. I would have to try it to find out though.
Posted on Fri, Nov 12 2021 02:27
by Helmholtz
Joined on Fri, Aug 27 2021, London UK, Posts 33

Here we go again Hahaha.

Dewman42, there is a now a very clear pattern. If you can't or won't admit you were just plain wrong in the face of clear technical evidence, that's one thing. But why launch into these long dogmatic obfuscations apropos of nothing that does anything to develop, let alone resolve the matter at hand in any seriously technical or even practical way; not to mention your attempts to smear everyone and everything that doesn't align perfectly with your opinions? Why not simply accept the technical evidence that's as plain as a pikestaff for all to see, and peacefully go about your business?

Posted on Fri, Nov 12 2021 03:36
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 914

If you think I am wrong about something I am not sure what that is.   Just trying to contribute to the discussion.  Why do you feel you need to attack me personally?

@roger.rudenstein_2567 - hope it makes sense what I have been trying to clarify?  

Quote:

Or did you have to do this by recording the tracks on Port 1 then recording Port2 etc. due to Logic's limitations?

Recording each port on a seperate pass would certainly work!

As I said in my last post, all midi input ports are merged into one port before hitting LogicPro's sequencer tracks.  (prior to LogicPro version 10.7).  So what this means, for example...is that if you are using port 1, channels 1-4, and port 2, channels 5-8, then yes you can record them all in one pass to 8 tracks.  They will all be merged into a single midi port...(with 16 midi channels).  Then in the track sequencer area, you use the Demix feature that Macker mentioned to direct those 16 midi channels to the specific track where each should be recorded.

However if you were trying to record port 1, channels 1-4, and also port 2 channels 1-4...then that would not work because it would be merged into a single midi port of channels 1-4, 4 tracks.  You could of course record them in two passes.

Make sense?

As I said in my first post, LogicPro is not really setup right, prior to v10.7, for multi-port midi recording, mainly because all midi ports are merged into one prior to hitting the tracks area.  If you are smart about the way you do it, in terms of which midi channels you do..then you can make several passes, as Macker also described, and get it in there, but not all at once, is all I was trying to say earlier.

Furthermore, the way the Demix feature works, you need to be aware there is some poorly documented automatic behavior in the way LogicPro records the tracks in that mode.  Basically if you have, for example, 8 tracks record-enabled, and Demix turned on..then the midi events come into the sequencer during recording and for each event it searches down through the list of record-enabled tracks, in the order they appear...looking for a track that has the correct midi channel specified.  The first one to match, it gets recorded there, (including if that track is set to ALL?, not sure).  If they get all the way down to the bottom track and it didn't find a match, that event will be sent to the currently selected track, and if that track is not set to ALL, then the recorded event will also be changed to that midi channel of that track.  As I recall.  I pretty much avoid using Demix mode myself I find it too fiddly personally with that automatic behavior.  

You can do a google search and find frustrated LogicPro users trying to make complete sense out of it at times.  it is not hard to get confusing results if you are't methodical in your approach to using that mode carefully, understanding the way that it works.  Most people complaining about it on the net, don't understand all these nuances and just get frustrated thinking it is buggy.  its not actually buggy as far as I know, but because of this built in implicit behavior that someone decided on long ago...it does some automatic behavior that many people don't realize will be happening, which leads often to confusion.  I generally just try to avoid using it and I usually don't need to record more than one midi port or channel at a time anyway.

LogicPro 10.7 has been updated to be more like Cubase, Studio One, DP and numerous other daws where you can explicitly specify the midi input port and channel for each track, in the sequencer area.  Then its easy, the midi ports aren't merged..the tracks get their input data directly from the ports to begin with, and you can explicitly configure each one and feel confident each one will be recording the events coming from the port and channel you want for that track.  In my mind that update to LogicPro 10.7 was even bigger then Dolby Atmosphere!

There is an old internet post that explains in more detail the automatic behavior of Demix...I will try to find it...

Posted on Fri, Nov 12 2021 03:48
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 914

here is a good article about Demix mode:  https://www.macprovideo.com/article/logic-pro/logic-pro-x-a-guide-to-multitrack-midi-recording

I stated one thing wrong above, will correct it.  If midi events come into the "demixer" on a midi channel that does not have a record-enabled midi track, then it will be sent to the currently selected track, regardless of whether it is recording or not.  Also if that particular track is not set to ALL, then those recorded events will also be re-stamped with that track's assigned midi channel.

Posted on Fri, Nov 12 2021 14:18
by Helmholtz
Joined on Fri, Aug 27 2021, London UK, Posts 33

Have you quite finished insulting the intelligence of forum users and Logic users, and smearing 'old' Logic's capabilities as a DAW, dewdman42? And do you think we all believe that the only way we stand a chance of understanding the technical issues here is to be read into your top secret knowledge base of absolute truth (notwithstanding that Jedi know only the Sith deal in absolutes)? Spoiler alert! It's all there in the name of this feature of 'old' Logic:-

demix BY CHANNEL. 

But just so you don't feel left out, we'll disengage our Warp engines for now and see if we can manage to simplify the enormously complicated and profoundly technical concepts involved.

    Auto demix BY CHANNEL cannot demix multiple MIDI input streams if there's no difference in their channel number. Wow! Now there's a revelation! Not.

     Auto demix BY CHANNEL is pointless if a single channel input MIDI stream is routed to multiple MIDI destination channels.

     Auto demix BY CHANNEL is pointless if multi-channel input MIDI streams are routed to one destination.

There, I think that pretty much nails it. Not exactly startling news for most DAW users, I suspect.

Over the past couple of decades some Logic users have been applying perfectly legitimate workarounds that let them use the auto demix BY CHANNEL feature as they wish. To call these workarounds "fiddly" is as relevant as saying to a violinist that he or she should change to playing the piano because bowed instruments are too "fiddly". Is there any serious DAW that doesn't have numerous opportunities to get "fiddly" with it? Aren't those opportunities an important part of what endears users to their DAWs, and let them put their skills, craft and art to best possible use? Your smear tactics are obvious and tiresome, but they do let us gauge your standards of argument.

You didn't orginally mention auto demix as a posssible solution to Roger's problem. But once Macker introduced the idea you went ballistic trying to prove that "no way" could it possibly work. Erm ... yes way. It does work. And it can be made even more useful with two kinds of time-honoured workarounds, which I won't go into now; I've already made enough essential points for one post.

Posted on Fri, Nov 12 2021 17:51
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 914

@roger.rudenstein_2567 - this article just hit my inbox today....relevant for you I think....

https://whylogicprorules.com/record-multiple-midi-instruments-updated/

Posted on Fri, Nov 12 2021 18:37
by Macker
Joined on Tue, Aug 21 2018, London, Posts 563

Roger, it's best to ignore all the waffle in this thread, including mine, since your very specific area of intended application wasn't declared or described by you here at all. I assumed you knew that Logic's live MIDI recording capabilities have (until very recently) always been only about capturing performances, not about bulk MIDI transfers as I now see that you wish to do (having just read you post in a different forum here).

The answer to your query is now in your thread in the notation forum.

"Music embodies feeling without forcing it to contend and combine with thought, as it is forced in most arts and especially in the art of words."
~ Franz Liszt
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